A new approach to Suicide Black [No longer budget]

[Rebel7284]

I have a lot of experience playing suicide black in powered enviornments.  During the height of fish, it even won several 15-20 people tournaments at neutral grounds having a favorable matchup against both Fish (u/r) and GAT and ok matchups against 4cc and Tog.  However with workshop decks becoming more and more popular and with Oath being an unwinnable matchup, i decided that the deck needs a major revamp.

For refrence here is the original decklist of my sui and my starting point.

// Mana
    15  Swamp
    1    Black Lotus   /Swamp in the budget version
    1    Mox Jet        /Swamp in the budget version
    1    Strip Mine
    4    Wasteland

// Creatures
    3   Nantuko Shade
    4   Phyrexian Negator
    4   Withered Wretch
    3   Hypnotic Specter

// Spells
    1   Necropotence
    1   Diabolic Edict  / Nice tutor target
    4   Dark Ritual
    1   Demonic Tutor
    4   Duress
    4   Hymn to Tourach
    4   Sinkhole
    1   Yawgmoth's Will
    3   Null Rod
    1   Vampiric Tutor

// Sideboard
SB: 1  Null Rod
SB: 2  Chains of Mephistopheles
SB: 4  Contagion
SB: 4  Planar Void
SB: 4  Smother/Powder Keg

Unlike most other aggro decks that rely solely on speed, sui works by attacking the opponent's hand and mana sources, restricting access to solutions, while the fast creatures demand they come up with those solutions or lose.

The problems arise when the opponent does come up with a solution.  Suicide has no way to deal with troublesome permanents.  Yes it kills small creatures post-sideboard quite efficiently (which is perhaps why i almost never lost to fish), however any enchantment or artifact threats can be deadly.

Since black simply does not have the utility to address the threats that hit play, the natural solution is to splash another color while maintaining the overall speed and threat frequency.  This of course has the drawback of destabilizing the mana base a bit, however I believe that the benefits gained outweigh the drawbacks.

The question is what color is best to splash.
Looking at our options:

Green: This adds Pernicious Deed, Naturalize, Oxidize, and perhaps a few efficient creatures.  Out of these, Deed is the card that really shines.  However Deed is a slow control card and while adding a solution to low costing permanents, it goes against the spirit of this deck.  I have played around deed before without much difficulty.

Blue: This adds a draw engine and counters.  However at that point, sui becomes tog.

Red: This adds Blood Moon, Random Burn, Rack and Ruin/Shattering Pulse.  While Welders really dont like the addition of burn, the deck still has no answer to enchantments.

White: The splash I decided is worth the most consideration.   The card Vindicate, while being expencive mana-wise, fits right into this deck.  White also offerst Swords to Plowshares to take care of almost anything an opponent Oaths or Tinkers out and Seal of Cleansing offers both enchantment and artifact destruction.

Here is the suicide list with the White splash.

// Mana
    1  Plains
    6  Swamp
    2  Flooded Strand
    4  Polluted Delta
    4  Scrubland
    1  Strip Mine
    4  Wasteland

// Creatures
    3  Exalted Angel
    3  Phyrexian Negator
    3  Withered Wretch

// Spells
    1  Necropotence
    4  Dark Ritual
    1  Swords to Plowshares
    1  Vampiric Tutor
    1  Demonic Tutor
    4  Duress
    4  Hymn to Tourach
    4  Sinkhole
    4  Vindicate
    1  Yawgmoth's Will
    2  Crucible of Worlds
    3  Null Rod

// Sideboard
SB: 3  Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1  Null Rod
SB: 4  Contagion
SB: 2  Engineered Plague
SB: 1  Humble
SB: 4  Seal of Cleansing

Note: power not added due to null rods and this being a budget deck, however I'm sure that substituting a lotus for one of the swamps would work.  

Card Choices:
Vindicate: With 5 stips and 4 Sinkholes already in the deck, this card most frequently acts as a land destruction spell, resulting in a total of 13 ways to kill a land.  However if your mana denial routine doesn't work and they do get out a threat that must be delt with, Vindicate deals with it.  What i love about this card is that it's almost never dead.  Just like every other card in the original sui, it's a threat that can be cast immediatly upon drawing it.

Swords to Plowshares: This card is self expanatory; however unlike Vindicate, StP can be a dead card against certain decks.  My only concern is that in my current build i can only fit one in.  

