Trinisphere And it's Death blow to Players

[JuJu]

I've been seeing alot of people complaining about Trinisphere and I agree with most everything said. Dark Ritual and Tsphere have to go if the format is to be playable again. But, who has actually left the magic scene, or retired so to speak because of Trinisphere?

Discuss

Note: I wanted to make a Poll but seems I can't ;/

[pox_reborn]

Trinishperes biggest impact is on the start of the game. Usually going first before both players get a chance to drop their moxen. Once mana bases have been established it becomes an inconveniece.

As for dark ritual: It hasn't warped any metagame before and is'nt winning all the tourneys. Control slaver has a good chance of beating como as evidenced by waterbury where Meandeck Sx's list was unknown but out of all the players playing it only one made the lower end of the top 8. The chance of Sx succeding at SCG tourney is also unlikely since the buzz is all about it and noones going to leave home without some combo hosers in the SB. Although the true power level of SX s yet to be realized so it may be able to be like the old long and overpower the hate.

[Jacob Orlove]

Moved to community, not that anyone who's quit would be posting anyway.

[mr_x]

I personally think that trinisphere and dark ritual needs to stay to keep the format healthy. If you restrict these, you will be hurting combo, workshop/prison and workshop/aggro. Yes, a first turn trinisphere hurts sometimes. But, it's NOT something where you CAN'T play out of. That's why there are alot of people playing basic lands now. Trinisphere is a great card, but only in workshop decks. Its a good card, but it doesn't break the format. It isn't played in every deck. You don't see combo decks playing them. And what if you DO play a first turn trinisphere. What are the chances that you DON'T get stuck behind your own trinisphere after they wasteland your workshop.

Also, dark ritual needs to stay. Because, it is a good mana speeder and it's works best a powering out combo pieces. Combo needs to stay healthy in type one to allow us to have a healthy playing environment. Combo needs to win fast, if not, then control will just own combo.

Control is extremely good by itself already, but who wants to see a format where all the good decks just plays a slow game of control. There wouldn't be any variety for people to play and you will start to lose players. The reason WHY type one is so healthy right now is because of the variety of tier one decks that there are available to play.

Type one is a format where broken plays are made. It's supposed to be a fast format. If you don't like the speed or the broken plays, please go play standard and stay away from type one.

IMO, people who quit playing magic because of 3sphere should stick to casual. A true magic player learns how to adapt to the metagame. TOURNAMENTS are where people play to WIN. NOT always to have FUN. So remember, if you don't have fun at the tournament, adapt, or stay home and play casual games at home.

[JuJu]

Quit wasn't the right word I think. I think it's more for people who are sitting on the bench until Tsphere gets the boot.

[Matt]

I'm one.

[Kasuras]

Yes, a first turn trinisphere hurts sometimes. But, it's NOT something where you CAN'T play out of. That's why there are alot of people playing basic lands now.

And I always thought that we were playing basic lands because of Crucible of Worlds. Silly me.

Trinisphere is a great card, but only in workshop decks. Its a good card, but it doesn't break the format. It isn't played in every deck.

You're totally right. Gush didn't have to be restricted either. It was only played in one deck!

Type one is a format where broken plays are made. It's supposed to be a fast format. If you don't like the speed or the broken plays, please go play standard and stay away from type one.

Oh god, that one again. The "broken plays" argument is one I truly love. You're right though; first turn Trinisphere is just "broken". And not something like "oh, you just lost".

IMO, people who quit playing magic because of 3sphere should stick to casual. A true magic player learns how to adapt to the metagame. TOURNAMENTS are where people play to WIN. NOT always to have FUN. So remember, if you don't have fun at the tournament, adapt, or stay home and play casual games at home.

Yeah, and no matter how prepared you come: you still get owned by turn 1 Trinisphere, turn 2 Crucible. Isn't that great?

Please note that the above should be seen as sarcasm.


I didn't quit magic though. Not that I've ever been playing competitive..

[Ivantheterrible]

You guys have got to stop complaining and figure out how to beat these cards. For one thing Dark Rituall What the fuck. I can promis you that Matt is not sitting on the sidelines until Ritual is resticted. That would just flat out kill combo.

