W/G Tempo [Deck]

[Ben Kossman]

I'm trying to figure out a viable 5 proxy deck for this summer in Chicago.
I've seen builds similar to the one I'm about to post make Top 8 in Europe.
I'm just looking to tweak it so it's competitive in a post-Trinisphere metagame...

Beatdown:22
4 Rogue Elephant
4 Skyshroud Elite
4 Jungle Lion
4 Savannah Lion
2 Isamaru Hound of Konda
4 Rancor

Disruption:16
4 Root Maze
3 Winter Orb
3 Null Rod
3 Seal of Cleansing
3 Swords to Plowshares

Mana:22
4 Windswept Heath
4 Savannah
4 Land Grant
1 Plains
1 Forest
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring

Sideboard
4 Aether Vial (These are good enough to run MD, I'm definitely testing them. But for now I just bring them in against Blue based control.)
4 True Beleiver (A bit mana intensive but worth it vs. TPS)
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Swords to Plowshares



The beatdown this deck brings is suprizingly effective backed by pretty strong disruption. Turn 1 Root maze is pretty brutal vs. most of the good decks out there and doesn't slow this deck down much at all. Winter Orb is probably replacable as is Null Rod w/True Beleiver and Aether Vial the most viable replacements I can think of offhand. The tougher matchups would probably be decks like Sligh and Fish that don't care about  Root Maze, Oath is also a big problem but I do have Swords and Seals so it's
at least winnable if a bit of a longshot.  Anyway I'd love to see any other builds that are out there and appreciate any input in advance. I'll go in depth on matchups in my next post.

[KDenz81]

This looks like an old fun green white beatdown deck that a friend of mine used to play.  However, they ran things like River Boa, Tundra Wolves, Blurred Monguse and Choke.  Choke is killer against most blue control or combo decks.  Gotta love when they can't untap their Islands, or duals.  Also, running some of the Hidden creatures would be cool in this deck.  Hidden Gibbons, Guerrillas, and Herd are probably the most effective in the type 1 environment.  Also, you see more artifact hate than enchantment hate.
So those are the suggestions I'd make.
Denz

[Ape]

Wow, looks classic. I like it  

1. Do you really think you need the Strips in de side? Wouldn't it be better if you were playing some more disruption, like Ground Seal for example?
2. What do you think of the Elite's?
3. Maybe a bit strange, but what do you think of Xantid Swarms sideboard? They help you playing your stuff, resolve cards like Seals versus Oath etc, etc.

Anyway, I like your deck.

Ape.

[Ben Kossman]

I based it off Olle Rade's deck from a pretty good while ago back in the
day. I think it made the top 16 in the World Championships back when Necro was just beginning it's reign of Terror. Xantid Swarm wouldn't be horrible it could make Blue based control much less of an issue. Also they allow me to keep Null Rod which doesn't suck either. Some other cards I'm considering...

Spurnmage Advocate (Vs. Tog, Workshop Aggro, Madness,Oath)
Tangle Wire (Would this be superior to Winter Orb? The CC kind of sucks
for this manabase...)
Kami of Ancient Law (Seems like a strong choice vs. Oath)
Mother of Runes/Quirion Ranger (Kind of a cute combo and good overall
synergy with Advocate too...)
Skullclamp (Probably not using this since it doesn't work with Null Rod but
a definite possibility if for some reason I got rid of  Null Rod...)

This particular build is trying to avoid using threats that cost over 1 mana
so my choices are pretty limited unless I adjust the manabase accordingly.
The more I think about it the better Spurnmage Advocate, Mother of Runes and Quirion Ranger sound. I'm a bit wary of removing threats from the
deck but 2/1's aren't that intimidating to begin with so maybe I've got something there.

