[Unfinished Article] Comprehensive Analysis of the B&R L

[Nehptis]

The formats run on the Pro Tour are much more competitive (and lucrative) than Vintage will ever be. If YOU feel so strongly about playing competitively, than I suggest you take up one of the uber competitive PT formats.

I strongly disagree with you.  I do play EXT and Draft (never T2) and there is no way that you can convince me that the competition is greater in the PT formats.  The play skill and advanced deck types of the major T1 tournies like TMD Waterbury are AT LEAST equal to those on the PTs.  Any noob can net deck Ravager or RDW to victory on the PT.  There is VERY little chance a noob could pick up a Tier 1 T1 deck like ToA combo or Slaver and stand a chance against experienced T1 players.  The decks are just too complicated and there is no room for error in the format.

The flavor and brokenness in Vintage is its defining quality.

I recommend that you also re-read Steve's article.  Particulary the 2nd paragraph that starts with "Accelleration in Type One isn’t so much a feature of the format as a rule of the format."  The format is only "broken" when you compare it to the other non-T1 formats.  The problem with Will is that it is a broken card WITHIN the format.  It can not be "fixed" simply by a restriction.  The other restricted cards live and play well as restrictions within the format.

I'm not going to argue the matter of which format is more lucrative because it is a moot point when 1 format is backed by a Corp and the other is not.

[Chamelet]

You see, Will is a card that wins games. Everyone agrees with that.
The thing is, in control mirrors, resolving an unwanted spell may win you the game (anything that hoses your opponent, from Blood Moon months ago to Tinker->Slaver now).
So, games are pretty much defined on what resolves and what not (that's why Force is so good).
That said, and as I said in a previous statement, sometimes the winner of a game is the one who resolves Will. So the struggle is to see who does that before. And being able to resolve Will requires skill, a better build or luck sometimes. As I also said, that's completely normal.
So this reduces Will to a Win Condition. The only difference between it and other Win Conditions is that will wins NOW, meaning the only way to not lose when it resolves is by having a Tormod's Crypt (or alike).
What does this mean? Well, graveyard is a major resource in Vintage now. So what? Play with Crypt!
The best about Vintage (and another reason it's the only format with a restricted list) is that it has a huge, HUGE card pool, meaning EVERY card has it's nemesis.
So, if you're so concerned about Will, play with it's nemesis. Then the control mirror you play will be defined by you resolving Crypt or not.
And that's winning with Skill.

[Royal Ass.]

We can’t just do this because people are not adjusting to the meta game, we need to make very sure that there is no way for the meta game to recover from a certain card before we ditch it forever.

So, are you saying that we have been wating for the meta to adjust since 1998 when the card was printed? How much longer will it take?

On another note, I would like to hear Steven's opinion on what setting a precident of banning a card would do in the long run.  Even if Dr. Sylvan's suggestion of not touching pre mirage cards was in place, would we not have constant debates over other cards to ban, or even whole mechanics such as storm?

Also, while banning will would arguably be benificial for type one as far as competativeness, Many feel that it would undermine the historical and nostalgic aspect of the format, which is one of its big draws.  I think if you presented this idea of bannings to wizards they would just suggest you play type 1.5. (isnt that what it was created for- a fixed type one?)

[Revvik]

a) Will does not win immediately, unless your opponent doesn't like to watch you have fun with your toys.
2) Tormod's Crypt against Yawgmoth's Will would really only work in a field full of decks that won using the graveyard, not just resolved a spell giving you an alternate hand.
c) Will does not always Win Teh Game(tm).  Skilled players can win right past it, believe it or not.  

It CAN make the format un-fun for newer players, and it can completely discredit Type One entirely, which I see often when some Type II players (read: idiots) smartmouth the format.  If Type One could ever become as widely played and supported as Extended (say, on the 7th of never?), then stuff like Will would probably have to be "corrected."

It's pretty hard to "hate out" a spell like Yawgmoth's Will, by the way.

My stance?  The spell is stupid as hell.  I play with it, I abuse it like I'm paying it by the hour, and I feel it should be banned.  I don't ever want to see it banned because of the precedent it will set, and it will also allow people to whine even more! (Think "restricted thread" level of whining aimed at Ancestral or Lotus).

Since I haven't said so yet, despite some of my views differing greatly from yours Steven, I thought it was a great read, and it's pieces like these that keep me from resorting to workplace homicide for entertainment.

