First Post~! and [Deck] Controlled Burn

[Morganti]

so, hi everyone, here is my first attempt at adding some of my own brand of chaos to the vintage world.

i plan on taking this to Eudemonia for giggles

feel free to comment, suguest, ect

with out further ado, Controlled Burn, and some commentary


//NAME: Controlled Burn
// Control
        3 Duress
        4 Force of Will
        4 Mana Drain
// Draw
        3 Browbeat
        3 Brainstorm
        1 Ancestral Recall
// Burn
        1 Urza's Rage
        3 Lightning Bolt
        3 Blazing Salvo
        3 Fire // Ice
// Fun Stuff
        1 Burning Wish
        1 Cunning Wish
        1 Timetwister
        1 Time Walk
        1 Breaking Point
        1 Crucible of Worlds
// Mana Base
        1 Mana Crypt
        1 Sol Ring
        2 Bloodstained Mire
        1 Strip Mine
        4 Wasteland
        2 Polluted Delta
        2 Tundra
        2 Badlands
        2 Volcanic Island
        2 Underground Sea
        2 Plateau
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Sapphire
// Sideboard
SB:  3 Jester's Cap
SB:  1 Nether Void
SB:  1 Death Wish
SB:  3 Chalice of the Void
SB:  2 Misdirection
SB:  2 Stifle
SB:  1 Brain Freeze
SB:  1 Tendrils of Agony
SB:  1 Yawgmoth's Will


So first, on the Wishboard/sideboard
Jesters Cap is fun, period, nothing like randomly removing gaes' blessing in response to oath, then force drawing eh?
Nether Void + Death Wish is my like oh hey, perfect draw for super stall~! (chaos incarnate)

Chalice for the early cgame stall, since i run stuff thats mostly 1, or 3, or more, i can safely challice for 2

Misdirection/Stifle
stops those pesky combos from messin wit me~!

Brain/Tendril's of /Will
ramdon stuff to play untill i get a more serious outlook on life

The Deck

Counter Base, is there to well be the control
Mana Drain into Urza's Rage w/ Kicker is just mean
Burn Spells

Lightning Bolt = Classic
Blazing Salvo = The New Hawtness, target a welder, draw out a counter spell, or 5 of there life...
Fire/Ice = The optional Fun, can be a pitch card, or a techtchy play

The Draw
Browbeat = Draw 3, or 5 life from them, or a couter
Brainstorm = Draw 3, put 2 down, meh, not bad
Ancestral because i can

the fun stuff is just that, fun, feel free to rip me a new one, i can take it, strong muscles...

~D~

[ELD]

Browbeat, blazing salvo and Breaking Point are all terrible cards.  

The only way I could see killing someone with burn in a control deck is by getting complete control of the game.  There were older decks that could gain control of the game and recur a single lightning bolt for the kill.  Right now, I feel there I do not feel there is a way to gain complete control of the game, without a hard lock.  Any tiny opening can be exploited by most of the top decks.  Control Slaver can resolve one key card and end the game.  Most decks run Yawgmoth's Will, and resolving it also usually ends the game.  With that in mind, it is terribly difficult to create such a huge edge that you're a lock to win the game without some Mindslaver, Stax lock or other similar effect.  Clogging your hand up with burn is not going to help stop an opposing game winning spell.

IF, as an experiment, I was challenged to create a deck that would use RED Burn for the kill I suppose I could.  I've done it in the past.  The kill in my Combo Keeper deck was burning wish for Fireball.  The mana was taken care of by the FAT combo, or GrimPower.  Probably not the direction you want though.  

If you wanted multiple kill cards, I'd try something like this.  Cunning wish for Urza's Rage.  Fire/Ice on Isocron Scepter.  Recurring Barbarian Ring with Crucible of Worlds.  These options don't clog up the main deck that much.  Isocron is probably the worst of these, but it is likely to be the most fun.  It would also allow for running Chant in the board, which will cripple many aggro and combo strategies.  

One of the many issues you'll run into with this deck, is that lack of a quality draw engine.  You can't play control if your opponent draws more cards than you.  That's all I have time for, I'm sure others will pick up my slack.  

Oh yeah, Will in the main is probably the way to go as well.  

Oh for the love of Pete, I need to stop.  The mana base.  Mana Drain costs UU.  That means you probably want everything to produce Blue mana.

I should have been sleeping like 45 minutes ago.  Good luck with the deck

[Morganti]

interesting points, but, why are Browbeat, Blazing Salvo, and Breaking Point "terrible" cards?

what makes them bad, what options would be better?

i am working on a more consistant counter base, though, the real goal is not out countering an opponent, the goal is prevent the opponent from going off, while throwing damage at his head.

the ideal for the deck, is 10-12 counters, 10-12 burn, 10-12 draw, the rest mana, and or stall pieces.

so with that in mind, is blue/red a viable solution?

since the goal for me, is not to net deck something, because my dicordian nature will not allow me to not be off center, i have to create my own brand of chaos.  so further suguestions?

