[deck] W/U fish for the oath/welder meta.

[capnproton]

I was thinking about running this deck for the scg p9 tournys.  With oath and welder making up most of the feild in the first one I played in I thought that fish could swim though the meta like it alwase does.  Just for referance and a starting point here is the 8th place decklist from the 3ed tourny.

8th Place - Clarence Li
4 Spiketail Hatchling
4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
4 Curiosity
2 Stifle
3 Meddling Mage
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Null Rod
2 Faerie Conclave
4 Tundra
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Voidmage Prodigy
1 Strip Mine
1 Black Lotus
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Mox Sapphire
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Island

Sideboard
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Energy Flux
2 Disenchant
2 Chill
2 Suq'Ata Firewalker
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Null Rod

nothing stands out that muich about the decklist.  but I would say that 2 cards should be thought of in this deck.  1) annul 2) Seal of Cleansing.  Annul b/c it is a good card in general in a tempo deck from countering early moxen and it is an all star in this meta where you can take out a oath or a trinisphere or so on.  Seal of cleansing for the same end.  but this also has grater synergy with standstill than disenchant.  I have no real clue what to take out though.  Also rootwater thief could be a good card to add with its help in the tog and the oath matches.  Also if anyone knows why firewalkers are in a lot of these decks I would love to know.  I cant realy think of the deck that the are good against.

[Mikey]

1) Fish have some problems against Oath if they do not run any bounce or removal spells. You won't need annul because the null rod takes care of artifacts.
2) Disenchant is an instant meaning you can cast it at end of turn. This is very useful because of your counterspells.
3) Rootwater thief is too slow. In a game they really count, they would be killed long before they can remove all threats.
4) The firewalkers are there to take out welders. They don't die to fire/ice and can even shoot at the players as a final killing method.

[capnproton]

1) Fish have some problems against Oath if they do not run any bounce or removal spells. You won't need annul because the null rod takes care of artifacts.
2) Disenchant is an instant meaning you can cast it at end of turn. This is very useful because of your counterspells.
3) Rootwater thief is too slow. In a game they really count, they would be killed long before they can remove all threats.
4) The firewalkers are there to take out welders. They don't die to fire/ice and can even shoot at the players as a final killing method.

1)so annul only counters artifacts eh?  what about taking out an oath?  isnt that good?  and null rod doenst turn off trinisphere or sphere of res.  and what about the fat creatures?  null rod doent take care of them.  Stp does though and that is in the deck what other removal would you suggest?

2) why whould I need to leave open mana for counters when non of the counters in the deck besides my thought to add anull cost nothing?  and It has beter synergy with standstill.

3) ok.  it may be I'm not convinced without testing.

4) k that explains it.  ok but I think there must be somthing less jankie in U/W that can do it.

[Mikey]

You have creature removal round 1 against Oath. Annuls can be useful in the board, but not maindeck. They can perhaps replace the disenchants. I've played U/R fish and I liked that deck a lot. That is until i got Slaver to play with.
I think this deck is more powerful that the version with red splash. You have better chances to take out bigger creatures.

so annul only counters artifacts eh? what about taking out an oath? isnt that good? and null rod doenst turn off trinisphere or sphere of res. and what about the fat creatures? null rod doent take care of them.

Null rod it supposed to shut down the artifact mana. You have wasteland to deal with workshops and removal for their creatures. Trinisphere is not a really big threat once you learn how to deal with it. And you have meddling mages to shut down some of their most annoying spells. Feel free to tech this deck to suit your meta, but I think this is one of the strongest builds to deal with Welder decks and Oath. I'm not sure about the sideboard though. Chill? useless against oath and workshop. Would rather have graveyard hate etc... Also, if you are expecting a lot of back to basics in your meta, a single plains would have been welcome in this deck providing you have 4 flooded strands.

[Gabethebabe]

Why would you ever play Budde when you can play Pikula for the same price and not worry about the rather steep UU activation cost?

Against Oath you should not board in creature removal. You need two of them to take out your opponents fatties. A better idea is to prevent Oath triggers from resolving, either Annul or Seal are adequate. Meddling Mage ain´t bad either Waterfront Bouncer could be a good idea as well.

[Frappie]

A friend of mine tested Annul over null rod and found that it destroyed his opponents that were playing workshop or oath. So much so that one of his opponents was convinced that he had preboarded and needed to see the decklist to be proven wrong. Annul gives a better fighting chance against oath. What's null rod supposed to do? Shut down their artifact mana? oh no not that, hold on, whats null rod supposed to do against 5/3 when they cast 2nd turn jugz? or first turn CoW, or 3Sphere. IMO I think that Null rod is outdated and should be played in the board only to be brought in against Slaver.