[Cross]

So, are you saying that we have been wating for the meta to adjust since 1998 when the card was printed? How much longer will it take?Very Happy

Show me numbers and I'll stop complaining. I think everyone's perception is way off what what the numbers really say. Again, biggest tournament of the year has no yawg's in top 2.

[Smmenen]

The flavor and brokenness in Vintage is its defining quality.

I recommend that you also re-read Steve's article.  Particulary the 2nd paragraph that starts with "Accelleration in Type One isn’t so much a feature of the format as a rule of the format."  The format is only "broken" when you compare it to the other non-T1 formats.  The problem with Will is that it is a broken card WITHIN the format.  It can not be "fixed" simply by a restriction.  The other restricted cards live and play well as restrictions within the format.

t.

I'm glad you brought up that point.  That was one of the more interesting points that I think I made in the article and I'm glad someone caught onto it.  I come out and say that is why I think Null Rod is so powerful.  

@Roy Ass:
What would a banning do to the format?  Here is a problem: I hate it when other policies get caught in the web of decisionmaking.  Non-metagame driven issues should never bar what is right.  In this case, we care so much about making every card playable that we put banning off the table.  That is a mistake.  Nothing should be off the table and banning would send that message.  Don't get me wrong, the threshold should be very, very high.  But Will is so busted that it would kind of be nice to have it be the only card that can't be played anywhere in sanctioned magic.  It would be a symbol of brokeness and an apt one at that.  It's a 10 dollar card that can't be used in any other format anyway, and not becuase of its age.  

I don't think it would undermine the nostalgic aspect of the format if just one 10 dollar card Saga card were banned.

[Revvik]

Smmenen: There is no doubt in my mind that banning a card in Type One would be a drastic move (non-ante, non-dexterity), and Yawgmoth's Will is the most deserving.

If the DCI banned Will (or restricted any cards, even ones like Mana Drain that have emptied my pockets at times), then I'd shrug, and alter / rebuild.  It's not the loss of the card that worries me, it's what this would do to the format.

This isn't the type of format change that results from Gro-a-Tog, where a dominating deck gets clipped.  This is a fundamental change to the rules of the format.

Where do you see Type One heading (long term) that would make the banning of a card a necessity?  More or less, where do you want the format to go?  I think maybe that is a simple way of explaining why you're calling out Yawgmoth's Will.

[Smmenen]

I think my argument against Will was much easier to see mid summer of last year.  At that time, the series of restrictions was basically all about will.

I would even go so far as to say that the development of Vintage travelled a path of breaking Yawg Will.  Once it was broken, there would be a restriction and another deck would try and abuse it - this time faster and more powerful.  And then it would happen again.  That trend has been broken up by intervening developments but the fundamntal truth is no less true.  Yawg Will adds little, makes matches less interesting, not more, and short circuits actual strategic execution.  Everything else - all the other concerns I have made explicitly in this thread and I'm not going to repeat.

[Slay]

Yawg Will adds little, makes matches less interesting, not more, and short circuits actual strategic execution.  Everything else - all the other concerns I have made explicitly in this thread and I'm not going to repeat.

So does MWS -> Trinisphere. The only difference being the amount of free Time Walks you get.

Or Crucible of World + Strip effect. Or Mindslaver locks. Or Mind's Desire. Or a deck which goes off 70% turn 1. All of these things make the format boring and lacking in strategy. I don't see how "he got a Will and won" is fundamentally any different from "he got a 3Sphere in the opening grip and won." Both show the natural inborn brokenness of the format, and there's no difference between adding 4x FoW to deal with Will-based decks and adding 4x Rack and Ruin to deal with MWS-based decks.

How can you claim to nerf one archetype of decks while maintaining that other archetypes abusing similarly unfun cards are perfectly fair in the format?
-Slay

[Smmenen]

The difference is profound.  The difference is that Yawg Will goes in nearly every deck ever.  It is hugely spashable and goes in Control, Prison, Combo, Aggro, etc, etc etc.  3Sphere can only go in a few decks.

[Chamelet]

I would even go so far as to say that the development of Vintage travelled a path of breaking Yawg Will.  Once it was broken, there would be a restriction and another deck would try and abuse it - this time faster and more powerful.  And then it would happen again.

