Battle of the Sets VI - official tournament thread!

[Legend]

OK, so are we set on Invasion, or are there any further objections? If no one has any objections, I'm going to consider Invasion a done deal and ratify the updated list (leaving open the possibility of sligh alterations).

If there are no further objections, I'd like to move on to Odyssey and focus on finishing that list. The way I see it, here is the core of the UG Threshold deck that we ought to work off:


4 Roar of the Wurm
4 Call of the Herd
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Werebear
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Standstill
4 Careful Study
12 Forest
11 Island
1 Tarnished Citadel

(52 cards)


I think there are eight slots that are really up for debate.

The first issue that needs to be resolved is whether we are going with Upheaval or Traumatize. To me, its one or the other. Personally, I'm leaning towards Upheaval, since it can get this deck out of bad situations and totally turn the game around, although it provides threshold at a higher cc than Traumatize and does not have that mini-Quiet Spec aspect to it.  

And another thing about Upheaval: if it is used, I'd say 3 would be a fine number, but parallelflux just suggested using 4. I may actually not be against that idea. Now, I've almost never (if ever) seen 4 Upheavals used in a Constructed deck. However, what's the harm of using 4 as opposed to 3? You can just pitch any extras to Mongrel or discard them to Careful Study. So its either 3 Upheavals or 4 if we go the Upheaval route.

[Machinus]

4X Upheaval
4X Wild Mongrel
4X Nimble Mongoose
4X Werebear
4X Call of the Herd
4X Roar of the Wurm
4X Aether Burst
4X Standstill
4X Careful Study
1X Bearscape
10X Island
12X Forest
1X Citadel

Is this deck streamlined enough? It seems like this has the opposite problem that the old invasion list had - instead of having its curve too high, this deck's curve is super low. Also, while there is a lot of focus, I think the deck can be more streamlined:

We will start with the basics. We need the best cards for sure, so we have

4x Upheaval

4x Call of the Herd

4x Mongrel
4x Werebear
4x Standstill
4x Burst

4x Mongoose
4x Study

Notice the casting cost distribution of these spells. Eight 1 drops, and SIXTEEN 2 drops. Then there are four in the 3 slot, and four in the 6 slot. There is a huge gap between 2 and 6. There are some ways that the deck can deal with this, and ensure that it adds pressure.

First, werebear can accelerate the deck up to 4. This means we should focus on the 4 slot, since we should be able to fill turn three with a 1 and a 2 drop if we dont have a call of the herd. Roar is there in case we can get it into the yard (study, mongrel), but there should be more consistency with that slot. I propose we add three thought devourers there. Three because they are bad in multiples, and hopefully you will be upheavaling, so you are going to get all the cards back in your hand. Most of the cards in the deck compensate for the reduced hand size, with either draw, pumping, or flashback. Thought devourerer also really helps with getting threshold.

3x Thought Devourer

This leaves 25 slots for Roars and land. I propose we cut one Roar of the wurm, since you don't really want it in your hand, and add 22 lands:

12 Island
10 Forest

The above mana configuration is due to the 7 UU spells, as well as the strong play of going island-study. Study and Standstill will get you the green mana if you haven't drawn it already, whereas forests don't help you get islands or cast blue spells.

This leaves us with

3x Roar of the Wurm
4x Upheaval
3x Thought Devourer
4x Call of the Herd
4x Wild Mongrel
4x Werebear
4x Aether Burst
4x Standstill
4x Nimble Mongoose
4x Careful Study
10x Forest
12x Island

With this configuration, the deck has a great deal of options. It can be very aggressive with creatures, it can play control with the bounce and draw spells, or it can be a very tenacious aggro-control deck. The important thing is that the CC of spells is still very low, but the deck will never lose tempo since it does have draw, and it wants to spend all of its mana as frequently as possible. That way, it will never let go of any damage/card advantage that it gets in the early game, and will keep the pressure up until the opponent is at 0.

Ideas?

[Legend]

Based on the draws I've taken with this deck so far, I'll again emphasize that I'm really not comfortable with less than 24 lands, especially since this deck wants to reliably get four mana in play, then a bit more than that soon afterwards for an Upheaval, if needed. 24 lands is especially important if Upheaval is going to be such a focus of the deck. Extra lands, much like extra Upheavals, can be tossed to Studies or Mongrel. I think people are underestimating the mana requirements of this deck, especially the fact that it needs green and blue right away.

Also, I like Roar of the Wurm a lot, especially because of Careful Study. Without 4 Roars, the Studies will not be as good, and with 4 Studies and 4 Mongrels, I'm comfortable Roar can be tossed into the graveyard with regularity.

