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Author Topic: [Strategy] Sideboarding Fish: what play and side in Vs Oath  (Read 3088 times)
Axor_the_Superman
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« on: February 16, 2005, 11:59:21 am »

After the arrive of Oath.dec in our meta I think there are two strategies:

a) run&beat: We try to kill the opponent as soon as possible, beating with creatures and factories (for the first game the best choise).  Cool

b) Control the Game: we play a control game (in my opinion this isn't the right choise)  Confused

After the first game we have to side; we have some cards may be useful (with my rating */10):

a) spawning pit 6.25/10  Smile
b) claw of gix 4/10  Confused
c) extract 7+/10  :lol:
d) waterfront bouncer 6/10  Very Happy
e) gilded drake 5/10  Rolling Eyes
f) goblin bombardment 7/10  Very Happy
g) annul 7-8/10  Twisted Evil  Twisted Evil  Twisted Evil
h) maze of ith 5/10  Confused

a) Spawning pit 6.25/10

this artifact may be a good choice, because we can sacrifice token spirit charging a counter on Pit. At the end of the oppo's turn we make creatures for a beatdown and at the end of our turn we sacrifice them and we watch non triggering oppo's oath.

b) Claw of Gix 4/10

this artifact requires an activation cost, paying a colorless mana and sacrifice a creature to gain one life. I think spawning pit is better than this.

c) Extract 7+/10

with this we can remove the finisher(s) from the game, and win the game with normal beatdown. We must play extract covered by FOW or daze+spiketail for the max utility.

d) Waterfront Bouncer 6/10

if oppo does not has morphling or Iridescent Angel this a great creature for side. This is really beautiful also with gorger.dec or tpc (tinker per colossus)

e) Gilded Drake 5/10

as the Wtf Bouncer, this is a strong card if oppo doesn't plays Morpho or Iridescent, and it is also great with tpc but not gorger.dec.

f) Goblin Bombardment 7/10

this enchantment works making a damage for each creature sacrified to a target.
This is better than S. Pit because we can play null rod at the same time we play this, instead with S. Pit we can't use the ability for our strategy.

g) Annul 7-8/10

Great card, powerful! We can counter oath @ first turn, and also Black Lotus, moxes, pernicious, E.E.... This is the card we would have on hand all first turns!
*Please, note that I have this card main deck (3x) and I have not stifle*

h) maze of ith 5/10

Good card... But maybe useful with untargettable creatures?

After this, I can make a top8 sideboarding cards:

1 Annul 7-8/10
2 Extract 7+/10
3 goblin bombardment 7/10
4 spawning pit 6.25/10
5 waterfront bouncer 6/10
6 maze of ith 5/10
7 gilded drake 5/10
8 claw of gix 4/10

What you think about? Have you got others ideas or opinion?

My two €uroCents  Wink

Axor
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maxxx
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« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2005, 09:39:59 pm »

I hearded about karakas

karakas- legendary land

Tap to add a white mana to your mana pool our return target legend to its owner hand


With this land we can return akroma and pirit of the night to the hand. I think it's better than maze of ith because it produce mana and it's better to return a creature to the hand than just tap it...

my 2 cents Razz
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Axor_the_Superman
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« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2005, 06:03:51 am »

Karakas card: http://magiccards.info/lg/en/248/

Hi, this is a great card, but I don't know if it can be useful in the second game or at the third game.
The Oath Player sides in creatures as Morphling, that is not Legendary Creature.

So Karakas is a great tech, but only if playing in main deck and in a UW fish, in 1-2 copies. What other creatures we can bounce? Spirit and Akroma and......?

However, this is a beautifl idea and karakas is better than maze.