By this statement you say Vintage is defined as: Breaking Yawgmoth's Will. And that's not true.
Even if it were, deckbuilding in a format that is defined by one card would be: "I have to break the card or deal with it". And doing any of the 2 would require skill. So that's fine with me.

[TrixR4Kidz]

Most importantly the top two decks at Waterbury did not even use yawgmoth’s will. If Yawgmoth’s is so format disrupting then why is the biggest tournament of the year won by a deck without yawg’s?

This excuse means nothing, yawgmoth's will not being in the top two decks of waterbury doesn't prove that the card isn't just plain silly, nothing in magic compares to the pure power of this card, it's mindless, and when resolves it's probably the end of the game.  Cards are restricted ONLY because of yawgmoth's will, like smmenen said, and there is something wrong with that.

When your playing a really close, well faught game, and your in pretty commanding lead, and you have 6 cards to their 3 for example, and they have a force and topdeck a yawg's will, they resolve that will and win the game (don't tell me that has never happened to you).  That is not right, and that sort of thing should not be happening, yawgmoth's will also allows you to replay all of the restricted cards which is kind of goes against the fact that they only want you to run 1 copy of them in each deck due to the power, and you are fighting against a card that will let you play all of them on one turn over again?  

Now about tinker, lotus, bargain etc... You cannot even think about saying they are anywhere near as bad as yawg's will.  Like jacob said about tinker, it can be solved by a goblin welder.  Yes cross, I understand your point about yawgmoth's will and tormod's crypt, but goblin welder isn't exactly uncommon in type one, unlike tormod's crypt.  If you want to compare something to yawgmoth's will, it'd have to be tolarian academy.

Lotus is of course is going to be in all of the top decks at a tournament, because it's the best mana accelerant in the game, and while mana accelerant is very important, it doesn't automatically win you the game.

Bargain, yes, this is pretty much game ending as well, but the fact is, it's 4BB, which is dramatically different then 2B, and is ONLY playable in combo (unlike will)

We'll I piloted Control Slavery (Rich Shay based) to 5-6th at Waterbury, yes I abused will a few games, but it didnt win me more than a slaver activation or welder supriority

I find it hard to believe yawgmoth's will didn't gain you any mana, didn't recast your ancestral recall, didn't find an answer to a problem on the board and didn't give you the edge in the game all on one turn when it was casted, Yawgmoth's will is just a stupid stupid way to lose, and something should be done about it.

@Jacob - Claiming that necro is bad is totally BS, Duress doesn't necessarily kill it off, alot of the decks that run necro, run FoW, and i'm sure after drawing a crapload of cards, your going to find a force.  if People aren't winning the next turn, there is probably something weird going on after seeing so many cards.


and last but certainly not least, people are ranting about how trinisphere should get restricted, and there are a few saying mana drain.  The major problem that I see is intuition.  It's starting to become a constant "must counter" card, and if a welder is on the board, is usually a game ender.  Not to mention if you have *sigh* yawg's will in your hand.

[Cafe_Cafe]

... yawgmoth's will also allows you to replay all of the restricted cards which is kind of goes against the fact that they only want you to run 1 copy of them in each deck due to the power, ...

Same goes for CoW + Stripmine or any deck running 1 Regrowth + 4 Eternal Witness.
GY recursion is fun. You have another resource in your GY, think about Threshold or Flashback.

Let´s put this in a simple comparision.
Some of you guys think that playing your Ancestral Recall and some other goodies a second time is far more broken than playing it 6 times in a duel ?

Obviously Y.Will is a great card. Pure card advantage. But I don´t think it deserves banning from ALL formats.
Thanks for your time.

[Nehptis]

@ Steve:  Null Rod really is one of, if not THE most powerful, yet "balanced" and unbroken cards in T1.  It essentially shatters (no pun intended) the fundamental "rule" that defines T1, fast artifact mana.

If a team really put some heavy thought and effort into a deck that incorporates resolving and protecting a MD Null Rod I would venture to guess that such a deck could post some very interesting results in a Power heavy meta (which most every T1 tourney is.)  To date I believe only Fish incorporates the Null Rod in the MD.

I'm not about to try, since like most people I like playing my Power!