Here is the list I propose based on my previous list and all of the ideas you guys have been putting out:


4 Upheaval
4 Aether Burst
4 Standstill
4 Careful Study
4 Roar of the Wurm
4 Call of the Herd
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Werebear
4 Nimble Mongoose
12 Forest
12 Island

OR

12 Forest
11 Island
1 Tarnished Citadel

[parallelflux]

I too like 4 wurms. It doesn't look bad. I'm particularly interested on how well it can play against the onslaught deck. It seems like onslaught can outplay both upheavals and big wurms with its angel/rift/slide synergy. But hey, you never know.

I really like how the OD deck is developing.

[Legend]

Well, no point in dragging out the process. I'm going to ratify the new Odyssey deck unless there are any objections.

It seems to me that the only unresolved issue is the exact configuration of the manabase, but its probably going to be either 12 Forest/12 Island or 12 Forest/11 Island/1 Citadel. Similarly, Invasion looks done to me barring the possibility of minor adjustments to the mana and also the Recoil/Repulse issue. Recoil is more versatile and is in the current list. However, this deck would rather draw a card than make the opponent discard one. Also, Repulse is easier to cast and works better with Lobotomy in a lot of circumstances. For example, against Scourge, Recoil + Lobotomy is not an answer to Eternal Dragon, since they can just discard it off Recoil. However, Repulse + Lobotomy is. Then again, Recoil can save Invasion from certain death via Lightning Rift, for example.

So Recoil is in for now, but the question is - which is better against more opponents? The main issue is that without Recoil, Invasion has no way to return an annoying non-creature permanent once its hit the table. Otherwise, Repulse would definitely be the choice. Of course, another option would be to cut Undermine, which would leave Invasion still with 8 counters, but I'm not sure we want to do that. I'll look at all options though.

So except for the remaining minor adjustments, that should conclude the primary work on Invasion and Odyssey unless there are any other deck ideas that I really see as better than these. Now its just down to final adjustments.

[Nazdakka]

Odyssey: I like that list. I think I prefer the 12/11/1 manabase, for its additional stability. The Citadel can be used for colourless mana, and IMO losing a colour from the deck is more serious than the pain from Citadel. The only other switch I'd be tempted by is -1 Upheaval +1 Thought Devourer, but as you say, excess Upheavals can always be discarded to Careful Study. Good work guys

[parallelflux]

Here's a proposal for a new list for Ice Age:

Manipulation: (6)
3X Orcish Librarian
3X Demonic Consultation

Beats: (20)
4X Tor Giant
4X Orcish Cannoneer
4X Sabretooth Tiger
4X Knight of Stromgald
4X Flow of Maggot

Removal/Win: (7)
2X Lavaburst
4X Incinerate
1X Hecatomb

Disruption: (4)
4X Stone Rain

Land: (23)
4X Sulfurous Spring
9X Swamp
10X Mountain

Oh my god, no necropotence! I think some people overrate necro's power in the ice age deck. Ice age simply can't abuse a dark ritual, necro first turn play. It has very few early drops. I don't think it has any worthy 1 drop and the only 3 that came to mind for 2 drops were the white and the black pump knights and balduvian bears. Balduvian bears goddammit! For that reason, I don't like Necropotence at all. It has good synergy with zuran orb, but I don't know how helpful it will be to sacrifice lands (and thus land drops) for cards.

The deck switched from Aggro-control to aggro since I think the present aggro-control deck is a little confused. Its got both elements but Jolkuhaup only works in your favor if you have necro out, otherwise, its waay to damaging for yourself. Then its got crappy aggro creatures that are too costly for what you get out of them.

I'm not sure Ice Age has what it takes to make itself into a decent deck, but in my opinion, aggressiveness is the way to go.

Basically, the plan is to just beat with subpar creatures until you whittle your opponent's life total down into burn range, then consult for a lava burst or hecatomb for the win.

Stone Rain is there to disrupt mana intensive decks or just simply make them mana screw. Orcish Librarian to get rid of those stupid lands later in the game.

Potential cards to include:
Soul Kiss
Goblin mutant

What do you guys think?

[Legend]

I'm not going to lie to you - that list is absolutely horrible.


Abysmal, actually.


However, with that said, I am open to suggestions about Ice Age, and I also agree that Necropotence is not a requirement. After all, Ice Age lacks many of the support cards that made the assorted Necrodecks of the past so great. Moreover, Ice Age still hasn't won a match even with Necropotence. I'm hardly thrilled with current Ice Age deck; but finding a replacement is not so easy.

[Machinus]

In Ice Age, black and white provide the ability to destroy all types of permanents. With Icy as an artifact, we can start with a solid core of removal:

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Disenchant
4 Dark Banishing
4 Icequake (kills coffers, workshop, 3rd color, etc.)
4 Icy Manipulator

The creatures then are pretty obvious.

