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Author Topic: Short Bus NINJA SWORD, new aggro control  (Read 7710 times)
Kowal
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« on: April 03, 2005, 07:54:31 pm »

This is a project I've been tinkering with for a while, but due to a lack of interest from my team (including myself) it got pushed aside for other projects.  I figure there's no reason to horde old decklists, so here's my baby:  NINJA SWORD.  (And yes, the all caps is important.  Ninjas are intimidating, damn it)


Quote
Short Bus NINJA SWORD

4 Withered Wretch
4 Gorilla Shaman
3 Old Man of the Sea
3 Ninja of the Deep Hours
2 Gilded Drake

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Brainstorm
3 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Consultation

4 AEther Vial

1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald

1 Strip Mine
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Island
4 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island

SB:
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Keldon Vandals
2 Annul
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Wasteland
2 Diabolic Edict




Creature Base

The original purpose of this deck, aside from using Ninjas and Swords, was to be an aggro control deck similar to fish but with relevant disruptive creatures.  Spiketail Hatchling just plain sucks.

Withered Wretch, on the other hand, is a brick fucking house.  This guy beats the crap out of all sorts of stuff, but usually negating Yawgmoth's Will is his deal.  He also prevents random losses to welding in fat or slavers, and prevents a slaver hard lock.  Screwing over Dragon and Cerebral Assassin is neat too, but those come up pretty rarely.  If he was a 2/2 dork that said Yawgmoth's Will cannot be played though, he'd still be good enough for me.

Gorilla Shaman is another one of those creatures with a very cheap and helpful ability.  Shaman I especially like because he's very good at ensuring turn two ninjas.

Old Man of the Sea is something I'm not sure belongs in the deck at all.  I wanted something capable of stealing annoying little creatures to improve my FCG and the odd Grow matchups, but when he carries a sword he can also steal Platts and other junk that normally really bothers the deck.  Being able to steal welders is also helpful, because Sword of Fire and Ice only resolves on its own like once every ten times I try, and a stolen welder makes getting it in to play a good deal easier.

I had to keep the Ninja count under 4, because seeing two ninjas usually sucks unless I have a drain heavy hand or something.  I've actually been really happy with how effective the ninja is when he comes down early though, in a deck with eight counters it's not too unlikely I'll find a new one with some regularity, and when he carries a sword he's a massive threat.

The maindeck Gilded Drakes have been nothing short of gold.  These make my Oath matchup about a hundred times better all on their own, but they also really piss off people playing with Tinker or sometimes Animate Dead.  Obviously some of the surprise value of having them maindeck is gone now that I'm posting the list, but I still think they belong there.


Spells

Force of Will is pretty friggen obvious.

Mana Drain on the other hand seems a little out of place because of the deck's fish-based history, but I always wanted a couple extra counters, and between the abilities on my eight prime beaters, the mana cost on the Ninja and his Sword, and random dumb shit like Aether Vial, there's always some place useful for the mana to go.  I've been very happy with these in the deck.

Originally I had a wet dream for the concept of Standstill + Aether Vial, but without Aether Vial Standstill was trash.  Brainstorm was still not exactly what I was hoping for, but I've been unable to find a spell I like better here.  I do have a million fetches though, so I'm almost always able to get rid of crappy cards when I have to.

My first list also had 4 Sword of Fire and Ice, but that's definitely too many.  The biggest problem with seeing SOFAI is that I was often too scared to cast it, because it's a big fat sorcery speed spell that says "DRAIN ME!" on it.  It is still ridiculously strong though, and it gives the deck that little extra punch in welder removal and drawing.  It's just not something I want as a 4 of.

Demonic Consultation was originally a Demonic Tutor, but I realized every time I cast Demonic Tutor, I wanted to get something I had plenty of copies of in my deck.  The deck has a lot of big numbers next to the card names, and there's nothing restricted I'm worried about removing, so I cut the Tutor for this one, and never looked back.