Also recognize the inherant hypocarcy in your statment. Restict Ritual and Trinsphere. If trinisphere stays unresticed then Ritual dosent have to be restricted because unrestricted Trinisphere takes care of unrestriced Ritual. Would the same be true if they were restricted. Yeah. except that all the combo players of the world whould be bitching and moaning about no ritual.

As for Trinisphere(have I spelled this word the same way yet) I can assure you the number of games I have lost because of Trinisphere is quite miniscule. And let me tell you thats not becasue I havent played agianst it, I have played agaisnt it quite alot, but instead of complaining I figured out how to beat it instead of bitching. Now you might not be able to play any deck that ever existed but there are plenty of options. TPS for example just waits to end of turn bounce its oponets artifacts and then win with no trnishpere (this is succesfully pulled off more often then not) Slaver just needs to resolve a few welders and then it controls the stacks of 5/3 player. Control can just force or go first and play mox land then another land and just counter stuff till it wins.

If you try I think you'll find that Trinsphere is nothing more then an occasinal pain in the ass as oppsed to a you cant win anymore card. Belive me its a nessacary evil.

[Matt]

I can promis you that Matt is not sitting on the sidelines until Ritual is resticted.

I don't know what you're trying to say, here.

I feel I should elaborate: I'll only play decks that I enjoy playing, and right now none of the good decks is fun enough to get me to play them. Trinisphere is part - but only part! - of this. When there's a good deck that I like, I play. When not, I don't. This is a large part of my 1.5 attraction - almost every good deck is a deck I enjoy playing.

[Sytupal]

Matt, i must say I agree whole heartedly.  it just turns out that i enjoy the deck i play currently.  

Trinisphere should not make people refrain from playing magic.   It's not impossible to play around.  


I'm really sick of all this trinisphere talk.

[Methuselahn]

Dark Ritual and Tsphere have to go if the format is to be playable again.

I just don't see this.  Are Dark Ritual and Tsphere really putting up so many numbers that Top8s everywhere are flooded with them?  I look at the T8 stats and I just don't see the damning evidence, it's nothing like what Gush did or isn't nearly clear cut mana acceleration/tutor like LED or Burning Wish.

[dicemanx]

I just don't see this. Are Dark Ritual and Tsphere really putting up so many numbers that Top8s everywhere are flooded with them?

No, but do you want to be the guy randomly knocked out by a turn 1 Trini/Ritual-combo deck in the next event? Whether such decks dominate is not the point - the point is that they can randomly crush you and you'll have little to say about it if you don't have the right cards in your opening seven. Is that acceptable to you, as long as it doesn't happen too often?

Perhaps you might have some level of tolerance, but others have tolerance levels of zero for such decks.

[Mixing Mike]

I lost to 4 workshop decks at Waterbury over the course of both days.

After the next few events, I'm out until this Trinisphere shit leaves.

[virtual]

Actually, the answer to Trinisphere is quite easy.  Everyone who hates it, should just start playing it, not because they like it, but because if they do, and it starts "putting up those results", then maybe it will finally get the axe.  Besides, if you're playing workshops of your own, then its only partially a coinflip instead of entirely....

I don't like trinisphere, but I think I might have to start playing it, just to help it die...

-Virtual

[Addolorisi]

That would just flat out kill combo.

Or simply slow it down as people replace it with Cabal Ritual.

[ROLAND]

I think you need to look at this another way. I've been around magic for seven years now.

Since I started playing everyone told me about power nine and the banned & restricted list.  

The reason for the banned & restricted list was because the unrestricted  Power nine equals little interaction between players.

From what I understand Wizards doesn't want games to end after the first or second turn. The whole point of Magic is interaction between players.

With the invention of Trinisphere, Wizards made parts of the power nine just another mana producer. (Not to mention numberous other cards on the resticted list that cost less than three mana to play)  They leveled the playing field for players who don't have Power.  You can't rely on building a deck  that finishes the game within the first five turns.