[warble]

Hey,

  It may not seem that much difference to have 1/1's instead of 2/1's but consider your "ideal" draw.  If you have 1/1's and 2/1's and play lotus+forest+4 creature drop you get between 4 and 8 damage with 2/1 and 1/1's.  If you have only 2/1's you get 8 damage.  If your opponent fails to drop a creature on first turn you swing for 8, then 6, then 6 if one creature dies.  This is a total of 20 damage exactly.  If you limit yourself to less then 2/1's, you're playing with a broken clock essentially.  The reason stompy is so great is that it's more consistent then everything that ever existed prior to it.  If you sacrifice this consistency, the only gain you can have is to slow your opponent.  So fine, root maze and tangle wire and wastes and strip are great.  But 1/1's are NEVER great unless they say tap to do 2 damage or weld or are friggin' free.  It's not an excuse to break a deck's clock just to put in some weird situational stuff, I've had green weenies to playtest against since '96 and I promise the only reason it is consistent and it never breaks down is because you keep dropping 2's and your clock keeps ticking.  Especially if you want some rogue elephants doing amazing stuff, you need to keep to 2 minimum.  If you do any 1/1's and they aren't free your broken clock will make the deck take too long and you'll lose, end of story.  I need 1 thirst for knowledge with control slaver and 1 resolved welder, so if I don't draw mox and I need 4 turns to hit that off, and I have 1 force, you're going to need all the 2 power you can get.  Any 1 and I let it through simply because you aren't going to break my clock with it, and you're going to allow me the 1 extra turn I need to win.

[Ben Kossman]

OK so I got it right the first time. I agree that a horde of 2/1's can add up
in a hurry. So I'll try to keep at least 10-12 of them in the deck. The thing
with Quirion Ranger, Mother/Advocate is that  it puts the deck over the top
vs. Oath which is at the moment  is my worst nightmare (Not to mention
a tempting option for 5 proxy tournaments). The thing with the initial build
of this deck is that drawing 2 WORbs ,Rootmaze, or Null Rod sucks ass.
I want to replace some of the redundant cards for stuff that's always usable. Here's another take on it ...

Creatures:19
2 Isamaru Hound of  
4 Savannah Lion
4 Rogue Elephant
3 Mother of Runes
3 Quirion Ranger
3 Spurnmage Advocate

Other Stuff:20
3 Seal of Cleansing
3 Wax/Wane
4 Rancor
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Root Maze
2 Null Rod
1 Balance
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Strip Mine

Mana:19
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Savannah
3 Windswept Heath
3 Land Grant
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald

It's getting a bit more controllish but I don't think that's a bad thing as
the deck never kills before turn 4 anyway no matter how many 2/1's
I play, against Oath that's a recipe for a miserable death without Spurnmage Advocate to back up STP's. Wax/Wane is also custom made
for this deck and gives it the kind of redundancy I'm looking
for.  The side is made to combat Fish for now as it's by far my worst
matchup Mother of Runes makes things a little more interesting game
1 where with the initial build it was definitely in their favor once Lavamancer hits the board.

Sideboard
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
???

[[supa_t(im)]]

During my work on R/G Tempo, my team and I worked on a W/G Tempo.  Its fairly similar to your build, but I think its more control oriented, and more similar to R/G.

//ABS W/G Tempo\\
//Mana 24
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
2 Plains
2 Forest
1 Strip Mine
1 Mox Emerald (PR)
1 Mox Pearl (PR)
1 Black Lotus (PR)
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

//Creatures 20
4 River Boa
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Icatian Javelineers
4 True Believer
4 Samurai of the Pale Curtain

//Utility 16
4 Rancor
4 Seal of Cleansing
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Root Maze

//Sideboard 15
4 Dust to Dust
4 Ground Seal
4 Aether Vial
3 Null Rod

The mana base is pretty stable.  I would go down to 2 duals, but the WW cc of some of the critters makes me want to stick with 4.  2 of each basic helps things as well.  No land grant because of my testing with it in R/G:  counterable fetch that let your opponent know what you are doing in a non-combo deck are really bad.  You should really have no trouble getting the mana you need with this deck

River boa is really important in the deck.  He drives control crazy, and is a good rancor target.  Birds of paradise almost always get through, and help immensly when casting the believer and the samurai.  They also help with tempo, especially under a root maze.  Icatian javlineers are for killing welders.  They aren't as efficient as mogg fanatic, but that extra damage can come in handy in a lot of situations.  True believer is extra protection against combo.  Root maze + believer can really buy you some time for beatdown.  Believer also beats for a decent amount.  Samurai is more protection against welders, or dragon.  She is also great in combat (if you ever see it).  Her only downside is that she stops rancor recursion, but its worth it.