Aether Vial has been a brick friggen house in the deck.  Cheating casting costs is one thing, but, well...  Let me quote myself from the TSB boards earlier in development of the deck.
Quote from: Kowal
And in regards to Aether Vial, I tried dinking the count to 3 for that update, and found myself missing the 4th a lot. Their role in the deck was underappreciated by me, and I won't make that mistake again. It does so much ninja shit that ruins peoples setups. Some of the better examples..
-I can make men hit play while leaving Drain open.
-I can put men in to play without extending in to Drain.
-I can dodge cost effecting spells like Sphere of Res and Trinisphere
-I can dodge Chalice, Pillar, Lab, etc
-I can ninja out blockers for a Goblin Welder
-I can ninja out Withered Wretch in response to an overextended Yawgmoth's Will (this comes up against Slaver a lot)
-I can ninja out Gorilla Shaman in response to a weld
-I can recover without wasting time when I transform a creature in to a ninja of the deep anus
-I can fuck with Oath by dropping Drake during the combat step
-I can almost ignore prohibitive mana costs
-The threat of a first turn Aether Vial is enough to scare off even the most steadfast of homobuttlove aliens



Mana

I decided to run the off color moxen originally because I wanted to spit out earlier swords and hardcast ninjas.  When I began cutting some of the generic costs, I became worried I'd have to cut an off color mox or two.  The testing I've done shows that this is not the case however, and the off color moxes and their friend Sol Ring actually still help out a lot, mainly for paying for Wretch/Shaman's abilities.

I only run the one Strip Mine because everybody is still running nothing but basic lands, and it's bothering me.  You could easily manipulate the manabase a little bit to fit more Wastelands in the maindeck, but I don't intend to do so until Control Slaver players are so content with Stax gone that they have two or fewer basics.

The rest of the manabase is pretty self explanatory.  I don't like the Island much, but I recognize that it's probably a necessary evil.  If you were looking to fit in a wasteland, well... that might be your slot.


The Sideboard

I don't usually like posting sideboards since they should be different for every metagame, but shit, so should maindecks, so whatever.

Pillar was included because the combo matchup was mediocre.  Vial lets me dodge my own pillar when dropping men in to play, and casting Ninjas doesn't even hurt.  Plus, I do intend to be dealing damage in the early turns with my beaters, so Pillar supplements my primary strategy anyway.

Keldon Vandals was included because it's a freaking house against Null Rod decks and workshops.  I remembered Lord of the Goats using this guy with great success in the TnT mirror, and I've been continuing that success with him in NINJA SWORD.

Annul was included to shore up a minor hole against Oath, as well as give a little help against workshops if I'm on the play.  It may not even be necessary anymore (I've been seeing a decline of oath and stax since the restriction) but I would still be running it just in case.

Tormod's Crypt is a ridiculous house, and comes in any time Withered Wretch might be too slow, like against Dragon and Cerebral Assassin.  These two slots are negotiable, but if you see any dragon/ca I wouldn't cut them.

Two wastelands were sideboarded because I'm horrified by Bazaar of Baghdad, and mildly irritated by manlands.  These are also negotiable, but I have been liking them.

The Edicts were purely as a solution to random stupid aggro and Pristine Angel.  I confess I haven't tested them much, but they're good on paper.



Matchup data

Oath:  Decided almost entirely by what utility dorks you can find in game one.  If you stumble across the Drakes or they can't get oath up until it's too late, you usually win.  Otherwise it's bad news.  I would keep the drakes in for game two despite the fact they probably bring in Pristine or Iridescent or both, because most Oath players leave in Akroma and just board out the Spirit of the Night or Hydra.  You should be bringing in Edicts and Annuls at the cost of Old Man of the Sea and a card of your choice.  I would probably bring out a Gorilla Shaman, since Withered Wretch's ability is more useful here.

