Weird fun tournament deck vs the current field..

[Mindstab_Thrull]

OK.. I'll try this again..
*crosses his fingers that this is better for content than last attempt..*
Re: http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12512 , posted 12 May 2003 by CrazyCarl. From what I see, it was designed by him and Bryce and piloted by Ed Demicco, who managed T8 in Waterbury with it.

Decklist at that point:
4x Force of will
3x Counterspell
1x Mana drain
1x Misdirection
4x Acculumlated Knowledge
3x Intuition
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Fact or Fiction
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Future Sight
1x Zur's Weirding
1x Balance
3x Swords To Plowshares
3x Replenish
1x Seal of Cleansing
1x Humility
1x Moat
1x Words of Worship
2x Duress
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Yawgmoth's Will
4x Flooded Strand
4x Tundra
3x Underground Sea
2x Island
2x City of Brass
1x Strip Mine
1x Wasteland
1x Plains
1x Lotus
1x Libary
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Pearl
1x Sol Ring

Sideboard
2x Exalted Angel
2x Morphling
3x Ophidian
4x Meddling Mage
1x Circle of Protection: Red
1x Seal of Cleansing
1x Celestial Dawn (8blastplan Tek)
1x Sacred Ground (smokestack Tek)

I'm considering trying a deck like this for Type 1, and I'm wondering how it would fair against the current metagame.  Could this handle Oath, Mindslaver, and everything that's running rampant in Type 1 right now? It faced Gay/R, The Rock, 3x TnT,  and Keeper to get into the T8, losing only to the first TnT deck, and then to Grow in the finals due to some bad play errors.

[Nightwind]

I'm considering trying a deck like this for Type 1, and I'm wondering how it would fair against the current metagame. Could this handle Oath, Mindslaver, and everything that's running rampant in Type 1 right now? It faced Gay/R, The Rock, 3x TnT, and Keeper to get into the T8, losing only to the first TnT deck, and then to Grow in the finals due to some bad play errors.

You can look at a deck and say "Well, it has StP(s) and Seal of Cleansing so it must be good against Oath." And then say, "It has Humility and Moat so it must be good against aggro."

Well, therein lies the problem with what you are asking us here. You want to know how it would fair against the current metagame. You need to build the deck and then test it for yourself. This will give you answers to many of your questions.

1st, it will answer your question as to how the deck would perform. Then before you even ask what to sideboard in certain situations you would already know this from the testing that you have done. I think if you go through this process you will instead be posting your results and how well the deck has done for you. Instead you are just asking us to do the work for you.

[Moxlotus]

You do realize that there are 3 counterspells and 1 mana drain right?  You do realize this deck is a joke right?  As a side note: Hundroog and Sedge Trolls would help the deck out...

I agree with Nightwind that if you would test the deck out for like an hour you would realize the "quality" of the deck and not need to make this post.

[Mindstab_Thrull]

Moxlotus and Nightwind:

Well, here's part of the problem. I'm not very familiar with Type 1 as a tournament format. I mean, I have a good idea what's banned and restricted, but as for any of the actual decks out there.. I'm still at a loss. That's kind of why I'm asking for opinions on what an updated version of this deck would be like. And I've always been drawn to odd decks - ones that you don't plan to see in a tournament, or even in casual often. Weird.. I've been around the game a long time but hardly ever paid much attention to the tournament scene, except for a stint for about a year or so when I played T2 regularly at the local shop - which I don't anymore cuz the guy that runs the shop for tourneys is a dickwad. And like T2 affects T1 much most of the time anyways..

As for:

You can look at a deck and say "Well, it has StP(s) and Seal of Cleansing so it must be good against Oath." And then say, "It has Humility and Moat so it must be good against aggro."

Considering I'm still not familiar with what the major deck types in Type 1 are, I'm not in a position to be able to make those kinds of statements. Thus why I ask people on this board how it would fair, because then hopefully they will also say why, and it will sink in better.

And yes, I noticed the single Mana Drain, but only tonight when I had the deck list at my job.. I'll have to ask Carl about that.

[Necrologia]

The best way to figure out what's good and what's not is to see what's been winning tournaments lately. Just check the Vintage Tourney forum and check out the various top 8 lists.

Currently that's Control Slaver/Titan, Oath, STAX, Doomsday, and 5/3. If you head a tournament you'll likely many more deck types than that, those are just the matchups you're going to want to have played against and have some plan for.

[kl0wn]

You do realize that there are 3 counterspells and 1 mana drain right?  You do realize this deck is a joke right?  As a side note: Hundroog and Sedge Trolls would help the deck out...

I agree with Nightwind that if you would test the deck out for like an hour you would realize the "quality" of the deck and not need to make this post.

Actually, quite the contrary...

The fact that the list is suboptimal due to lack of available cards, yet still managed to make Top 8 as second seed means the opposite of what you're saying.

In short, you are wrong. Please work on your reasoning skills. Thank you.