4 Abyssal Specter
4 Blinking Spirit
4 Foul Familiar
4 Knight of Stromgald

Then we have to add enough mana to play the deck, and we have:

14 Swamp
10 Plains

What do you think? The weakest cards are Icequake and Knight of Stromagald, but I think its important for Ice Age to be able to deal with lands, and the deck is weak in the 2-slot and the pump knight fills that well.

[Legend]

Not bad, but I'd rather stick with the power of Necropotence unless a great alternative is miraculously discovered. Although that list has good removal, the creatures as a group are pretty average and the deck is stuck drawing one card per turn, which means its removal won't be terribly difficulty to overcome. Its also kind of an in between deck - not blazingly fast or overpowering, not really equipped to play a shutdown control game, and not possessing any particularly unique aspects otherwise that will make it into a winner.

I've tried several times with Alfred in the past to come up with a good new deck for Ice Age, and each time we came away without a solution.
Alfred had a pretty decent Pox/LD deck, but it was really no more effective than the current deck. Ice Age just has a lousy card pool for this format.

I'll give the set one more look, but nothing exciting is going to suddenly pop up. If only Donate were in Ice Age.....

Anyway, I think that this discussion has run its course, and I'm ready to just leave things alone until the next Battle of the Sets tournament. I'm satisfied all the decks are in order, and I can't keep addressing every Battle of the Sets question or issue during the periods in between tournaments. I'd rather let the topic lay fallow until the next tournament because I really don't want this to become a year round commitment. My intent is to run the tournament for a couple of weeks every so often, but other than that, I have too much else going on to be doing this on a regular basis.

So, I'd like to thank everyone who participated in this latest round of revisions. Thanks for your input, suggestions, and ideas on Invasion and Odyssey.

Now unless there are any other pressing questions or concerns, I'm ready to end the discussion until the beginning of the next tournament later this year or early next year. I'm going to discuss a couple of final details with Alfred in the next day or two, and then I'll post any final comments or decklists afterwards. Other than that, you'll hear from me again when the next tournament begins. Thanks again.

[parallelflux]

One last question, don't you do a tourney shortly after a new set is released?

The next BotS will def be interesting. Ice Age will just have to suck it up for being so poorly designed.

[Legend]

Correct. I have generally done a tournament after a new set is released.

This time I may wait for two sets, since running the tournament is such a major production. There is a small chance I will do another after the next Kamigawa set, as I'd like to leave that possibility available. More likely I will wait until after Ravnica.

Also you wrote "Ice Age will just have to suck it up for being so poorly designed." What is that supposed to mean? Are you trying to insinuate that the current deck is poorly designed? Or are you merely noting that the card pool is weak?

Surely you jest if you think your Sabretooth Tiger.dec is better than the current build.

If anything, the only deck currently under consideration as a replacement is the following Pox deck designed by Alfred:

(This list is very approximate, as I don't recall Alfred's exact build)

4 Pox
4 Stone Rain
4 Icequake
4 Abyssal Specter
4 Knight of Stromgald?
4 Dark Banishing
4 Incinerate
4 Dance of the Dead?
4 Dark Ritual?
X Lands

The deck may have had Icy Manipulator and/or Foul Familiar, although I'm not sure. This build is just a rough sketch of what Alfred came up with. I'll ask him later what the exact build was.

[Nazdakka]

Correct. I have generally done a tournament after a new set is released.

This time I may wait for two sets, since running the tournament is such a major production. There is a small chance I will do another after the next Kamigawa set, as I'd like to leave that possibility available. More likely I will wait until after Ravnica.

Given the large workload of running these on you and Alfred, is there any reason you can't go back to the older system of contracting out some of the matchups to capable people who would like to run one of those decks? I can certainly see some of those decks having people wanting to play them through the tournament, particularly decks like Saga and Stronghold which let you play with old and long restricted powerhouses. That would reduce your workload while letting others in on the fun

[Legend]

Actually, the older system of playing the matches with other capable players was never officially eliminated. What happened is that while overall interest in the tournament (reading the reports and commenting, making predictions etc.) increased drastically, interest in actually participating and playing in the matches gradually decreased. More specifically the stable of capable players that I had been using kind of dried up. Fortunately, around the time that was happening, Alfred stepped in to fill the void.

So the gradual fading of help from the original group of assistants, coupled with Alfred's excellent work, led towards a system where I played all the matches with him exclusively over the past three tournaments or so. Ultimately, running the tournament with the help of one committed and intelligent person rather than with several people actually proved more efficient. No need to track down multiple people who themselves might have busy schedules. Instead, the tournament ran efficiently because Alfred and I had everything coordinated - we could just meet at a chosen time and blitz through a dozen matches in one sitting.