If someone plays trinisphere  you'd be better off playing lands instead of Moxes & black lotus.  

Trinispere isn't unbeatable. All you need is three mana to play any spell you want.  Besides there is enough artifact hate around to deal with it.

Do I own a set of the "power nine" ?  No I can't bring myself to pay that much for nine pieces of cardboard.  As long as they allow 5 or 10 proxy tournaments I have no need to purchase power.

Do I own four trinisphere? Yes ,I got them on ebay for $10.00 after shipping.

Restricting dark Ritual? Why?  It's Black.      99% of the people in the magic community claim black to be the worst color of magic.  Not to mention  there are very few decks that play it.

I'm sure if you looked hard enough you could find several ways around to get around trinisphere.

Just some food for thought,

Roland

[Bulls on Parade]

If someone plays trinisphere  you'd be better off playing lands instead of Moxes & black lotus.  

Trinispere isn't unbeatable. All you need is three mana to play any spell you want.  Besides there is enough artifact hate around to deal with it.

Do I own a set of the "power nine" ?  No I can't bring myself to pay that much for nine pieces of cardboard.  As long as they allow 5 or 10 proxy tournaments I have no need to purchase power.

Do I own four trinisphere? Yes ,I got them on ebay for $10.00 after shipping.

Restricting dark Ritual? Why?  It's Black.      99% of the people in the magic community claim black to be the worst color of magic.  Not to mention  there are very few decks that play it.

Black is obviously the worst color in the game. It's right there behind white and green. Oh, and red. Will and Bargain have nothing on Orim's Chant and Birds of Paradise.

You've suggested that Trinisphere helps somehow bridge the gap between players who own power cards and those who do not. Trinisphere is good because of Mishra's Workshop, and better because of the Moxes and Lotus in the hands of the player with Trinisphere. A Trinisphere based deck is the only deck I have not seen attempted by players on a budget, because it flat out wouldn't make sense. What good is playing your Trinisphere turn 1 or 2 through a one-shot accelerator like Ritual when it's going to have a symmetrical effect, or turn 3 or after when it won't have any effect?

[KiL0]

Dark Ritual and Tsphere have to go if the format is to be playable again.

I just don't see this.  Are Dark Ritual and Tsphere really putting up so many numbers that Top8s everywhere are flooded with them?  I look at the T8 stats and I just don't see the damning evidence, it's nothing like what Gush did or isn't nearly clear cut mana acceleration/tutor like LED or Burning Wish.

Agreed, thank you. I just don't see the consistant numbers.

Perhaps when the "new-ness" presentation of [insert deck here] occured, you would have multiple strong showings. But doesn't that happen for all "new" strong decks? Remember when Tog was dominant, then came Fish's dominancy, etc. We just observed Oath's run. There was no real need for restriction, just time for adjustment.

Bottom line: I do not see the need for restricting Dark Ritual or 3Sphere.

Whether such decks dominate is not the point - the point is that they can randomly crush you and you'll have little to say about it if you don't have the right cards in your opening seven.

Randomly restrict for randomly crushing you? Not sure if this point is strong enough to warrent restriction.

Couldn't that be said of just about any competitive deck, really?

[Mixing Mike]

The whole point of Magic is interaction between players.

Obviously.

With the invention of Trinisphere, Wizards made parts of the power nine just another mana producer.  They leveled the playing field for players who don't have Power.  You can't rely on building a deck that finishes the game within the first five turns.

They were always mana producers, until they printed the storm mechanic, upon which they also became mana producers that make your storm bigger.

If someone plays trinisphere you'd be better off playing lands instead of Moxes & black lotus.

All lies, I'd be beter off playing with Workshops so I can play stuff rather than just sitting there watching them hepolessley pound me in.

Find me a deck that's not Belcher or Meandeck SX that doesn't run at least 10 lands.

Trinispere isn't unbeatable. All you need is three mana to play any spell you want.

Yes, Trinisphere isn't unbeatable by itself, it's when it's followed by...