My two EuroCents  Wink
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« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2005, 08:29:13 am »

If you are running karakas in the main as a single copie than you'd better also run weathered wayfarer (wich is quite good for searching karakas/strip mine/wasteland) wich is insane against oath game 1 if combined with karakas...Just keep your land count low and search for strips first disrupting there mana base than when they oath go for the karakas and look at them crieing...Razz

But seriously the only way for fish to have a reasonble matchup is to either: 1) transformational sideboard 2) A lot off hate cards (wich weakens it against other decks quite a lot) 3) wizards prints a card that is fantastic against oath (like 1W: each player sacrifices all creatures with power greater than 2)

This is because oath has a strategic superiority over fish, it just has to resolve 1 card backed with a HUGE amount off card advantage and counters...Fish can only hope that it can steal enough tempo from the oath player and win that way, wich doesn't happen to often...
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« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2005, 09:55:17 am »

Quote from: Freelancer
But seriously the only way for fish to have a reasonble matchup is to either:
3) wizards prints a card that is fantastic against oath (like 1W: each player sacrifices all creatures with power greater than 2)

Why would this help against oath?

Anyway, Annul is great, since it helps against Trinisphere if you play first.
But you should have that AND Pit/Bombardment, because he can just Force through your Annul and win anyway.
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Freelancer
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« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2005, 12:41:15 pm »

If it's a instant it would be quite fun to wreck all of there creatures...although I should have been remove all creature with power greater than 2 from the game to be REAL strong against oath...It was just something that I thought off in like 20 seconds so no it isn't to great against oath...But the example is off no real importance...
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Marton
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« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2005, 08:49:34 pm »

varchild war rider and caltrops hahahahaha
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PucktheCat
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« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2005, 11:48:00 am »

Some good options not mentioned so far, for those who play white:

Aura Fracture
Seal of Cleansing
Meddling Mage
Kami of the Ancient Law

I like Meddling Mage in the main and Aura Fracture in the board.  If either of these resolves early, Oath must remove them before it can win.  If they don't play Cunning Wish, they are a one card lock.

All of the options that target the creatures Oathed up are inherently flawed.  Every Oath deck is going to side in some combination of Triskelion, Pristine Angel, Morphling, Ancient Hydra, and Iridescent Angel, each of which is immune to some or all of the removal available to us.

Also, the original post way overrates Extract.  The first Extract does NOTHING to advance your gameplan.

The cards listed above also have the advantage of being useful in various degrees against other decks (Dragon) or strategies (NBLH in the form of Back to Basics or Blood Moon).  The several cards to get rid of your own creatures (Claws, Goblin Bombardment, etc.) have little utility against other decks and tend to give your opponent quite a long time to draw cards and find an answer to your sideboard, because you won't have much offense.

Leo
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Nantuko Rice
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« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2005, 12:21:19 pm »

In the Fish vs Oath matchup, I think Fish needs to play the control deck. Oath is just to fast and to big for fish to race against.

I think WU Vial Fish is better than RU Fish at the moment. White is a very good support color, with swords, meddling mage, and for style points you get to play Icatian Javelineers.

WU Fish can play the role of control much better while RU Fish plays beatdown much better (obviously).

Putting in vial but taking out null rod is worth it, IMO, because you gain access to uncounterable utility creatures such as Gilded Drake and Waterfront Bouncer.
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Nova442
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« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2005, 01:57:12 am »

I think that's incorrect.  I think in an aggro-control vs. control matchup you want to be the beatdown.  Remember the criteria:

Who has more counters and card-drawing?  That deck is the control. (OATH)
Who has more damage sources?  That deck is the beatdown. (FISH)

You can also think of it as the long game test.  If the game goes long, oath wins with inevitability.  More hard counters and more card drawing.  I think Fish has to try to play its game:  sneak in as much damage as you can while keeping the opponent off balance.  Then if they get the oath you have to hope for a finish with 'mancers or alpha strikes into blockers.

It's harder than it sounds, or at least it was for me.  But don't try to extend the game out so the avalanche of card drawing and mass counters comes online.  Go for the throat.
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« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2005, 08:53:10 am »

Actually, Oath can play both the aggressor (really combo) and control better than Fish can.  This is because it has more counter magic to force through an early oath, or sit back and use it's tools (b2b and strips) to slow you down while it finds its win.