Slaver:  I tested the bajeezus out of this matchup with a couple people, but most of my testing was against Outlaw, who just completely rolled over and died in pretty much every game.  I designed the deck to smash slaver when piloted any less than optimally, and it does the job very well.

Gifts Belcher:  This matchup was only marginally worse than Slaver, due to the fact that Belcher often never goes to the graveyard for me to Wretch away, and in addition the deck has a little bit more brokenness to it.

Fish:  Usually a non issue, but Null Rod can be extremely annoying.  If I can get Sword or Old Man online, the game is over.  Game two Keldon Vandals will at the very least trade 2 for 1, but often is a freaking huge dork to add another clock to the fish player.

Tog:  Sword is extremely annoying for them, as is Withered Wretch.  I haven't tested this matchup extensively, but my limited testing shows that this is in NINJA SWORD's favor.

Cerebral Assassin:  This is a really boring matchup, mostly because it lacks any skill on your part.  If your CA opponent knows what they're doing, they can sometimes set up a play that beats your hate, but your average schmuck will just roll over and die if you see the right bombs.  Your sideboard Tormod's Crypts are very helpful here.

Dragon:  Same as Cerebral Assassin, but treat them with a little more caution since they can win in response.

3cc:  Usually a non issue.  Wretch shuts off their draw engine, and they usually need Yawgmoth's Will to win.  Decree can be obnoxious at times, but a man carrying a sword is big enough to ignore the little tokens, and most of the dorks in this deck can live through combat with tokens.  This matchup is actually better if they still run Tinker, because it gives you something fat to Gilded Drake.  I would board out Gilded Drake for games two and three if they don't run Tinker, in favor of Pillar.  The reason I select Pillar is because Tormod's Crypt doesn't do Wretch's job quite right against Skeletal Scrying, but Pillar makes casting a Scrying much more dangerous.

Combo:  Your matchup is as good as any deck's running 4 Drain 4 Force.  In game two though, you're the only person running Pillar.


Other card considerations

In testing, I've tried a couple things in the deck I didn't like as much as the currrent setup, but could still be solid in the right metagame.

Tinker is definitely something you could be fitting in here.  In addition to grabbing a Sword, this is one deck where getting a Colossus is a-okay.  If it gets even one swing, your game is considerably easier, whereas all the control decks running tinker-colossus in the fall last year were only marginally helped if they only got one swing.

I also tried Mistblade Shinobi as an amusing and ninja-themed way to piss off Oath, since you can use the spirit tokens to make ninjas with.  It was inferior to Gilded Drake most of the time, but still amusing and possibly worth fooling around with.

Other equipment was tried in the deck in addition to the sword, but the creature count just wasn't high enough to support more than 3 equips plus the aether vials.

An additional draw engine would be good.  Ninjas and Swords are great, but Brainstorm as I mentioned still feels weak.  Finding a suitable replacement would serve the deck pretty well.  Even Night's Whisper might be playable, but this is definitely the least tested part of the deck.

Other cheap dorks might be better in the Old Man slot, but I'm pretty sure Grim Lavamancer is the wrong man for the job.  This is something I've fiddled with quite a bit, but never found anything I was particularly happy with.


Closing notes

In testing, this deck did what I set out to do, but I just wasn't as impressed with it as a couple other projects we've been working on.  I didn't want to see it drop off the face of the earth though, so I figured I'd hand it to TMD to get some discussion going and perhaps help someone else figure out the right way to make the concept work.
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« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2005, 08:08:20 pm »

Kowal,

I tried something similar to this a while ago (before ninjas were printed, so it had an infinitely less cool name).  One of the major problems I ran into was the mana base in the deck.  Your list seems like it might encounter similar difficulties, with BB for Wretch, UU for Old Man, and UU for Drain, while incorporating 4 1-drops in Red.  In your experience, has it been hard to curve out as quickly as you'd like to, given the demands for different colors posed by your creatures?  I also didn't include Aether Vial in my attempt at this deck; was it included to correct the colored-mana demand problem and if so, how effective was it?
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Kowal
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« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2005, 08:14:51 pm »

Aether Vial is actually really helpful for allowing me to skirt the mana costs of my dorks quite a bit.  It also lets me keep drain online while dropping threats, which was huge.  I've been VERY happy with the Vial in testing.