Rancor is obviously a great card for this deck, and you already know why.  Seal of cleansing is simply amazing against the field.  It kills anything from a mox, to a smokestack, to oath of druids.  Similar to naturalize in R/G, you will almost never find a deck that it won't be useful against.  Swords takes out welders, random artifact fat, oathed fatties, or even fish.  Yes, this card can be dead is some matches, but it helps in some of the bad matchups.  Root maze is obviously good against combo, and basically every other deck.  All the hate in the deck goes very well with root maze on the table.

The SB needs some work, as its probably not optimum for the post 3sphere meta.  It should also be more meta dependent.

The deck shouldn't actually have too much trouble with Oath.  If you are able to resolve a turn 1 maze, or at least bait out a counter for a turn 2 seal.  With rancor even their orchard tokens become threats.  If they go mox, orchard, oath you are pretty much screwed, but that doesn't happen often, and not a lot (if any) decks can recover from that anyway.

Against fish, javlineers helps.  STP should target lavamancers.  Seal is also helpful to take out curiosity, or CoW.  Wasteland and root maze can do a number on their manabase and aggressiveness taking out or stalling manlands.  If you are having trouble with opposing wastelands drop 2 savannah for more basics.  Maybe some CoW in the SB for this match.  Vial can help since your creatures will be uncounterable, and it dodges standstill.

Against stax, seal is good game 1.  Dust to dust may be uneeded now that 3pshere is restricted (or will be on the 20th).  You have some answers to welder MD which is good, and ground seal can come in if needed.  Samurai helps here as well.

Combo you have 8 cards MD against it.  4 Root maze and 4 true believer.  If you can resolve both things can go your way.  It basically makes game 1 winable.  Game 2-3 null rod can come in to give you 11 cards against combo, the amount same the R/G uses.  Really not a unwinable match, but TPS is a hard matchup.  I'm not sure if there are any more white or green combo hate cards.  Maybe rule of law, if there is room, but it may be overkill with 11 other cards.

This is the build that I've been having some luck with.  I think that the deck can be quite good, it shares some good matchups with R/G, but also has some better and worse matchups.

Hope this helped.

Good Luck!

[PipOC]

Just so you know, jungle lion is in portal which doesn't become legal until october, wild dogs might be a sufficient replacement, but I suggest rethinking the deck.

[AnFgangsta]

Ben: I do like the idea of the deck, and one important aspect to note is that Null Rod is not your only means of slowing the opponent. The Vintage forum was discussing Null Rod and if its still good, and the very very important conclusion made was that yes, but it loses a lot of effectiveness when it becomes your ONLY form of disruption/stalling/lockdown etc. The use of Root Maze, Null Rod...AND Winter Orb is just awesome looking to me, I am going to be testing it out tonight and let you all know.

One concern I have right off the bat though is the lack of Wasteland..this deck would be even more powerful with Wasteland, causing your opponent to just scream when they are mana screwed thanks to your disruption of the mana base. Now you could argue that wasteland messes up the whole mana base of this deck also, but remember, old school Sligh used to play what..like 8 mountains and still was able to be effective and maindeck 4 Wastelands AND Strip Mine.

[AnFgangsta]

Ok I played it a few times today against various decks and here is what I think. It had trouble against an ancient mono black deck (hyppies, order of ebon hand, all stuff around necro's time) order was a real problem, and my suggestion is going to tie into the next deck.

Control Slaver was the next deck I played against, did some serious damage, but welder ended up doing me in ultimately, so thus I suggest also adding Cursed Totem, to take out random decks and stuff that shows up from time (masticore, etc) and also current threats. Now I dont know if this calls for maindecking of Totem, but I would highly reccomment sideboarding it.  Oxidize seems like it would be a nice addition to the deck dealing with lightning fast Juggy's at a very affordable price (I know, here I am advocating Oxidize again, but its so good its stupid in this deck especially where mana can be hard to come by at times.