[Nightwind]

Moxlotus and Nightwind:

Well, here's part of the problem. I'm not very familiar with Type 1 as a tournament format. I mean, I have a good idea what's banned and restricted, but as for any of the actual decks out there.. I'm still at a loss. That's kind of why I'm asking for opinions on what an updated version of this deck would be like. And I've always been drawn to odd decks - ones that you don't plan to see in a tournament, or even in casual often. Weird.. I've been around the game a long time but hardly ever paid much attention to the tournament scene, except for a stint for about a year or so when I played T2 regularly at the local shop - which I don't anymore cuz the guy that runs the shop for tourneys is a dickwad. And like T2 affects T1 much most of the time anyways..

You originally stated that you were considering trying a deck like this for Type 1 and were wondering how it would fair against the current metagame. I was serious with my reply. It wasn't meant to be a joke or even a snide remark, and I think you know that. If that's not what you were asking then I totally missed what you meant by your post in the first place and you can ignore anything I've said.

The first thing you need to figure out is what the metagame is for your area. The metagame is going to be different from one region to the next. Just because Oath is fairing well on the East Coast, it doesn't mean that the local kids have everything they need to make an optimal MeanDeck Oath deck and compete in your area.

How are we supposed to tell you how this deck is going to fair in your metagame? That's what I was going for in my first reply. Find out what your matchups are actually going to be and playtest them. Build the deck and bring it to a tournament. Then, if you still have questions and need input for certain matchups come back and post your results and the concerns that you have with your build. Without anything to work with except a decklist just shows that the effort wasn't there to find out for yourself. I think if you like the deck's design and want to play it then by all means do so. But unless everyone on this message board plays in the same meta, then you'll need to do a lot of the testing yourself. Just because Fish might not be taking tournaments on the East Coast, it doesn't mean they aren't doing it over-seas... because they are.

[Mindstab_Thrull]

Nightwind: Yes, I understand you were serious. The problem is I've played so little tournament Magic period, so I can't simply look at a deck and say well, because it has X, Y, and Z, it will handle certain decks. I've started understanding why certain cards are in this deck, but part of it is "is there enough to handle what it needs to?" And that's something I can't answer.

As for the metagame: I was looking at what it would face in general, first off. Does it have what it takes to beat the top decks in Type 1 right now? I'd have to go on a scouting mission and find out who plays what, and for Type 1 right now, that means I have to go into downtown Toronto and stop in at like, a dozen different stores. Sounds like a full weekend to me Unless there's some people on here that are from the area that are willing to give some insight into what the key decks to deal with in Type 1 in Toronto are right now. That would help immensely.

As for testing: Apart from heading into to Toronto (no car/license), there's no real decent shops in this area to playtest, with the possible exception of Skyfox in Oshawa (I'm east of Toronto). Anyone I know that has any tournament experience has also been out of the game for a couple years or so, and there's only one competitive deck out of everyone I know - an R/B Nether Void/LD deck. I guess he'd be my first stop to see if I can beat it. But after that - then what?

[Xman]

The fact that the list is suboptimal due to lack of available cards, yet still managed to make Top 8 as second seed means the opposite of what you're saying.

One Top 8 appearance does not make the deck.  Yes, there are suboptimal cards in this deck, an dmost likely it is lack of avialibility & the competition is building from similar card pools  With tweaking, this deck could get better.  However, in its current state, it is not as good as it could be.

And as for moat, there is a saying about that card.  "Moat stops Pyschatog, until the tog player cares."

[kl0wn]

I never said that the deck is good in the current environment, just that it was anything but a joke. It was actually quite good at the time.

I understand that one Top 8 doesn't make a deck good, but on the flip side of that, just because a deck doesn't get netdecked doesn't make it bad. Weirding didn't make more Top 8 appearances than that one because it wasn't played for more than that one tournament. It was set aside in favor of "Rectal Agony" because Weirding's main (and probably only) player wanted to play a deck called "Rectal Agony".

And the Moat wasn't there to shut down Psychatogs, it was...wait...why am I even getting into any of this? I've been playing Type 1 since the dawn of time; don't start lecturing me on fundamentals. I think I'm just going to point to the "Vintage Adept" thingy above my avatar now and tell you to shut it. Bitch.

[Methuselahn]

Thrull dude:

I would suggest a search on Replenish decks, since that is what it looks like this deck wants to be.   As far as Weirding goes, the key to using it right is to make sure you will draw more threats than your opponent.  I wouldn't rely on Words of Worship.  I've always believed that you should not rely on a 2 card combo with Zur's Weirding.

I think I'm just going to point to the "Vintage Adept" thingy above my avatar now and tell you to shut it. Bitch.

 Brilliant argument.  Nobody should argue with the sacred fraternal order.    

[Mindstab_Thrull]

As far as Weirding goes, the key to using it right is to make sure you will draw more threats than your opponent.  I wouldn't rely on Words of Worship.  I've always believed that you should not rely on a 2 card combo with Zur's Weirding.

You think two-card combos where one is ZW is a bad idea? I dunno.. I kinda like the idea of denying your opponent ALL their threats. Of course, for combo-based decks, you can probably shut them down for a cost of like, 8-16 life.. Oath will cost you what, 12? and especially if they're running Orchard.. they'll have to Waste their own Orchard to stem the tide, else be overrun with tokens

You also said about making sure you draw more threats than your opponents. It's got about a dozen cards of draw/search including YWill (not counting the deck-thinning Fetchies), so it should be able to fetch its answers fairly quickly.