The manabase as it stands is pretty good, but definitely not foolproof.  Occasionally I get those hands with a bunch of moxes and I have a tough time assembling BB for wretch or UU for Old Man and Drain, but it's usually rare enough that I don't worry about.  The land base works pretty well unless I maindeck wastelands.  I guess it's important to note (and I didn't in my post) that when I board in Wasteland, I board out off color moxen.
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« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2005, 08:25:30 pm »

Quote
I tried something similar to this a while ago (before ninjas were printed, so it had an infinitely less cool name). One of the major problems I ran into was the mana base in the deck. Your list seems like it might encounter similar difficulties, with BB for Wretch, UU for Old Man, and UU for Drain, while incorporating 4 1-drops in Red. In your experience, has it been hard to curve out as quickly as you'd like to, given the demands for different colors posed by your creatures? I also didn't include Aether Vial in my attempt at this deck; was it included to correct the colored-mana demand problem and if so, how effective was it?


Chris, in our testing, Ben was never screwed for either UU or BB in that matter.  That was of course myself playing two versions of control slavery, both intuition / ak and traditional slavery.  

The deck completely and utterly destroys Slaverys face, I was scared of certain decks before while playing slavery, but this is the top deck to be scared of.  Shamans make your game plan seem silly, while wretches make ak's / will retarded. Ninjas bring very quick card advantage, when resolved or ninjutsued in turn 2 bring a quick demise to slavery as their fundamental turn is quite higher.  With proper tweaking, I believe this can and perhaps will be the new aggro-control deck to beat.
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« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2005, 10:28:28 pm »

Quote
Other cheap dorks might be better in the Old Man slot, but I'm pretty sure Grim Lavamancer is the wrong man for the job. This is something I've fiddled with quite a bit, but never found anything I was particularly happy with.


would you be looking to fill this spot with removal, or would it be open to other types of creatures?

did you ever try voidmage for the slot? I always liked him in a blue based vial decks considering that he is an uncounterable counterspell, decent with vial, and can also beat for 2 in a pinch. It would also smooth out your vial settings by putting another guy at 2cc.
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Kowal
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« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2005, 10:44:01 pm »

I had Voidmage suggested to me a couple times, but I admit I tested him only very briefly.  I usually wasn't fond of him because he does the same job Mana Drain does, but not at the same time.  Though as I said, I only tested him very briefly.
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« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2005, 11:33:43 pm »

Seeing as how Vial is a house in extended, I expect it to eventually be a card we see in type 1.  It is an inexpensive artifact that makes all your win conditions uncounterable.  Very similar to Welder in a lot of ways.  That said, I'd tend to think it would be with a differant creature base.  

From a control standpoint, the only card I'd worry about would be sofai.  Ninja's would be a problem if left unchecked, but sword ends games much quicker.  2/2's and 1/1's are very similar to what fish had to offer.  Vs fish, one could just wait until you were ready to win, and then combo out.  IMO this is why workshop aggro has enjoyed success where fish has not.  

Wretch and Shaman could help in the fight to stop a game ending turn, but it would take a lot of convincing to make me fear them.  

Perhaps the biggest thing about this whole deck, is that it would just roll over to FTK.  Just a couple thoughts.  It looks like fun though.
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« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2005, 01:18:11 am »

Quote from: ELD
Wretch and Shaman could help in the fight to stop a game ending turn, but it would take a lot of convincing to make me fear them.  


The reason these two are a problem for CS is precisely because of Aether Vial.  When Ninja Sword decides to put them into play, they just come into play, and they do so at instant speed.  You cast Will, Sword responds by putting Wretch into play and nuking your graveyard.