~D~

[Necrologia]

interesting points, but, why are Browbeat, Blazing Salvo, and Breaking Point "terrible" cards?

They are terrible cards because it gives the opponent a choice. Your opponent will be more than willing to let you kill all creatures in play when they have none themselves, take 5 from salvo if it'll let them slaver lock you next turn, and so on.

The first thing I'd do when replacing them is shore up your 3 ofs. Brainstorm is absolutely always a 4 of, while Bolts and Fires are infintely better than Salvo.

Regarding your mana base, what's with the Tundra? Tundra taps for blue and white, and since you lack white entirely it's strictly worse than a basic island. Generally, when making a mana base in type 1, it's best to decide what your main color is first. After that make sure all your duals produce that color first. Even old school 5 color keeper lists would only run Volcanic Islands, Tundras, Underground Seas, and a lone Tropical Island as their duals. Blue was the most important color to the deck, so each land not named Wasteland could tap for U. Your mana base is all over the place, and I'm sure it's lead to an inordinant amount of mana screw.

Oh, and Sideboarded Death Wish is the most random thing I've ever seen in my entire life. When would you side it in? If it's there for the Burning Wish -> Death Wish plan just run more Cunning Wishes in the main, and a Vampiric Tutor in the side. That should give you a nice default wish target that doesn't cost you half your life.

[Morganti]

~points to the warning about his discordia in regards to death wish~

so you are saying, that if they take 5, at the end of there turn, before the slaver lock, thats a bad thing? since you just did 5 damage for 1 red mana, sounds like a fair trade to me, that starts to hurt when its turn 2 and they are at 10 life

tundras are there becasue i was working on adding in seal/kami of aincent laws and hadn't fixed it yet

the deck has gone through way more over hauls in the past 12 hours or so

on offering the choice:

if you are given the choice, on the end step of the turn you just played welder, of taking 5 damage, or losing the welder, what is your choice? you have very few counters left, as you fought for that welder, now this wrench is thrown at ya
do you take the 5, knowing you have all the lock pieces in your hand for your next turn, assuming to survive out my next turn, or do you let the wleder die, either case is good for me, since i get my untap, upkeep, draw steps next.

in a lot of ways, salvo is stronger than fire in a RDW style burn deck, you want to put as much burn at there head as you can, while at the same time, protecting yourself from wickedly ebil intentions of slaver lock ect

more random thoughts

~D~

[ELD]

if you are given the choice, on the end step of the turn you just played welder, of taking 5 damage, or losing the welder, what is your choice? you have very few counters left, as you fought for that welder, now this wrench is thrown at ya
do you take the 5, knowing you have all the lock pieces in your hand for your next turn, assuming to survive out my next turn, or do you let the wleder die, either case is good for me, since i get my untap, upkeep, draw steps next.

I generally do not fight over welders.  If I don't fight over a welder with you, then you've got a card in your deck, like salvo, that do nothing.  Can't point it at my head, can't cycle it, can't use it.  Card advantage wins in control battles.  Bad cards are essentially giving away card advantage before the game even starts.  With that said, for keeping welders off the board, nothing works better than lava dart.  

The biggest flaw with direct damage is it doesn't matter at all until the opponent is dead.  I've won so many games at 1 life it's countless.  Nearlly all of those games, I could have countered things to try and keep my life total higher.  Of course I would not, because there is just no need to.  If my opponent can't get through that last critical point of damage, I'm going to win.  

Think about it this way.  If I could start the game with 7 cards in hand, and you with 4 how low would my life need to be to make up for that.  I am certain that I could start at 11 life (3 bolts down) and still win.  The damage honestly doesn't matter until the end of the game.  

I play cards like Deep Analysis, Skeletal Scrying, Necro, Bargain, Fetches, Force of Will and countless others that do damage to my life total.  Why? Because life is resource.  It is the most abundant resource in the game, and can if it can be traded for either mana or cards, I do it in a heartbeat.  With the extra trade off, I am able to win games.

[Sytupal]

Now, how is this deck any better(depending on the metagame sometimes) than a straight monored deck.  4 maindeck forks are better than splashing blue for the draw and counter. Simply because Fork sometimes just reads :

RR

Counter Target Counterspell
or
Draw Three Cards

Along with a multitude of other good draw spells.  

Combine this with Pyrostatic pillar and solid burn spells, and you have a deck that i think is definitely better than this one.

[Necrologia]

so you are saying, that if they take 5, at the end of there turn, before the slaver lock, thats a bad thing?

