Military Formation Cycle

[Ephraim]

That suggestion (and, in fact, my proposed fix) both return to the idea of how grotesquely worse than Keep Watch this card would be. Yes, the argument is true that Keep Watch is a blue card, which means it should be able to draw cards better than white. Nonetheless, Keep Watch is not what I would consider to be a good card. Making cards that are worse than it, when I am trying to create something that represents respectable, white card-drawing just doesn't seem appropriate. Note my previous objections -- that the WW/2 creatures/3 cards version that I currently have is still worse than Keep Watch except in exactly one situation, in which case it is significantly better. I believe, however, that the dozens of other circumstances in which Keep Watch is better than this card vastly outweigh that one situation. That is perfect adherence to the colour pie. White is extremely good when the narrow circumstances for which it plans are realized. Blue is versatile, able to extract an advantage from any circumstances, even if it happens to lose to white in the ONE PLACE where white planned. I don't think that this applies just to blue, either. I doesn't just apply to blue, though. That, I think, should be a model of how white operates -- able to do some of the things that the other colours can, including any of those colours' signature effects, but only in one narrow situation. For example, Delta Formation can be significantly better than Symbiosis in the ONE circumstance where Delta Formation can be played. I don't see you complaining that I am intruding on green's slice of the colour pie.

[TheWellknownBrownie]

Frankly, I felt that that one card grossly violated the color wheel enough to deal with on it's own. Besides, White has a history of pumping it's creatures, so the card isn't actually out of color at all.

Your claim that White can be good at anything in very narrow circumstance just isn't backed up by reality. Name any recent cards that support such an argument. White is one of the colors least likely to get situational cards; it's way behind Blue, Black, and Green in that aspect.

[Godder]

Oblation, Reciprocate, Ritual of Restoration, just to name a few.

In any case, complaining about colour wheel violation is all well and good, but when it comes to card-drawing, there's no reason why White shouldn't get situationally powerful card-draw, any more than it gets situationally powerful removal, say. White is about forward planning, so if planning can lead to card-draw (the most likely representation of information in Magic is cards in hand), so be it. Likewise, if taxing can lead to card-draw, that could be done, too.

[TheWellknownBrownie]

Reciprocate is in Color Wheel. White loves punishing creatures for attacking. Order, Chastise, Vengeful Dreams, Wing Shards, Vengeance all paint too clear a picture of this just from recent sets to think otherwise.

Ditto to Ritual of Restoration. When the color wheel's relationship with Artifacts was examined, it was the one that had a healing aspect in relation to Artifacts. There are numerous cards in Mirrodin that regenerate or regrowth Artifacts. It's in the color's aspect to do so.

Oblation is almost a case, but keep in mind that the only thing that ever made the card good, the only use for it which ever allowed it to see tournament play, was when it was used to protect your own permanents in response to an opponent's removal spell, not for bouncing an opponent's stuff. It would be more in flavor if it said "You control", but that wouldn't really change it's effectiveness much.


There is a reason. Removal is something White is very good at, both board and targeted. R&D has made it explicitly clear that it's not remotely good at card-drawing. The argument you are using is so vague that it is nothing but remniscent of the early arguments about Blue; Oh, Blue is good at mind powers. So, it can burn peoople with it's mind. or, it can destroy lands with it's mind. Or, it can pump creatures with illusions. And lo, did the color pie shudder and break. The exact same thing applies to the forward planning argument. Oh, White is about forward planning, so it plans to counter spells. Oh, White is about forward planning, so it plans to make it's opponent discard cards. Why should White's forward-planning lead specifically to card-drawing? Why shouldn't it instead lead to those things that are within White's domain.

[Godder]

Perhaps, but it is true that White can do anything if it's related to taxing or Balance in some way, or to setting rules. Just as Winter Orb is now a White creature, Howling Mine could be a White enchantment or creature. White can also do things at the expense of life gain for the opponent, or as an answer to someone messing with its stuff.