So yes, it isn't necessarily true that you should fear Shaman and Wretch.  The Vial is what makes this deck work, and that is what a control deck needs to deal with.

The reason Fish left the meta as 5/3 showed up wasn't because of any particular failing of Fish's ability to kill its opponent, so much as its inability to effectively deal with 5/3's large men.   Decks such as these will typically get 3-4 power on the board, and that will kill you in a few short turns if you don't do something about it.

I do think your concerns about FTK are valid, but he uses up valuable sideboard space.    I think this deck is nicely poised to show up, shock some unprepared metagame, and win something.  The biggest problem I see with it is that it can have difficulty with combo.  Though it has about as many weapons as other decks, it has a more difficult time getting its draw engine online, and most combo decks are able to exploit any opening provided by their opponent.
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« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2005, 07:58:12 am »

Oh man, I got so excited for a second when I saw Ninja/Drake, until I reread the cards  Sad
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« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2005, 08:29:08 am »

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Vs fish, one could just wait until you were ready to win, and then combo out. IMO this is why workshop aggro has enjoyed success where fish has not.


How soon we forget.  I agree with Klep that Fish had a good run in spring/summer of '04 until the metagame adjusted: people played creatures, and slaver brought the tactical game beyond null rod.

I would argue that aggro-workshop was valid not because of it's clock, but strictly because of trinisphere.

This deck on the other hand, isn't as heavily defined by a lock card (null rod or trini), so I would guess the ways it wins, and the ways other decks beat it are not as comparable to fish.
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« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2005, 10:44:10 am »

Also, Fish was about keeping your opponent from cheating on casting costs, while this deck is about cheating on casting costs yourself in both overt and subtle ways (think Gilded Drake).
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« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2005, 01:52:28 pm »

As outlaw could probably tell you, I've been mildly obsessed with vial decks for a bit, and like ELD, believe that its only a matter of time till they put some kind of influence on type I.

My main problem with the card always came up when I tried to put the vial in some sort of fish esq. deck. Like JP and others mentioned, Fish managed to slow the game down, and make the opponent play on your terms. Null rod was a huge part of that.

With the addition of vial, you obliviously lose null rod. The game plan of the deck had then fundamentally changed. No longer were you trying to slow your opponent down, instead you were speeding yourself up.

But, a few months ago I hit a wall. It always came down to a problem of a fundamental turn. With fish, you could drop a rod on turn 2 with regularity, and ride its effect (along with your waste/strip/daze/spiketail) till the end of the match. Vial based decks on the other hand won't really start producing till turn 2-3 (Turn 1 vial, Turn 2:1 counter, Turn 3: two counters). Until you hit turn three, you were just a bad fish deck, and that extra needed turn generally ended up making the deck too slow.

The addition of Drain + artifact acceleration is perfect for solving this problem. You still can't really start benefiting from the vial consistently till turn 3ish, but now you have a powerful turn 2 play in drain --> turn 3 goodness. A deck not playing drain would be forced to just plan a regular threat on turn 2, and a Wretch on the board is no where near as scary as a possible wretch/drake/monkey/etc in hand with a vial in play.

Would it be fair to say that the deck's strength lies in the vial tricks, plus drain acceleration into broken? And, if that’s true, does it really matter what kind of broken you have? Could you just as easily replace the swords with Tinker/DS, and something else random, and still get a similar effect via the decks synergy with vial, creatures, and drain?

Another question I have is did you ever test waterfront bouncer in place of the old man? I don't feel comfortable with the Old Man in part because of his casting cost. I feel like you should be trying to maximize use of the vial, which to me points at 2cc creatures. Was this ever a problem for you with your casting costs of 1cc-4, 2cc-6, 3cc-3, 4cc-3. Bouncer is 2cc (making your spread more vial friendly), is semi-removal like the Old Man, and in combination with Gilded Drake, and vial, he could be a house.

=-carter
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