Yes, it is. Lightning Bolt would have killed the welder, keeping you from getting locked. All Salvo does it make your opponent win at a few less life than they would have otherwise.

~points to the warning about his discordia in regards to death wish~

What warning? You've mentioned Death Wish once so far, and that just to say you get Nether Void with it.

Dis·cor·di·a   Audio pronunciation of "discordia" ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (d-skôrd-)
n. Roman Mythology

    The goddess of strife, identified with the Greek Eris.

I'm hardly an English major, but are you sure you're using that word properly?

[AnFgangsta]

I must agree, what was once called "counter-burn" just wont make the cut these days. I mean sure you can take it to your local tourny and maybe make final 4 or someting but in the bigger picture you wont have a tremendous amount of success. I mean not to sound rude or anything but do you honestly think that someone at Waterbury or Hadley is going to care if you draw 3 cards since you are running a limited amount of burn, of which (rage) takes a whole to be able to be used to its fullest extent.

When analysing say your control aspect, FoW, Drains, and Dures I would not help but think of Underworld Dreams. Your burn idea would be a lot more effective if combined with Dreams. Now some argue against using burn for whatever reasons but if you are fond of the idea..go for it. I would suggest bolts and psionic blasts in that case if you do decide to take the burn rout, although fire/ice is nifty also and who knows, rage may prove effective, its drain proof.

As for creature removal, Fire Covenant is a nice card, its not seen to much and its just fun, definately some unique tech.  Now on the topic of sideboard, Im not going to discuss too much, just pointing out the lack of need for sb death wish. Also the planar void count should be upped, 1 is way too low, id go atleast 3. Best of luck =)

[Morganti]

Underworld dreams might be good for more burn, since i punishes other players draws.

not getting into a fight over a welder is fine too, if i remove a combo piece, then its fine and good in my eyes.

now as to the overall counter burn not working, short of play testing the hell out of it, and taking it to get some match up analysis, i don't see it not working point blank.

i see it requiring tweeks to become a contender, especially as a rogue deck, or as something un expected.  if i build a transitional side board especially.

about urzas rage.  its drain proof, can be a place to shufle off drain mana, and is really an underused spell in my silly lil opinion.  it has been my favorite burn spell since its printing.

i have more crazy ideas, inclding a "can't be countered" deck just to see how well it would do against the rampant blue splash..

~D~

[ELD]

not getting into a fight over a welder is fine too, if i remove a combo piece, then its fine and good in my eyes.

Is this said with the opinion that losing is fine and good as well?  The goal of magic is to win.  That is all I can help anyone with.  If you want to win, you need to play with good cards.  Truthfully, if you want to win, you need to play with the best cards available.  That said, IMO you either need to have a way of locking your opponent out of the game, OR you need a way to generate card advantage and recur/have a kill mechanism without cloging up the deck with bad cards.  I can comment on your decklist when you post a new one.

[Morganti]

The goal of magic is to win.  That is all I can help anyone with.  If you want to win, you need to play with good cards.  Truthfully, if you want to win, you need to play with the best cards available.

the goal of games is to have fun, i happen to enjoy losing, becasue i am more concenred with making other people look at me funny and go "huh" and thus throwing them off there game plan

winning is only everything if your carreer is magic, or some other job based on extreem success leading to big payouts.

winning is not every aspect of fun magic for me.  Winning is the goal of every game, but the primary purpose for that game in the first place is fun, and thus, i build decks that are about fun for me, rather than winning.  i am trying to maximize my fun, rather than maximize my winnings

so yeah, i will have a new decklist for U/R soon, though it might become U/R/b for other bits of control that do damage.  untill then

~D~

[ELD]

If you want to play something that makes people look at you funny, then you don't need advise from other people.  If the goal is not to win, then the strength of your deck probably doesn't matter.  I personally would get a kick out of seeing a deck based on madness burn with bazaar/squee engine.  Perhaps even deck running sharazard.  WW for 10 damage is pretty beefy.  Either of those wouldn't be good, but it would be odd. 

[Jacob Orlove]

the goal of games is to have fun, i happen to enjoy losing, becasue i am more concenred with making other people look at me funny and go "huh" and thus throwing them off there game plan

winning is only everything if your carreer is magic, or some other job based on extreem success leading to big payouts.

winning is not every aspect of fun magic for me.  Winning is the goal of every game, but the primary purpose for that game in the first place is fun, and thus, i build decks that are about fun for me, rather than winning.  i am trying to maximize my fun, rather than maximize my winnings

so yeah, i will have a new decklist for U/R soon, though it might become U/R/b for other bits of control that do damage.  untill then

~D~

Moved to casual, because that's where this belongs.
-Jacob

Edit: locked temporarily while I figure out how to move posts with this software.

Edit2: Leviat fixed everything! Now this can go where it belongs.