Another thing to note is that I almost never contracted out matches to other folks without my participation. I had a larger group of players involved early on, but with just a couple of exceptions in the first one or two tournaments, I have participated in every match. I want to personally make sure that everything runs smoothly. That remains true today.

Although in theory I'd have no problem bringing other capable players back into things, in practice it has not proved feasible in recent tournaments. Often, people will express interest in playing, but they are not really interested. There is a big leap betweeen someone saying "Oh cool I want to play!" and that person actually setting aside the time and being available. It is extremely time-consuming and annoying to coordinate matches and times to play when more than two people are involved, a fact which tends to cancel out any other possible benefits of such a system. Its even worse when people offer to play, or say they want to play, when they actually don't mean it.

It has just become easier for me to do it this way because it costs me even more time having to set up and coordinate matches when more people get involved. More moving parts, more variables. I need things to be run according to my schedule, rather than for me to be trying to fit my timetable into a bunch of different people's schedules. Its just been more efficient this way and I am concerned that bringing other people in will just add to the time problems.

Now, with that said, I would be willing to include 1 or 2 other people besides myself and Alfred if they were committed (and I mean really committed) to playing the matches when they say they will, and if they were committed to bringing the tournament to a conclusion within a reasonable period of time.  I can't have the tournament dragging out for over a month because people can't honor their commitments.

Moreover, these people would have to be good players. The brutal truth is that many of the people who post on these forums and others like it are horrible players and stupid people, and I can't have the matches influenced in that way. So the players, as you said, would need to be capable and intelligent, and they would need to know how to play the decks. I can determine to a reasonable degree a person's general competence by seeing what they write, and usually thats a decent indicator of their playing ability and/or intelligence level.

But again, that is an issue that can be ironed out at a later point. For now, this discussion is becoming too time consuming for me and I'd really like to conclude it. If you are REALLY interested in playing when the next tournament comes around, you should contact me at that point and we would work things out.

This discussion could just keep going and going, and I really don't want that, and can't have that. So again, I will post the final decklists for Invasion and Odyssey (and perhaps Ice Age) after discussing things with Alfred this weekend. Thanks again to all.

[parallelflux]

Also you wrote "Ice Age will just have to suck it up for being so poorly designed." What is that supposed to mean? Are you trying to insinuate that the current deck is poorly designed? Or are you merely noting that the card pool is weak?

Surely you jest if you think your Sabretooth Tiger.dec is better than the current build.

Nope, I wasn't referring to your deck, just that Ice Age the set totally sucks ball.

I was toying with a UWB build earlier that included Swords, Binding Grasp, Merieke, Blinky, and Icy, but while that version runs good cards (yes, I don't think Merieke Ri Berit is bad), the mana base is a severe issue. Which led me to ponder if some kind of ponza-esque deck that has a good mana base is viable, and thus, the "Sabretooth Tiger.dec" I proposed. I'm not saying Sabretooth tiger is good, its just the general awfulness of the set, thus, I had put the next best creature for those 4 slots. Those 4 slots can actually be something in black (foul familiar, abyssal specter) or even balduvian barbarian but the overall power would not really matter too much. I preferred the first strike over the 2 nonflyers and thought the specter might be slightly too costly for the quality you get. If we are still talking about the b/r aggro build, the 8 slots up for debate is really tor giant and tiger for which I think specter could be a fine replacement.

The point I was trying to suggest with the new decklist was that perhaps Ice Age can be made more aggressive and thus more focused. Hence, the inclusion of a few bad creatures.

Anyway, the ultimate decision is up to you and I actually like Alfred's decklist quite a bit.

[Legend]

Yeah, no problem, I figured you must have been talking about the set as a whole. Ice Age truly has a lousy card pool for this format, despite having some excellent individual cards.  Anyway, I hope to have some finalized lists up later today to put a wrap on this discussion.

[Legend]

OK, I discussed things with Alfred earlier. Basically, the Odyssey list is set, probably 12/12 on the lands, although maybe I'll reconsider Tarnished Citadel at some point. Invasion is pretty close to set, although there may be some changes made later on. Ice Age will stay as is for now, then we will look at it again before the next tournament. So things are more or less set, and all suggestions/alterations will be tabled until right before the next tournament. That's where we stand for now.

Please hold any suggestions, comments or questions until right before the next tournament, sometime after the release of Ravnica. I will not discuss BOTS any further until that time, nor will I be available to do so. So again, I'd appreciate it if you'd all wait until then.

This discussion is now over, and thanks again to all. Look for BOTS VII sometime later this year or early next year!

[Jacob Orlove]

In that case, I'll just go ahead and lock this. PM me if you need it reopened for any reason.