The only way Fish can really try to achieve victory here is through hate.  This means lots of cards that are efficient answers to Oath's strategy: meddling mage, annul, disenchant effects, waterfront bouncer.  I wouldn't include stp or gilded drake since these may have little effect on the outcome.
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« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2005, 09:20:01 am »

Quote from: Nantuko Rice
In the Fish vs Oath matchup, I think Fish needs to play the control deck. Oath is just to fast and to big for fish to race against.

I think WU Vial Fish is better than RU Fish at the moment. White is a very good support color, with swords, meddling mage, and for style points you get to play Icatian Javelineers.

WU Fish can play the role of control much better while RU Fish plays beatdown much better (obviously).

Putting in vial but taking out null rod is worth it, IMO, because you gain access to uncounterable utility creatures such as Gilded Drake and Waterfront Bouncer.

I've found this list to be very good vs. oath and in general:

4x Aether Vial
4x Cloud of Faeries
4x Spiketail Hatchling
4x Meddling Mage
1x Voidmage Prodigy
1x Mistblade Shinobi
4x Ninja of the Deep Hour
4x Force of Will
3x Daze
1x Stifle
1x Swords to Plowshares
1x Seal of Cleansing
4x Standstill
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Mox Saphire
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
1x Faerie Conclave
4x Flooded Strand
3x Tundra
4x Island
Sideboard
3x Stifle
3x Null Rod
2x Swords to Plowshares
3x Seal of Cleansing
4x Icatian Javelineers
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Axor_the_Superman
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« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2005, 02:23:17 pm »

In my opinion this is a Vial Fish UW more strong in general matches

//Creatures: 16
4x Cloud of Faeries
4x Flying Man  - Better than spiketail for the sinergy with ninja
4x Meddling Mage
2x Voidmage Prodigy - you can't wish to see one of them if you play only 1 copy
3x Ninja of the Deep Hour  - they are a "legnazzo" (or unplayable card) if you draw them in first 7-8 cards  Smile

//Counter: 7
4x Force of Will
3x Annul - they counter oath win condition, tps wins accelerators (black, bargain, necropotence) animates vs Dragon.dec, mana artifacts.. In mirror match vial, curiosity, standstill, crucible... Lot of cards.


//Draw Engine: 8
4x Standstill
1x Ancestral Recall
3x Brainstorm (you must play something to watch cards and shuffle useless cards in grimory.

//Utilities:4
1x Time Walk (you can win with this card)
3x Sword to Plowshares (Colossus, oath, mirror, atog... This card can be really useful. If you doesn't look for a meta with those decks, you can put in other useful cards (stifle? Rods? serenity? Crucibles?)

//Protection: 4
4x Aether Vial

//Mana: Artifact: 2 Lands: 21
1x Black Lotus (how can you play without it??  :shock:  )
1x Mox Sapphire
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
4x Flooded Strand
4x Tundra
2x Island
1x Plains

Nb: Stifle is going to become useless, because:

- TPS makes a duress under play tendril (who'd be protected by fow)

- Dragon.dec has duress and counters (in Uxx version)

- Fetch... In many games Italian Players tap and sacrifice it when I can't do stifle, and I does not use this card from so much time.

Annul is better.

My 2 €uroCents

PS against oath this deck list has good match up for:

- 3 Stp
- 3 Annul
- 4 Meddling Mage
- 4 Vial
- 2 Void Mage prodigy
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AnFgangsta
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« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2005, 03:06:46 am »

LoL Bombardment is wicked :p Something I was just thinking about, acutally some of my posting on here and brainburst has suggested decks such as Gro, etc sideboard the oath engine (well Gro would sideboard the whole oath engine including the oath itself) consisting of 2 blessings and then some mean creatures like..Oh I dont know...Thorn Elementals, I think they would just laugh at Akroma and SoTN.

Maybe a few other goodies like gilded drake LoL That would be nice to put in the oath engine for a suprise.  Not only do you score a creature though with the Oath engine, but you replentish your library and counters which you used letting you keep the oath player on their heels.
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