-Smokestack
-Tangle Wire
-Crucible + Strip Mine/Wasteland

is when we lose player interaction.  Oh wait, that's EXACTLY what you said Magic was all about.  Guess you hate Trinisphere and didn't even know it yet....

[onelovemachine]

I don't mean to speak for him personally, I'm sure he'll get to it soon enough, but Mark Biller a.k.a Windfall has left the game after deciding that trinisphere makes the game not fun.  There are and will continue to be other reasons for his leaving but I would say that trinisphere played its part.  Personally I think that if 'everyone' feels the game isn't fun any more because of such and such card than such and such card gets restricted in its due time and the game resumes.  This happens constantly in type one even in the last year with the killing off burning desire.  I remember plenty of people bitching about how the game wasn't fun with first turn wins all the time.  In due time, it got fixed.

Edit: Forgot about this

IMO, people who quit playing magic because of 3sphere should stick to casual. A true magic player learns how to adapt to the metagame. TOURNAMENTS are where people play to WIN. NOT always to have FUN. So remember, if you don't have fun at the tournament, adapt, or stay home and play casual games at home.

The reason cards are restricted is because they create some kind of disturbance in the game that can't be adapted to well enough, the same reason cards are banned in other formats.  Many adept players believe that while you can adapt and play your 10 fetches and basics vs some decks like 5/3, your basic lands make no difference to tangle wires smokestacks and the occassional crucible/strip lock.  All you have to do to see the lack of logic in your statement is realize that good players who do well in tournaments have problems beating trinispheres.

[ROLAND]

Type 1 is about what happens in the first few turns.

The reason you want trinisphere restricted is that it ruins the tempo of your first turns.  Possibly giving an unpowered  opponent the time to  "pound you".

If I have no power this does bridge the gap. Because all I want to do if I have no power is slow you down enough to get something going. I might not win, but I got to try something.

Try playing a player who has power  with a deck that has no power.   You can watch while he "pounds you". There is no interaction here either.

The point is with an unpowered deck, Trinisphere slows down your tempo & puts your expensive cards  on the same level as someone without them.  Maybe it's the guy with four dark rituals & four trinisphere in his deck.

If wizards didn't want to slow down the tempo of games they would unrestrict the power nine and reprint them.  (We all know they will never reprint them).  

Trinisphere is an example of their (Wizards of the Coast) attempt to slow down the game for the people without power.

Just thought I would clarify my thoughts,

Roland

[Dr. Sylvan]

Roland, you make no sense. You assert that Trinisphere slows the game down, but in your example the game was decided by the first move? Seriously, reconsider your argument---you're making your opposition's case for them.

[wraith985]

News flash Roland - Workshops are $250-300 a pop. Your given example is Mox, Mox, Lotus, Trinisphere, Crucible, Strip. Let's add - $400 a mox (being conservative), $250 for MWS, $900 for a Lotus. Negligible costs for 3sphere, CoW, Strip. Adding em up, that's $1950 in 6 of your opening 7. What kind of budget are you on, Donald Trump's payroll or something?

Also - do you want to talk about no interaction? Please tell me how your opponent is supposed to interact with the MWS/3sphere/Crucible/Strip draw you cited as an 'example' of your point. You argue that 3sphere 'evens the playing field', failing to see that 3sphere's ruining of tempo goes ONE WAY (no way in hell it's symmetrical) - you have MWS + SoLoMoxen on the table already, and your opponent's got an empty board. It will always be far more abuseable by people with power than people without.
 
Finally, you say that there's no interaction between powered vs. non-powered: see Food Chain Goblins, which requires absolutely no power and is at least competitive (though admittedly on the lower side).

The problem with Trinisphere is that it makes matches super random, hinders interactivity, and speeds up the very format that it tried to slow down. I'm not on either side of the restriction fence, but I do agree that it's a problematic card that warrants attention at the very least.

[ROLAND]

You are correct. The last example did make their case.

I edited the post.  

I was looking at trinisphere from the perspective of someone without power & workshops.  

In which case  dark ritual + trinisphere on first turn does slow down the tempo of the game.

I still don't think trinisphere should be restricted.