[Fall-Titan]

I think some of us are missing the point of vintage. Random wins will happen with any number of cards and that just has to be known when going into a match. Personally i think the most difficult objective in vintage is aquiring the cards to secure both a good deck as well as trade bait. In type 2 almost every player has every card they need and the format is completely based off gameplay and strategy. While Vintage incoporates both of these, some cards are just no brainers when playing a deck. If your playing blue then your playing ancestral recall: Black, Yawg Will :White Balance etc. Type 1.5, although i do not enjoy it, is structured more like standard. These cards cannot be banned because vintage becomes 1.5 in that case. If anything new broken cards need to be released to increase the viable deck database that vintage has. If Wizards released a hypothestical card in the next set that was: B  Draw 3 cards. As long as "" remains in your graveyard, cards in graveyards cannot be played.  Do you honestly think that this card would not be played because of its anti-synergy to Yawg Will. A new deck would surface, probably combo, that didnt run Will at all because this card is too broken to not run. Granted if this were restricted Will and it would be run but i stray from my point. Broken cards exist because we need them. Dare we limit vintage to solely a control format?

[Zherbus]

I think some of us are missing the point of vintage. Random wins will happen with any number of cards and that just has to be known when going into a match. Personally i think the most difficult objective in vintage is aquiring the cards to secure both a good deck as well as trade bait.

Random wins will happen in any format, but only in ratio to the power level of the format. Despite being the highest power level, we still like to keep the number of random wins to a minimum. There is a threshold that makes the format more random than skill intensive, and we're hovering dangerously close right now if we already haven't passed it.

[Revvik]

in other words, we want this format to be taken seriously, and it can't when it is often viewed as "Oops, I win?"

[Carthain]

Other formats also have the "oops, I win" factor.  But doing so is usually done late game, and depending on the board state.

Yawg Will is different, in that it is probably responsible for a good 2/3rd if not more of those "oops, I win" situations in vintage.  In type 2, lets say a Ravager deck, it could be the drawing of a ravager, a desciple, a shrapnel blast or a cranial plating -- depending on what is in play.  Yawg will doesn't matter what is in play -- only if your opponent is holding a counterspell or not.  And then it only depends on what is in your graveyard.  Your permanents and your opponents permanents generally end up meaning nothing for a resolved yawg will.

Take for example what happened to someone I know in Waterbury: Both playing TPS, and he manages to get a better board position, while his opponent has an empty hand (and he has some in hand).  Then his opponent draws an Ancestral.  This wouldn't be bad at all -- except that the ancestral drew him D.Rit, D.Rit, Yawg Will.  He then proceeded to win that turn.

Look at the cards in that one turn.  Ancestral, which works well as being restricted.  Dark Ritual, which I've heard arguments for restricting.  Yawg Will.  Of those cards, guess which one won the game for him?

Not the ancestral, as simply drawing cards isn't game breaking (it could have been an AK for 3, and nobody would flinch about that.  Ancestral is better, but simply drawing 3 cards isn't that broken of an effect).

It wasn't the Rituals, because without anything else, the rituals don't do much.

Only thing left is the Will.  So what if the Will was another card?  Best alternative I can think of would be a spoils or demonic consultation.  That would let you spoil/consult for a tendrils, to tendrils for 8.  Possibly a lethal tendrils depending on the game state.  But the Will made sure that he had all sorts of tools available to win right then and there.

The only thing there responsible from an absolutely broken level of play is the Will.  The other effects can be considered broken when compared to other cards -- but the Will is even more broken when compared to these broken cards.

[Fall-Titan]

The only thing im getting at here is that i do not feel that it is Wizards responsibility to meet requests of  banning a broken card. We as intelligent individuals need to step up to stop Will just as we have stepped up to stop every other threat available. We have plenty of reasonable answers to stopping a Will including counterspells, tormonds crypt, duress, and even trinishpere. We all know the biggest threat of a resolved Will is lotus/ dark rit into a crapload of things essentially letting you play Will for free. Trinsphere stops that and is a commonly played card. If you suspect Will is going to have a big showing at any particular tournament then meta-game against it. It only takes 2-3 cards some of which you can probably maindeck. Also my point about dark rituals shows that restricting dark rituals will also weaken a Yawg Win seeing as how there are less mana oppurtunities available. You said that ancestral recall is not game winning because it depends on what you draw. On the same note Yawg Win doesnt win unless the proper things are in that persons graveyard. And we have a say about what is in that persons graveyard so take full advantage of it.

[Slay]

The difference is profound.  The difference is that Yawg Will goes in nearly every deck ever.  It is hugely spashable and goes in Control, Prison, Combo, Aggro, etc, etc etc.  3Sphere can only go in a few decks.

