[Discussion] Will the Change in the Legends Rule Affect T1?

[Smmenen]

T1 is currently characterized by intense mana denial and spell denail.  Cards of this stripe include Wasteland, Trinisphere, and even Null Rod and Spiketail Hatchling.  Decks from Fish to Mono Blue try to prevent the opponent from doing anything relevant.

The Legend Rule has now been changed as explained by Mark Rosewater here:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/mr139

The rule will take effect with the new set on Oct. 20th.  

What are some common interactions?  

- Tolarian Academy.
If your opponent plays their own Academy, you can now play your own and destroy both.  Maro isn't clear if there is a brief window to activate it first, but this will come up with:

- Mindslaver
The most popular Legenday Arifact.  Previously simply playing your own Slaver prevented your opponent from Welding in theirs.  Having an active Welder and a Slaver in the yard did the same thing.  How will the new rule affect this card?  

Other Legends that are played in type one:

- Karn,
-Memnarch

How will this affect those?

[The Atog Lord]

When a legend comes into play, it destroys all copies of that legend in play, including itself.

According to the exact wording, Legends will never be in play. If I just play an Academy, it will throw itself into my graveyard, even if no other Academy is in play. I assume this was a typo on his part.

Moreover, I'm thrilled to hear that they are moving more towards a flavor-based theme and away from the awful mechanic-based theme. I've been hoping for this for years.

[theorigamist]

Assuming that was a typo, and the new legends rule only affects the second instance of a legend coming into play, I like the change.  I don't think it changes many of the cards you mentioned except for Academy.

Assuming there will be time to respond to the CIP destroy effect, you would just activate Slaver, then let their Slaver die, then ride your Welders to victory.  You'd do the same with the other legendary artifacts.  In short, as far as artifacts are concerned, I think this just makes Welder a little more important.  I think the new rule will be more important if they introduce some powerful legendary lands or non-artifact creatures.

[Gabethebabe]

I don´t believe it will be a CIPT effect. I think it will stay a SBE, to make sure you can´t play a second Academy and quickly tap it for mana.

[Jebus]

Maro's words were poorly used and easy to take out of context if applied literally.

The new rule is still a state-based effect, and does not "destroy" the legends, it just puts them into the graveyard.

And it only matters if there are two or more of that legend in play.

[BurningIce]

I believe this rule change takes the Legend idea out of flavor.  It made sense before, as there's only one Rubinia Soulsinger, so if she's in play already, you can't summon her again.  The new rule makes no sense flavor wise.

[Machinus]

This is a very good idea for pushing legends in standard. I was REALLY worried when they said this set had a lot of legends...I was imagining a really twisted environment where whoever wins the roll plays their japanese rebel legend first and therefore wins...this makes the block playable. It also allows them to design much more powerful cards for us, since they will be much weaker in the standard environment and the small pool.

And, I can cut lingering mirage from my Academy list. I always hated that card.

[Klep]

I don't see this having too much effect on Type 1.  The Slaver mirror will change slightly when it comes to playing Mindslaver, but Academy isn't nearly as critical as it used to be.  For it to really make much of an impact we'd need to have a Legend good enough to be played in multiples that you aren't sacrificing at first opportunity.

[mrieff]

I don't see this having too much effect on Type 1.  The Slaver mirror will change slightly when it comes to playing Mindslaver, but Academy isn't nearly as critical as it used to be.  For it to really make much of an impact we'd need to have a Legend good enough to be played in multiples that you aren't sacrificing at first opportunity.

I agree. Mindslavers tend to be used immediately after casting. 2 Academies in play will happen more often though. The rule should have a minor impact on T1, unless the CoK block brings us several amazing and widely played Legends.

I do think that the new rule makes more sense though, both from a play mechanics and from a flavor perspective. The rule will remove some randomness in a Lin-Sivvi kind of metagame, because casting the Legend first is not longer better. (by the way, god forbid that CoK will be remotely similar to MBC )

[Matt]

I believe this rule change takes the Legend idea out of flavor.  It made sense before, as there's only one Rubinia Soulsinger, so if she's in play already, you can't summon her again.  The new rule makes no sense flavor wise.

Not really. Consider:

"George B., Loremaster taps all his lands and summons the mighty SOL'KANAR THE SWAMP KING to do his bidding. The geas George has placed on the well-muscled lord compels him to walk over and smack his opponent, John K.

But wait! John, Wizard Supreme has a trick or two up his sleeve! By a quick and nuanced arcane sigil, he attempts to summon the Swamp King to do HIS dirty work! The two competing magical influences cancel each other out, and with George's magical energies no longer binding him to the dueling plane, Sol'Kanar is returned to his beloved muck."

[BurningIce]

Matt: Nice story.  Yeah, alright, in those terms, it doesn't sound so bad.  All the other explanations I've heard were speaking of Time Paradoxes or something equally silly.

[Methuselahn]

For a set that's based around flavor, I really like this new mechanic.

420.5e If two or more permanents with the same name have the supertype legendary, all are put into their owners’ graveyards. This is called the “legend rule.� If only one of those permanents is legendary, this rule doesn’t apply.

Hmm.  So, if only one of those permanents, of the same name, is legendary, both reamain in play?

So lets say I make my Lord of the Pit ledgendary with some fancy new Champions card.   Then I make my other Lord of the Pit ledgendary too.  They both die???

Can I hope to see some artifact that makes things Ledgendary?