Exalted Angel:  Yes it's double white, yes it has echo, yet it very frequently ends the game.  4cc has already proven that an 8 point life swing is nothing to scoff at, and with my deck being full of disruption spells, my opponent is frequently unprepared to deal with it when it flips.  It also has nice synnergy with Necropotence.

Phyrexian Negator: 4 turn clock for 3 mana.


Withered Wretch:  Deals with dragon, welder, and helps against tog.  Great tech against a great number of decks.

Crucible of Worlds:  If I ever run out of ways to destroy the opponent's mana sources, Crucible is here to help me reuse that wasteland.  In a deck that runs ritual, a complete stip lock turn 2 is very possible.  Can also help me get that last white mana source to morph up angel.

Vampiric Tutor: while being card disadvantage, it is an instant and only costs 1 mana.  Also, unlike demonic consulatation, it doesn't kill you.

Sideboard Choices

Seal of Cleansing:  Better than disenchant in that i can cast it on a turn when i have nothing else to do and then continue with my disruption routine.

Contagion:  Has a tendancy to kill fish dead.  In fact, almost every aggro deck groans when i kill two of their creatures for 0 mana.

Engineered Plague: Anti-Goblins tech.

Humble: Swords #5.  Also stops most leaves-play abilities.   Is probably a sub-optimal card.

Cards I'm considering

Balance: This has the potential to be a game breaking card, however much of the time it is more likely to be a dead card.  I am constantly destroying my opponent's land and hand and i'm usually the one with more creatures in play.  Still, i am tempted...

Serenity: ok it destroys my crucible and possibly a null rod, but at the same time it can destroy a lot of their permanents.  Still slower than seal.

Sacred Ground: Makes sure my mana base is indestructable and ignores Sundering Titan, Smokestack and Wastes.

Matchups:

Oath: I may lose game 1 if they get a fast hand with both combo pieces game 2 however i bring in both seals and 4 swords giving me effectively 8 disenchants and 4 ways to deal the Colossus/Akroma/Spirit of the Night. Irridescent i can race with my own angel and pristine will be hard-pressed to stay untapped ALL the time.

Workshop and variants: My chances have improved.  Even though opponent going first turn trinisphere when i start without a wasteland in hand STILL tends to spell quick death for me even with this build.  Game 2, having 8 artifact destruction and 4 swords for welders makes it a bit easier.

4cc: Not only is cutting it out of several colors even easier than it was before, now i can even deal with a random angel with a Vindicate.  My matchup has improved from ok to favorable.

Fish/Gat/Tog: Insufficient testing.  Did win one match against GAT though.

In conclusion, i think splashing white may help revive the dying (dead?) suicide black decks and I eagerly await any input/suggestions any of you may have.

[The M.E.T.H.O.D]

Vindicate blows, especially four copies. 3 casting cost/2color sorcery removal spells in a so called "tempo" deck like suicide doesn't work.

[Rebel7284]

Vindicate blows, especially four copies. 3 casting cost/2color sorcery removal spells in a so called "tempo" deck like suicide doesn't work.

A) Under trinisphere, any other card also costs 3, i can deal with that. (and have to if i am to win the workshop matches).
B) If i hoped to handle all troublesome permanents with this card alone, i would fail, however the first two turns are spent using the more conventianal suicide style disruption.  wasteland, duress, hymn, sinkhole, are all proven to work and work well.  This costs 1 more mana than sinkhole and fits snugly into the mana curve to be cast to solidify what the sinks have started.
C) It being a fast aggressive deck is exactly why sorcery vs. instant matters little.
D) Do you have any usefull suggestions on the alternative i have to running vindicate.

[Ape]

Why the three Exalted Angels mainboard? Wouldn't it be better to cut some of your angels for more StP's main? The really work well against, well, everything. 5/3, 7/10s, Collosus', Angels, Tog's, Welder and against randomscrub.dec.

$0.02,

Ape.

[Rebel7284]

Why the three Exalted Angels mainboard? Wouldn't it be better to cut some of your angels for more StP's main? The really work well against, well, everything. 5/3, 7/10s, Collosus', Angels, Tog's, Welder and against randomscrub.dec.

$0.02,

Ape.

My original sui list had 14 creatures, this has 9.  I'm afraid that i wont draw any creatures thus alowing them more of a time frame to come up with solutions.  However i will try cutting 1 angel for a second StP and see if that makes the deck perform better.