[Covetous]

Annul is a strong card in Fish decks.  Seal of cleansing is also good, for the reasons already mentioned.  The idea of using no null rods is interesting, but scary because it eliminates one aspect of your mana-denial plan, shutting off moxen.  That's not the only use of the Rod, but it certainly is one of the more important ones.  In UR, you could add in an extra mox monkey for that purpose, but not in UW.  As previously mentioned, Kai seems weak--MedMage would seem to be stronger.  Also, MD firewalker or Old Man (even better IMO) might be a nice edge vs. anything with welders or other small creatures (mirror, etc.).  I still haven't decided whether or not I favor the single CoW maindeck--it costs 3 and you won't set up any sort of lock soon enough to be relevant.  I'd consider cutting the faeire conclaves for islands, cutting Kais and CoW for the MMage and 2 firewalker/old man.  I prefer annul or more likely seal instead of stifle.  Null rod should probably stay because it's the card that has traditionally made fish good.  That might change, and may no longer be true for UR, but for UW it probably is still true.   I like Seal over Annul because it can deal with threats that have already landed, and you don't need to keep mana open for it.  Seal is also better than Dis-E because it cannot be misdirected and can be saved until it is needed.  It's a tempo card.  People may choose to play around it allowing you to own them with tempo.  Of course, Annul is a turn 1 solution to 3sphere and is pitchable, so I would certainly consider it a close call.  Rootwater thief is considered too slow--an investment of 2-3 mana per turn simply isn't worth it.  I would consider 4x extract in your board, however, if you fear doomsday or oath...

[capnproton]

thanks for the input.  I too think that kai definatly can be replaced.  I thought that it was bad but I couldnt find anything to replace it.  Old man seems realy good.  It also avoids fire/ice and lavamancer but just from the size of his ass.  he can be bolted but he is a nice guy to have main.  medmage is good soo good that I think he should be uped to 4 but takeing out null rod I think is folly.  It slowes the game soo much and helps the welder game that it is needed.  I agree that CoW doesnt do too much that late and drawing it even with the great abount of card drawing.  I think that extracts are needed esp with doomsday being the 5 proxie praze of many people.  and extract beacon is good.  Firewalkers I think do serve a place in the sb and chill to take power out of stupid red burn or zoo.  which I see as bad matchups.

main
-2 Voidmage Prodigy
-1 Crucible of Worlds
-2 Stifle
-1 null rod

+1 med mage
+2 old man of the sea
+3 annul

sb
-2 disenchant
-1 energy flux

+1 null rod
+2 seal of removal

just what I could think of now but I know that it could be better.

[j]

-2 Stifle
-1 Crucible
-2 Voidmage

+2 StP (!)
+1 Meddling Mage
+2 MisD / Disenchant / whatever

I Wonder what I am doing wrong but I never have a blue open to stop anything of importance with stifle (save smokestack). The Crucible does absolutely nothing in this deck. The way I get it fish is not supposed to lock anyone and Disenchant would be a lot better at fighting opposing Crucibles. Crucible (or B2B or Bloodmoon) should not, however, be a big problem. Add a plains as Mikey suggested. I am currently running 4 Flooded Strands and 2 Windswept Heaths and getting a turn 2 mage with just basics out is easy.

By the way give me one (1) good reason not to run 4 swords.

[capnproton]

just a quick responce.  you dont need to run 4 stp b/c of combo decks.  doomsday its a dead card and thats realy bad vs. a deck like doomsday.

[j]

How have old men and Annuls been working against combo? I just feel that StP is The reason to splash white. It is true that both Annul and old men pitch to FoW and that old men can do some serious beatdown against combo . Swords are just too good most of the time.

Sideboard question: Have you tried running Serenity over Energy flux?

[capnproton]

ok old men arent realy needed md.  I find now that with the mages I dont realy have the "I dont have enough beats" problem that I thought I was going to.

annul takes out mana accel essential for combo to beat aggro or aggro/control.  

I'll give the 4x a shot but I think that 3 or 2 main is better.

[Falc]

If I really wanted to hate on Oath and to some extent Welder, I'd run this creature suite:

4 Lavamancer
4 Rootwater Thief
4 Spiketail
3 Waterfront Bouncer

Meandeck Oath scoops to Waterfront Bouncer in game one.  If it resolves you win.  That's all there is to it.  Alternatively, a first turn Thief is also very bad news for Oath since it only takes two hits to remove all their win conditions.  Against non-Oath decks, you'll rarely use his ability.  Just suit him up with Curiosity and go to work.

Bouncer is also good against any deck that likes to cheat fat creatures into play on the cheap, like Welder decks for instance, and is also a very annoying tempo-naught against random aggro decks.

Cloud of Faeries just doesn't excite me anymore and I think that slot is better filled with Thief or even Meddling Mage.

- Falc