Oh.  I think the new ledgendary rule will have an impact on Tolarian Academies.  Crucible brings it back, so it won't be a dead card anymore.

[jpmeyer]

Damn, now Unnatural Selection isn't a good sideboard card in the Counter Rebel and U/G Madness mirrors :<

[Jebus]

I think they'll avoid letting us mess with the Supertype for a while.

If anything, just to keep up from having more than one Krark's Thumb in play at one time (which doesn't really cause too many problems, but some people might not get it).

However, there is room in there for this to happen.

[Matt]

Taking all bets as to whether 'arcane' spells are the long-awaited legendary spells. Also, who thinks there might be legendary enchantments in store later in the block?

[Jebus]

Taking all bets as to whether 'arcane' spells are the long-awaited legendary spells. Also, who thinks there might be legendary enchantments in store later in the block?

Regarding Arcane spells...I hope they're some kind of Legend, because I just got confirmation on this thing:

Cranial Extraction
B3 -Rare
Sorcery -Arcane
Name a nonland card. Search target player's graveyard, hand, and library for all cards with that name and remove them from the game. Then that player sheffles his or her library.

I may just be a little weird today, but this effect seems huge.  Better than Cap at any rate.

Regarding Legendary Enchantments...yeah just got confirmation on those too...

Hondon of Cleansing Fire
W3 -Uncommon
Legendary Enchantment - Shrine
At the beginning of your upkeep, you gain 2 life for each Shrine you control

Source is MTGnews, and Rancored_Elf has confirmed their authenticity.

[Matt]

MATTOWNED, but I wonder how the legendary-ness of arcane spells will work? It can't be "you can cast this only once per game" because of that card that lets you return arcane spells to your hand. Maybe only once per turn, or they're auto-restricted to one per deck, or only one particular arcane spell, but you can have four copies of it...?

[Jebus]

MATTOWNED, but I wonder how the legendary-ness of arcane spells will work? It can't be "you can cast this only once per game" because of that card that lets you return arcane spells to your hand. Maybe only once per turn, or they're auto-restricted to one per deck, or only one particular arcane spell, but you can have four copies of it...?

Yeah who knows.

Then again, it may just be a weird subtype thing with other cards that interact with them.

But, that would be boring.

I'm banking on auto restricted.  However, the existence of low power and common Arcane spells seems to counter this theory.

We'll have to wait and see.

[Klep]

Lobotomy: {2UB} |Sorcery| Target player reveals his or her hand, then you choose a card other than a basic land card from it. Search that player's graveyard, hand, and library for all cards with the same name as the chosen card and remove them from the game. Then that player shuffles his or her library.


This has been around for years, and doesn't ever get used.  Is this new card really so much better that it warrants auto-restriction?

[Jebus]

This has been around for years, and doesn't ever get used.  Is this new card really so much better that it warrants auto-restriction?

Not really, but we don't have much to go off other than speculation on what Arcane really means.

And I'd have to say this card is a bit more powerful than Lobotomy.

[Hi-Val]

Lobotomy: {2UB} |Sorcery| Target player reveals his or her hand, then you choose a card other than a basic land card from it. Search that player's graveyard, hand, and library for all cards with the same name as the chosen card and remove them from the game. Then that player shuffles his or her library.


This has been around for years, and doesn't ever get used.  Is this new card really so much better that it warrants auto-restriction?

This is like mirage tapfetches vs. fetchies.

This card has numerous advantages: it's one color, you don't have to just prune their hand, it's gamewinning...

Oh, that last part. IMO, Arcane is not something that's going to be Legendary. I could be wrong. I wouldn't run more than one of these anyway, but the potential to just name:

Welder
Tog
Exalted Angel
Tendrils of Agony
Mindslaver
Sundering Titan

And win because of it is pretty good. Also, you can name Yawg Will and get that problem out of the way if you need to. I honestly see this as an incredibly powerful card in T1 that will be highly played. Four mana is pretty cheap when it wins you the game. Look at Mindslaver for all the proof you need.

[Jebus]

More and more, as I'm seeing more cards,  I'm starting to think that Arcane is just a subtype with no special rules to it.

Cranial Extraction is definately looking to be a chase card.

[theorigamist]

I like Cranial Extraction a lot, basically because I liked Lobotomy, too.  Lobotomy was just too narrow in use, but Cranial Extraction will see play in combo for sure.  Lobotomy couldn't steal counters, because they'd just counter it.  But this solves that problem at least marginally.  Also, 3B is pretty easy for Belcher.

[Dr. Sylvan]

I like Cranial Extraction a lot, basically because I liked Lobotomy, too.  Lobotomy was just too narrow in use, but Cranial Extraction will see play in combo for sure.  Lobotomy couldn't steal counters, because they'd just counter it.  But this solves that problem at least marginally.  Also, 3B is pretty easy for Belcher.

Why would combo play a four-mana card instead of really winning? :/

Control and aggro-control will play it pretty widely, however.

[Machinus]

Keeper, meet SB4L.

[theorigamist]

Why would combo play a four-mana card instead of really winning? :/

I'm not saying it would break Belcher or anything.  But in a deck that's basically just cheap mana and big spells, I'd love to pull out all the Trinispheres or Forces or Null Rods post sideboard and then go off with some extra safety.  I would definitely test it, anyway.

[ELD]

Just for the record, I hate the new legend rule.  I didn't pay much attention to it, but Mindslaver being legendary has come up so much it's inconcievable.  Tinker for slaver has killed my slaver way too many times.  It has completley changed the slaver mirror.