Sorry, about the confusion

Roland

[Eandori]

I am now re-joining the ranks of Vintage magic players after a 5 year hiatus to Everquest.  I have already ran up against all kinds of Trinisphere decks in local tournaments and I don't think it's broken.

If your opponent wins the game first turn by slapping that down then getting a lock on you, that's not what defines a broken card.  There are many ways to get past a 1st turn trinisphere, and there are LOTS of ways to get past late game Trinispheres.  Most of the decks I have been playing lately pack full moxen, lotus, and 4 mana leaks.  It's not force of will, but it's a first turn counter that's not to hard to come up with.  

My latest deck packs in 28 mana sources in 60 cards and many more of them are lands then before.  Even (ghasp) basic lands!  Wasteland?  Back to basics?  Hmm no, not as worried about those.  No trinisphere deck has yet beat my current custom deck, and I'm blasting through Psychatog, Oath and I went toe to toe with a Control Slaver deck.  I'm still refining it a bit more before I post it here, but I'll give ya the name.  "Sushi"  

I'm a fan of creativity and local metagame.  There are ~7300 cards in the game of Magic, my buddy data-mined the Gatherer the other day to find that out.  Yet I only see people actively talking about like 20 decks in Vintage?  The format where nearly any card ever created is allowed?  It's all about adapting guys.  If a deck, or a card shuts down the current meta game, figure out how to get around it.  That's the beauty of MTG, the ever changing environment.

Cheers,

Eddie Tracy

[cssamerican]

No, but do you want to be the guy randomly knocked out by a turn 1 Trini/Ritual-combo deck in the next event? Whether such decks dominate is not the point - the point is that they can randomly crush you and you'll have little to say about it if you don't have the right cards in your opening seven. Is that acceptable to you, as long as it doesn't happen too often?

Let us just say that every time a Workshop deck has a Trinisphere in hand it is has the mana to cast it. That means 40% of games they will have a turn one Trinisphere. Now its impact is only severe when the Workshop player goes first. So, it drops the devastating turn one Trinisphere play down to 20%. The let us say about half the time the opposing player has a Force of Will or a Wasteland that ruins this turn one bomb. That means one out of every ten games the Workshop has an I win type of hand, this of course is also assuming that if a turn one Trinisphere isn't disrupted it will always be followed up by good cards. Now granted, I have made a lot of assumptions here, but I believe I have been fair in those assumptions. In a format where you need to win two out of three games I find that a 10% random win factor is acceptable because it should not impact the overall results significantly. I would feel confident in saying that in the hands of competent players many decks in Vintage have such a margin of oops I win. It is the 50% - 75% turn one goldfish decks that I have a problem with, and believe it or not Trinisphere is one of the reasons more of those decks are not being played.

[Bram]

I just don't see what everyone's whining about. Neither Dark Ritual nor Trinishpere are unbeatable. Yes, they are strong. But so is Bazaar. And lots of other unrestricted cards.

For one thing, Trinishpere can be raced by any number of decks that include Workshop. So Trinisphere might not even be the problem. I actually hold there is no problem at all. A deck like Stax, for example is literally packed with maindeck anti combo hate (4x Trinisphere, 4x Chailice of the Void) and it loses quite consistently to many combo builds. The reason: Rebuild. They can sit on it, optimizing their hand, until they have the mana to play it and just win right then and there. This happens a lot. Rebuild is not just good anti-stax tech; it's great anti-stax tech.

And restricting Dark Ritual? Why? So as to ensure that Sui Black will never resurface? Seriosuly, is combo dominant? I mean, I live in Combo Land and I just don't see that.

I see good combo decks (TPS, Meandegg Tendrils) , good control decks (Control Slaver, mono-U), good prison decks (Stax) and, to a lesser degree, good aggro decks (5Tinker, TMS) though most of these are admittedly based on Workshop. I see as healthy a format as we can expect in Vintage.

Trinisphere should not make people refrain from playing magic. It's not impossible to play around.

People quitting magic because of one card is beyond lame.

I'm really sick of all this trinisphere talk

Seconded.

[Toad]

These issues have been beaten to death anyways.