Ultimately though, Oath is going to be a problem for example, my suggestion would have to be sideboarding Oath engine of Blessing and big things like Darksteel Collossus or Thorn Elementals and you should be alright, not much else you can do without adding another color. However one possibility is that card from Od I think where each player sacrifices an enchantment for G..that would work great here (sorry the card's name escapes me)

[[supa_t(im)]]

@AnFgangsta
If you put in too much hate, it dilutes the deck.  I think eight disruption is enough for the deck (4 maze, 4 believer).  Although, if I can find room, I do like the idea of WOrb.  The deck runs on a really low mana curve, and with birds, its dawback is slight.  I also agree with you that wastelands and a strip mine need to be in the deck.  They are like any decks basic disruption.

As for the mono black deck:  how often are you gonna see order of the ebon hand, or black knight at a tournament?  Of course this deck had a problem with it, its white.  I suppose if its dominating your meta, you could put a few MD things in there.  Basking rootwalla could work, making their discard more fun, and keeping their pro-white guys back a little.

Against control slaver 4 cards come in handy:  4 STP, 4 Icatian Javlineers, 4 Seal of Cleansing, 4 Root Maze.  Swords can kill welder, don't worry about using it on welders, thats what they are there for.  Javlineers are good at killing welders, not incredibly efficient, but that one damage is still all you need.  Seals take out any number of welder food items, and work really well under root maze.  Root maze causes every single one of their welded items to come into play tapped, giving you an opportunity to "seal" their fate.  SB ground seal, and you should have little problem.

Your cursed totem idea could be promising.  Especially if you see a lot of fish, welder, black aggro, grim lavamancers, and other decks with a lot of activated abilities.  Could be one of those sleeper techy cards.

As for Oath, the matchup is actually easier for this deck than it is for R/G.  You have root maze, wastelands, seal, STP, rancor, river boa.  All these things either stall Oath, or help you beat them to the point where it doesn't matter if they get to activate Oath.  I haven't had a real problem with Oath unless they go "orchard, mox, oath, go."

[Ben Kossman]

The deck actually really gets to lookin kinda good without Null Rod as well.
Another card that really stands out as worthwhile is Glowrider. I'm breaking my own criterion for the deck by including him but he's basically a one sided Sphere of Resistance that this deck can easily play turn 1 or two and it even causes a signifigant swing turn 4 when played via vial, it also beats for two which is important. OK, here's what I'm testing at the moment (Mostly against Fish and Slaver).

Artifact:8
1 Winter Orb
4 Aether Vial
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald

Green:20
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Rancor
4 Root Maze

White:21
4 Glowrider
2  Isamaru
4 Savannah Lion
4 Weathered Wayfarer
4 Mother of Runes
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Aura of Silence

Land:10
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Strip mine
4 Land Grant
4 Savannah

This is winning around 40% versus what I think are it's worst matchups so I'll keep on working and let ya'll know how it goes. Thanks a lot for the
interest ya'll made some very relevant suggestions, keep them coming.

[Ben Kossman]

I've been testing and Aether Vial isn't as great as I thought so I'm putting
back Null Rod and I'm adding True Beleiver as this deck is in the end similar to Prison. It wants to disrupt first and the beatdown is really an afterthought. Vial is still excellent vs. Fish and Stax though so it's staying in the Sideboard. I really love River Boa as well but I'm trying to keep the deck as curvacious as possible so True Belever's my only two drop critter for now. If I was playing in an unpowered metagame I would use Boa without a second thought. Anyway here's the latest version...

Artifact:6
3 Null Rod
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus

Green:24
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Rancor
4 Root Maze
4 Land Grant

White:22
3 Glowrider
3 True Beleiver
4 Savannah Lions
2 Isamaru Hound of Konda
4 Mother of Runes
3 Seal of Cleansing
3 Swords to Plowshares

Land:8
1 Strip Mine
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Plains
1 Forest
4 Savannah

I'd like to hear people's thoughts on Glowrider. He's a bit steep at three
mana but his effect is just brutal combined with Root Maze and possibly
Winter Orb. Anyway I think this deck is close to competitive. Further ideas
are much appreciated...

[[supa_t(im)]]

I still think there are some problems with your deck.