[VarienTanafres]

Sideboard 3x Null Rods, cut 1x Vindicate, Add 4x Night's Whisper.

Your not running Mind Twist?

[Rebel7284]

Sideboard 3x Null Rods, cut 1x Vindicate, Add 4x Night's Whisper.

Your not running Mind Twist?

I dont like null rod as much as i used to, however in a deck that relies HEAVILY on resource denial, it is important to turn off moxes somehow.  

Night's Whisper is an OK card, but it has terrible synnergy with necro.  Most of the time i would rather demonic and vamp for necro.  I may test it as an alternative draw engine later on i guess.  

Yeah i'm not running mind twist.  Just like almost none of the versions of the original sui ran it.  Mind twist is a hymn that costs 3, and for 4 mana i would already be flipping the angel and killing him.  Also by the time i get to 4 mana, they are not likely to have much of a hand left.  8 efficient discard spells should be enough.

[maxxx]

I think angel may be too slow. what I mean is that u will loose 2 turn ( u cast its for 3) the turn after u must flip it... you will not use your mana to disrupt your oponent.

I dont think angel is realy a Sui card... it makes you loose tempo...

my 0.02$    

[timmy]

Before sui died I saw a deck that ran MD masticore.  It really helped against creatures and helped the deck alot against aggro.  I would consider adding 3-4 instead of angels.

[Rebel7284]

Before sui died I saw a deck that ran MD masticore.  It really helped against creatures and helped the deck alot against aggro.  I would consider adding 3-4 instead of angels.

Masticore is a slow anti-creature card.  It's also vulnerable to artifact destruction that is roaming in the enviornment.  It also has a LARGE drawback.  I have tested it in regular suicide before and was extremely dissatisfied with its performance.

Now about angel causing me to lose tempo: i am never going to cast it untill i cast every single disruption spell in my hand.  When my hand is empty (barring 1 reactive StP). I usually CAN afford to spend 7 over two turns since due to the empty nature of my hand i have absolutely nothing else to do.  If you still think there are better creatures out there, do suggest please.

Recent decklist changes:
Took out 1 vindicate and upped the StP count to 3 : swords are just too amazing and 3 mainboard vindicates can prove to be enough to deal with my goal of keeping everything off the table.

Sideboard changes:
Took out humble, put in 3 sacred ground.

[Tristal]

Back in 2001 I made a deck similar to this, obviously minus the Wretches and Angels.  Consider adding Armageddon?

[Rebel7284]

Consider adding Armageddon?

Can you explain your reasoning? with 12 Land destruction spells, I should always have more land than my opponent and it seems bad to destroy 4 of my lands to destroy his 1-2.

[Veru_]

When rebuilding sui, you've really got to let go of the old philosophy. It just doesn't work all that well. Trying to race combo or shopped/welded/oathed fat just doesn't work all that well today. It's best to try and focus in on utility. And not playing sinkhole. It's just bad with CoW, fetches, and decks that don't need much mana at all around.

Currently, I've been tinkering around with this:


4 Withered Wretch (SO good. You've got to run four with all the graveyard based cards going around right now)
4 Cuombajj Witches (this are good. They kill welders, allow you to trade in combat for stuff, and are cheap to cast)
4 Sarcomancy/carnophage (I'm starting to like the zombies with witches. They can trade with a jug, and apply a bit of early pressure)
3 Kami of Ancient Law (Not a bad beater, and takes care of oaht. As a bonus, it can also kill random enchantments, such as animate dead)
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy (I like it better than hymn. Targeted and cheaper)
3 Swords to Plowshares (Having the best spot removal is pretty good, I hear.)
1 Demonic Consultation (thinking about vampiric)
2 Vindicate (running more only slows down your curve. 3sphere is good, but if you build your deck in the mindset of having to pay 3 for everything in every game can backfire on you vs other decks)
1 Necropotence
1 Demonic Tutor
3 Chains of Mephistopheles (This is VERY good. It equalizes the field. Not only does it stop draw engines, but cards that so many decks often use merely to smooth out their game, like brainstorm, loose their effectiveness. If you can't beat their card advantage, negate it. And milling won't backfire, either. You've got wretch)
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Black Lotus
1 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Flooded Strand
3 Bloodstained Mire (meh, 5 fetches works)
4 Scrubland
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
4 Dark Ritual

I want to get seals in there, but I think kami might have it covered.