Nearly every deck ever? How do you explain Dragon, Madness, 5/3, Stax, Goth Slaver, Fish, and Oath not having Will in it? Hell, you even made 2 of those decks. Explain that to me. Dragon even plays an assload of black and draw spells.

The bottom line is this: Will is a great card. It's the best card ever printed. But it does not dominate the format. It is not a requirement for every deck. It is not a requirement for every deck that wins. It does not warp nor define the format, and one is not required to metagame specifically against it to win. If they splash black for Will, they ruin their manabae and leave themselves open to Wasteland unnecessarily. If the metagame is not "Play Will or lose", there is no reason to ban Will.

So why do people keep saying that Will is the end-all, be-all of the format? You said it yourself, people lack deckbuilding skills, and the format is stagnant. Instead of creating decks which are so powerful they don't need to use Will to win, they fall back on the most powerful card ever. That's a major flaw right there, but banning Will won't do anything. If you take heroin away from an addict, and give him cocaine in his place, what are the chances he'll start using the cocaine? Banning Will will only lead to more people falling back on Workshop -> 3Sphere as a way of snatching undeserved victories. Either way, the format will stagnate, and it's no fault of the DCI nor deckbuilders, it's the fault of lazy people who will never change their ways.

You don't ban a card just because it's a great card, you ban something because the format is irretrievably damaged without it gone. It's not that way.
-Slay

[Fall-Titan]

Well said Slay. You wrapped up what i have been trying to get at much clearer than i did. Yawgmoths Will is not Vintage. It is simply a piece of what Vintage is. As is every other card. We cannot eliminate a card for being good. Hell we cant even ban a card because it is played in every deck (ie: Black Lotus). If the day ever comes where 80% of all games are won by sucessfully casting Yawg Win, then yes we will have a legitimate complaint and request for banning. Currently im willing to say that less than 10% of games are won by casting Yawg Win. We may percieve it as more because the fashion of winning is just awesome but all of that rests in the heads of us greedy humans. In closing, ban a card because it overwhelms the format not because it strengthens it

[Revvik]

Hell we cant even ban a card because it is played in every deck (ie: Black Lotus).

Technically, we should never HAVE to do this, since the acceleration is a defining feature of our format, but this was stated before.

If the day ever comes where 80% of all games are won by sucessfully casting Yawg Win, then yes we will have a legitimate complaint and request for banning.

Are we getting closer to that?  The original Long (4 Burning Wishes) set itself up to kill with Yawgmoth's Will, and that got stuff restricted.  I think Steven's point of banning Will was to bypass situations like these.  Burning Wish without the Will isn't nearly as good, although playable.  One could make the point that it would fetch out Balance

Currently im willing to say that less than 10% of games are won by casting Yawg Win.

Almost 100% of games where Yawgmoth's Will is cast result in a win.  I say almost, because I have a tendency to be terrible at this game, cast Will, and lose to an unforeseen topdeck.

True that not every deck runs Will, although Gothenburg Slavery splashes one lone Underground Sea for it, and one can hardly make the case for Fish not running Will - it doesn't run good cards in the first place.

[jcb193]

I think Will's power is most pronounced when decks go into TopDeck mode.  Will lets you replay almost your entire gameplan prior to that point.  I think Smemmen is concerned that not only is Will a problem, but critical mass is causing it to be easier and easier to find/cast (more tutors).  

It's one thing to draw three cards, drop a juggernaut, or clear the board.  It's entirely a different thing to replay your entire game.
JB

[Fall-Titan]

Almost 100% of games where Yawgmoth's Will is cast result in a win. I say almost, because I have a tendency to be terrible at this game, cast Will, and lose to an unforeseen topdeck.

I was referring to the fact that if one considers every game of magic played that Yawgmoths Will wins less than 10% of those. I agree that once Will is cast you have a 90+% of winning. But not every deck runs Will and Will isnt cast every game in those decks that do.

[Slay]

I think Smemmen is concerned that not only is Will a problem, but critical mass is causing it to be easier and easier to find/cast (more tutors).

Well, how about we wait until it gets to the point where it's so easy to find that it's 'abuse Will or lose'. Until then, we should use the magnificent skills "innovation" and "metagaming". How novel!
-Slay

[Jacob Orlove]

Baby, you got real ugly.