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Author Topic: Why 60 cards is NOT always optimal  (Read 5886 times)
Machinus
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« Reply #30 on: January 26, 2005, 10:25:25 am »

Quote from: dandan
The best example I can think of the highlight this point of view is a SotF deck that wants a utility creature to handle every opportunity but needs a set number of mana/utility cards to function. In this case the added card has a chance of being 'chosen' far higher than merely drawn and although a lower 'power' card than cards already in the deck, would be THE optimal card in some circumstances. Such a case leaves a pile of poo on statistical probabilities as the probability of drawing the additional card vs other cards is not that relevant and the idea of rating the 61st card in power relative to the other cards is also rather hard to judge.


This is actually a legitimate consideration in determining deck size. Unfortunately, although it is the best possible argument in favor of adding cards, it is still not optimal to play with more cards than you have to.

Even in a deck with such a 'toolbox' engine and varied answers/threats (which means singletons are much more likely to be drawn and played, and their power/effect multiplied), and where the deck contains a number of single cards which may be completely useless in multiple matchups, playing with more cards is still to your disadvantage. The fundamental arguments have been repeated several times, so I will apply them to this matchup.

1) Your chances of drawing your engine are reduced.
2) All the arguments already mentioned about the increased inconsistency in drawing mana and disruption.
3a) Your chances of drawing a completely useless, very specific answer increase.
3b) Your chances of drawing redundant answers increase.

You may reject these arguments as bad deckbuilding, but in fact good deckbuilding would mean having the fewest number of the most versatile and widely applicable answers that exist - which means consolidating your toolbox. Adding an extra card is strategic failure in this model.

Also keep in mind that SotF is probably the only card that is good enough in Type 1 to make this question even worth debating in the first place - and TnT hasn't been good for years.
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« Reply #31 on: January 26, 2005, 12:48:11 pm »

Machinus, your argument that Survival of the Fittest is probably the only card that makes the toolbox argument relevant to Vintage is a sound argument. The matter of relevance, however, actually strays from the discussion at hand. Relevance dictates that at present there exists no competetive deck that would benefit from a 61'st card (probably; I lack the time and the card-value data to actually run the numbers on every card in every tier 1 deck). The argument being made by myself and others is that theory dictates that a deck that is optimal with 61 cards (and also competetive) is possible.

To address your arguments that even in a toolbox deck, that 60-cards is definitively optimal...
Quote
1) Your chances of drawing your engine are reduced.
2) All the arguments already mentioned about the increased inconsistency in drawing mana and disruption.
3a) Your chances of drawing a completely useless, very specific answer increase.
3b) Your chances of drawing redundant answers increase.


Given all these matters, if the 61'st card helps you to win one match in ten, but because of dillution of the deck causes you to lose one match in twenty, it's still causing you to win one additional match out of every twenty you play. In fact, had I been thinking more clearly when I presented my earlier arguments, that is precisely how I would have summarized what I was saying. If the addition of a card causes you to win more games than it causes you to lose, it is optimal to add the card. Furthermore, if after doing so, the removal of any card in the deck causes you to lose more games than it causes you to win, then that deck is optimal (better, at any rate) with 61-cards. To be absolutely certain of optimality, one would have to perform the same analysis with 62 cards.

Obviously, not every card is going to be immediately identifable as a cause of success or failure, particularly if it's a card you don't see. For example, if you lose a game, you can't say with certainty that drawing an Ancestral Recall would have helped you (Well, you can, by looking at the next three cards, but this argument supposes that Ancestral Recall represents three "perfectly random" cards.) That is why I proposed the relative value analysis in my initial argument. Instead of trying to measure how often the presence of a card wins you the game or the absence of another card loses you the game, I suggested that instead one measure how often one sees the added card versus how often one fails to see another card in the deck. In the example I gave, a third copy of a card will be seen 40 times as often as a singleton will fail to be seen. Roughly, then, the singleton would have to win 40 times as many games as the added card to make the addition suboptimal and 40 times as many games as any other card in the deck to make it optimal to remove a different card.
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« Reply #32 on: January 26, 2005, 01:15:25 pm »

If vintage has taught me anything, it is to think outside the box.

I suggest you guys skim over this a little, and then you can ignore it and get back to your antidotal evidence.

"The Great Debate Concerning the Orthodoxy of 60 Card Decks"
http://web.archive.org/web/19990508133909/www.thedojo.com/column/col.990414rna.shtml
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« Reply #33 on: January 26, 2005, 01:19:48 pm »

Quote
In the example I gave, a third copy of a card will be seen 40 times as often as a singleton will fail to be seen. Roughly, then, the singleton would have to win 40 times as many games as the added card to make the addition suboptimal and 40 times as many games as any other card in the deck to make it optimal to remove a different card.