[Covetous]

Night's whisper is a great card--it's cheap, efficient card draw for a deck which lacks card draw.  It' not really worth it to try and commit all of your resources to getting Necro into play (i.e. vamp tutor-->lose 2 life, skip drawing a card), only to run out of life and not be able to draw any more cards.  Think of Whisper as a 2-cc 2-card mini-necro with immediate results.  It's also good with yawgwill.  In fact, it's probably better than vampiric tutor, which is too slow.  Masticore can be a decent SB card against aggro.  But, if you face a lot of aggro, why play suiblack?  Withered Wretch is awesome--3+ is the right number.  I like powder keg in this deck as MD removal, but of course this doesn't work with Null Rod.  I presonally think that red might be a better splash color for this deck because it allows you to run rack & ruin, REB, fire/ice, gorilla shaman and even grim lavamancer if you want to.  Running white for STP and seal of cleansing isn't bad, but I'm less than convinced.

[CaptainBuddocks!]

During the height of fish, it even won several 15-20 people tournaments at neutral grounds having a favorable matchup against both Fish (u/r) and GAT and ok matchups against 4cc and Tog.

I don't think Neutral Grounds is the best place to playtest any deck. I know most of the type one and extended playes there, and thier aren't really that great. I mean I'm definetly not a great player, but the newer NG players kinda suck. If you want to playtest there, look for somebody you know has been playing for a long time and not usually a random person.

[Rebel7284]

I don't think Neutral Grounds is the best place to playtest any deck. I know most of the type one and extended playes there, and thier aren't really that great. I mean I'm definetly not a great player, but the newer NG players kinda suck. If you want to playtest there, look for somebody you know has been playing for a long time and not usually a random person.

I said i played there, not playtested there
But yeah, there are as many random scrubs there as good players.  However it really is the only place that i know of that has SOME good people with power and experience.

Back to the discussion of the sui revival.
Here is the deck i'm testing now.

// Mana
    1  Plains
    5  Swamp
    2  Flooded Strand
    3  Polluted Delta
    4  Scrubland
    1  Strip Mine
    4  Wasteland
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Pearl

// Creatures
    3  Phyrexian Negator
    3  Withered Wretch
    3  Kami of Ancient Law

// Spells
    4  Dark Ritual
    3  Swords to Plowshares
    1  Demonic Tutor
    4  Duress
    4  Hymn to Tourach
    3  Vindicate
    1  Yawgmoth's Will
    2  Crucible of Worlds
    2  Null Rod
    4  Chains of Mephistopheles
    1  Necropotence

// Sideboard
SB: 1  Swords to Plowshares
SB: 4  Contagion
SB: 4  Seal of Cleansing
SB: 3  Sacred Ground
SB: 3  Rule of Law

The changes:
I noticed that the main way that i lost is being outdrawn.  Most of my solutions are 1 for 1 so that makes sense.  I realized that i either need a draw engine or need to stop my opponent's.  It came down to Night's Whisper vs Chains of Mephistopheles. I took Veru_'s advice and tried Chains.  So far they seem to work fairly well.

Kami of Ancient law seems like a good idea since they provide mainboard oath and dragon hate, however in testing they just seem too slow.  A 10 turn clock is not the way sui likes to put on pressure.  Still keeping the kami mainboard for now untill i find a better card.

Power: I think that this deck has some promice and i should test the optimal version even if i dont have all 3 of the power in question.  Also took out a Null Rod to minimize my chances of a hand filled with moxen and Null Rods while still having a good chance of drawing a mid game Null Rod.

Rule of Law:  Food Chain Goblins seems dead, while TPS and such are still strong.  Rule of Law is just a lot more versetile while also working against FCG to some extend.

No Vamp: not enough space in the decklist.  Perhaps will put it back in instead of 1 chains if i find myself looking for tutors more often.

Thanks for the feedback everyone, keep it coming.

[Rancor1]

Firstly, I am surprised by the lack of Cranial Extraction. It is slow enough that you will usually be able to disrupt, then tutor for one. Against certain decks, it can definately be game-breaking.

Also, I would play Therapy, or even Unmask, over Hymn to Tourach. While the latter can be more devestating, they can dump artifacts, dragons, or DAs into the yard, which could often hurt more than help.