1.  Mana Base.  You are woefully slim on land.  Sure this deck can function on a low mana curve, but since one of the ways you get mana out is counterable, you are really setting yourself up for mana screw.  Sure land grant is good with root maze, but it lets your opponent see your hand (which is never a good thing unless you are gonna win this turn), and is counterable (which is bad because you already run very few land).  You also are not very waste proof with 2 basic lands.

I would suggest going up to at least 17 land (which would make 20 with moxen/lotus), dropping the land grants, add fetchlands, add basics, add wastelands.  This will give your manabase some stability, protection from wastelands, and added disruption to your opponents mana base.  Yes, fetchlands aren't great with root maze, but you only run 4, and you are definitely less reliant on them than most other decks.

2. Creature Base.  I really don't see a point to the Quirion Ranger + Mother of Runes combo.  In fact, I think the ranger will slow your tempo down, especially with root maze.  I would rather run better utility creatures here, like the javlineers, or more land.  I know you wanted to keep the creature casting cost low, but with more land and BoP you can easily use 2cc creature effectively.  River boa is probably better than savannah lions here because it doesn't die as easily and can get through most of the time.  Glowrider is an interesting innovation.  I would keep testing him, but it would really make it easier to cast him with more land (we keep coming back to that don't we).

3.  Hate/Utility.  Root maze is awesome, keep it.  True believer is awesome, keep it, bump up to 4.  Null rod isn't so hot MD anymore.  I really liked your idea of winter orb here because of its interaction with root maze.  With birds and more land (there it is again)  WOrb can be a really good inclusion in the deck.  I would put it in the rod slot because it helps against the control matchup, and you already have some good hate against combo (maze, believer).  Your other cards are all good, maybe try to fit a enlightened tutor to fetch things, although I've found that the card advantage it gives up is not worth it.  Just spitting out ideas.

As it stands right now, it looks like you will be able to beat control slaver, but thats about it.  If you add some utility, better mana base, and tighten the deck up a bit it can potentially be competitive against the whole metagame.

Good Luck!!

[Ben Kossman]

I definitely agree with you on the mana base. It could use a little stabilization.
But don't knock Quirion Ranger till you test it. In the current build I have it's
quite good when I don't draw a second land it let's me bounce the one I've
got if someone tries to waste it or when I simply want to replay it and use
it again, with Birds active I even get extra mana. I'd love to add Wasteland
main as it is an ideal card for this deck it's just really tough to figure out what
to cut. I'll let you know when I figure it out. Thanks for the advice...

[AnFgangsta]

I really liked the initial mana base for the deck's objective, to stall and disrupt long enough to bash their brains in. A few things I feel should be noted are Null Rod and Root Maze's similarities, I mean correct me if Im wrong but they are being used for the same principle right?

Cutting one opens up slots for Cursed Totem which combined with either can be pretty devistating. This ofcourse would then destroy the idea of using mana producers, but I dont feel they are really necessary. I had no problem drawing into mana when I needed it.

I did feel however that the addition of Mother of Runes slows the deck down too, again the point was to disrupt and destroy, and MoR is more of a supporting card which does not fit into the deck's intitial objective in my opinion.

On the topic of the initial decklist, I mean even an old school Giant Growth can prove to be effective. Just my opinion, hope it helps and sparks further discussion.

[Ben Kossman]

The consensus I seem to have gotten so far says that a more aggressive
build is in order so here's version 3.0...

Artifact:6
3 Null Rod
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl

Green:20
4 Wild Mongrel/River Boa (I like Mongrel better but the boa can never be
ruled out...)
4 Quirion Ranger (These guys stay, they really are excellent with such a limited manabase)
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Rancor
4 Rootmaze

White:22
4 Glowrider
4 True Beleiver
4 Savannah Lions
2 Isamaru
4 Seal of Cleansing
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Enlightened Tutor

Land:12
4 Savannah
3 Windswept Heath
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland

So there's what I've got based on ya'lls suggestions. I'd like to hear thoughts on Glowrider and also Mongrel over Boa as these are probably
the "open" slots in the deck at the moment. They're both pretty good
cards and I never regret drawing them but could be replaced with other
creatures in order to streamline the mana curve. Thoughts are much
appreciated...