This logic is faulty, because the additional card you add doesn't just keep you from drawing, say, your Yawgmoth's Will as frequently. It also keeps you from drawing your Ancestral Recall, Time Walk, Moxes, etc. Given that you have 60 cards in your deck that you already want to see, an additional card will most likely not win enough games to justify its place.

As for the highlander survival example, having played that deck, I can tell you that you want to max out on tutors and card drawing, because it's much more important to get your engine going than to have the exact optimal creature once you have survival out (because survival is usually a win on its own, unless you have no creatures in hand/green mana).

Basically, there will never be a deck in Vintage that ever wants 61 cards for power reasons. The manabase argument is a little different, but given that you'd keep a slightly mana shy hand if it had, say, Ancestral, I think it's clear that the power reduction is not worth the slight shift in mana.
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« Reply #34 on: January 26, 2005, 01:42:55 pm »

Quote from: Gabethebabe
Quote from: MadRhetoric
Quote from: Gabethebabe
Your statement is not true. 60 cards is optimal and anything else is suboptimal.

If you play more than 60 cards you dilute your deck.

I donīt care if your deck is tight. Cut something.

The statement that there is very little difference in 1/60 and 1/61 is true, and these are exactly the little differences that make you win or lose.


Did you even read the above posts? You didn't give any explanations and it didn't add to the discussion at all.


I did read them, but that doesnīt stop 61 cards from being worse than 60 cards. Youīre on the wrong side of statistics. More cards doesnīt only mean that you draw less bombs, it also makes your mulligan rate higher because chances increase you will draw lotsa land or no land (see also Bramīs post)

Example: compare a 60 card deck with 20 land to a 63 card deck with 21 land. They both have the same ratio of land. But the 60 card deck is more consistent, look the numbers:

----------60--------63--
0 land 04.83% 04.88%
1 land 19.88% 19.91%
2 land 32.37% 32.29%
3 land 26.98% 26.91%
4 land 12.39% 12.42%
5 land 03.13% 03.17%
6 land 00.40% 0.041%
7 land 00.02% 00.02%

You can talk this thread to death, but you canīt beat math.


I actually think this sums up my feelings pretty good. I just can't imagine thousandths of a percent creating a significant disadvantage. Again, in the example I always use, having that Sundering Titan or Triskelion in your deck is well worth that apparent decrease in consistency.


Also, another reason I even started this topic, is because I think a lot of decks have the vast majority of it as auto-inclusion. Look at the Intuition Slaver list that made 2nd at Waterbury. That maindeck is so tight, I wouldn't think about cutting almost every card in there, but if I'm gonna include a metagame card, who's to say that going over 60 is the wrong decision to make?


One other thing. Should I take offense to the fact that this was moved to newbie, even before there was any discussion? It's OK though, I don't even play magic anymore. Still wish I had to the money to do so though...
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Machinus
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« Reply #35 on: January 26, 2005, 02:26:40 pm »

Quote from: MadRhetoric
One other thing. Should I take offense to the fact that this was moved to newbie, even before there was any discussion? It's OK though, I don't even play magic anymore. Still wish I had to the money to do so though...


I wouldn't worry about it. On the surface, this debate seems trivial if you have studied the elementary mathematics of probability, but it is a little harder to become convinced that it's right to play with as few cards as possible. It also happens that while this has been true since the standardization of the deckbuilding rules (4-of, etc.), it is much more important now in Vintage than it has ever been, and honestly the best players all know how to build their decks properly, so it doesn't get a lot of discussion.

Quote from: nataz
If vintage has taught me anything, it is to think outside the box.

I suggest you guys skim over this a little, and then you can ignore it and get back to your antidotal evidence.

"The Great Debate Concerning the Orthodoxy of 60 Card Decks"
http://web.archive.org/web/19990508133909/www.thedojo.com/column/col.990414rna.shtml


This analysis is completely inapplicable to Type 1. The author's assumptions are false for such a high powered environment with so many restricted cards. Increased access to the most broken spells outweighs the small and problematic benefits of additional cards.

Additionally, he doesn't address the consistency issues that again are at the heart of this question.
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« Reply #36 on: January 26, 2005, 03:24:49 pm »

Quote from: Machinus

This analysis is completely inapplicable to Type 1. The author's assumptions are false for such a high powered environment with so many restricted cards. Increased access to the most broken spells outweighs the small and problematic benefits of additional cards.


A. If it does indeed have nothing to do with type I, may I suggest it be removed from the sticked thread titled, " READ THESE ARTICLES BEFORE BUILDING DECKS"

B. I disagree with your bolded statement above as an absolute, for reasons that have been brought up earlier in this thread. And in case you are curious, although I am by no means an expert, I am not without a solid stats background.
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