For White cards that can draw more cards than with a cantrip, see Spiritual Focus, Armistice, Pursuit of Knowledge, Convalescent Care, Benalish Heralds (with a Blue ability, admittedly).

[Ephraim]

I don't think White Card drawing needs to suck; it just needs to suck a lot more than Blue, or Black, or Green. This doesn't fit that equation. It also needs to have a drawback that demonstrates White's weakness of fair play. To say that White can get around this because of it's cool military efficency is like arguing that Red is unpredictable so it can break it's own restrictions, or Blue is studious and can copy the tacts of others.  There's a foundation in flavor in the argument, but what it ultimately leads to is destroying the Color Pie as relating to mechanics. This is exactly what caused Blue to become overpowered in earlier days. When White's warlike aspect comes out in ways that aren't based on fairness, it's always relating to combat- winning combat, increasing combat spells, playing combat-worthy creatures. Drawing 3 cards doesn't fit into the realm.

I am returning to this earlier point you made because I failed to address it at the time.

1. This already does suck worse than blue, black, and green. It's already teetering on the edge of being strictly worse than one of the worst blue card-drawers I can think of. Its drawbacks and timing are significantly worse than low-end black card-drawing, and in the long run, this isn't going to draw half as many cards as Fecundity will. Nor is this as robust as Fecundity. This threatens to draw cards once and is pretty easy to stop. Fecundity threatens to draw cards as long as it is in play. And since it's hard to prevent an opponent from offing his own creatures if that's what he wants to do, there's no easy way to prevent Fecundity from drawing those cards.

2. No, this doesn't need a drawback that ties into white's tendency toward fair play. All it requires if a drawback that is white in flavour. Like all of the other formations, this card's weakness is that it is narrow -- and it's narrow in a way that an opponent can take advantage of. This spel, like all of the formations, automaticallyl makes any creature-kill spell an opponent is holding into a 2-for-1. The weakness this card highlights isn't white's fairness, but white's inability to adapt quickly.

3. Yes, this "destroys" the colour pie. White has previously not had anything resembling good card-drawing. I happen to think that this is a huge mistake on the part of Wizards of the Coast. It has been mentioned numerous times in the past, here in the CCF that we need to give white something resembling respectable card-drawing. This is one such attempt.

[TheWellknownBrownie]

There are these things called Artifacts. They too break the color wheel, but gently. If you want White to have good, playable card drawing that's anything besides a straight-up cantrip effect like Abeyance or Decree of Justice, put it in Artifacts. Then White can draw cards, but not better than any other color. White doesn't need good card drawing because the aggro builds can run Mask of Memory or Sword of Fire and Ice, and the control builds can run... okay, there's no really good Artifact card drawer for White in most formats, but there could be. Artifacts are the reason that Green doesn't need spells that kill creatures- they can run Duplicant or Triskelion. Black doesn't need spells that kill mass enchantments and artifacts- they can run Oblivion Stone.

[Jacob Orlove]

It's worth noting that wizards has said explicitly that the artifacts in Mirrodin are all about one degree of commonality lower than they would normally be. The commons would be uncommon in blocks like Odessey or Kamigawa, the uncommons would be rares, and the rares probably wouldn't exist.

[Ephraim]

WellknownBrownie, I hate to do this, but I am going to note your objections and proceed regardless. We've been arguing about this card for pages and we haven't really gotten anywhere. I think it's because you see card-drawing as fundamentally inappropriate for white and I see it as fundamentally necessary for white. We are not going to overcome that difference of opinion. You've made arguments that were logical progressions from your premises, but I don't believe your premises are true.

24 Hour Clock

[Anusien]

I was going to suggest that Recon Formation might ought to be "two creatures attack and are not blocked", but way it's done right now, you either send two fatties/evaders in, or you sacrifice two creatures + one card to draw 3 cards, which I think is fair.

[Matt]

Closed and added.[/color]