Good Rhystic Cave

[asmoranomardicodais]

How about this card? I've always wanted to see a good version of Rystic Cave, so here's my take on it:

Cave of the Ur-Dragon
Tap: Play this ability as an instant. When it resolves, add one mana to your mana pool of the last color chosen.
Pay 1 life: Choose a color. Any player may play this ability.

How does everyone like that card? Is it playable? Also, what's a better name for it?


Current Wording:
Cave of the Ur-Dragon
Land

As Cave of the Ur-Dragon comes into play, choose a color.
T: Any player may pay 1 life. If they do, untap Cave of the Ur-Dragon and that player chooses a color. Otherwise, add one mana of the last color chosen to your mana pool. You can’t play this ability as another spell or ability is being played.

[rvs]

It looks cool, but I think the wording could use some cleaning up. I'm not sure how to though, so I'll leave that up to someone else.

[The Atog Lord]

This needs a clause stating what happens when no color is chosen.

[Jacob Orlove]

How about this:

Cave of the Ur-Dragon
When Cave of the Ur-Dragon comes into play, choose a color.
Pay 1 life: Change the chosen color to the color of your choice. Any player may play this ability.
Tap: Add one mana of the chosen color to your mana pool. This is not a mana ability.

Except I just realized the "play as an instant" clause doesn't work, because mana abilities don't use the stack. Hence the bizarro rules text of "this is not a mana ability".

[Nibble]

This needs a clause stating what happens when no color is chosen.

Could also be fixed by a CIP color choice, which I think is simpler to do.

It looks cool, but I think the wording could use some cleaning up. I'm not sure how to though, so I'll leave that up to someone else.

The biggest problem I see with the wording is that it wants a mana ability that can be responded to. 'Play only when you could play an instant' doesn't erase the fact that it's a mana ability and will be resolved instantly.

So, my try:

When ~this~ comes into play, choose a color.
: Add one mana of the last chosen color to your mana pool. This isn't considered a mana ability.
Pay 1 life: Choose a color. Any player may play this ability.


Edit: Jacob wins.

[Matt]

T: Choose a color. Any player may pay 1 life to choose a different color. Add one mana of the color last chosen in this way to your mana pool.

[Nova442]

Does that wording even work without a repeat this process/each player takes turns type clause?

[The Atog Lord]

I have some reservations about the "This is not a mana ability" wording. First of all, this may get very confusing to a player. Are players supposed to imply that, because it is not a mana ability, it therefore uses the stack? I can see some players scratching their heads at this. Yes, I know the Edible Lands from Mirrodin explicitly declare themselves not to be spells, but at the same time their text also says what they are -- lands.

Second, a land whose mana can be responded to has some serious weaknesses. Image that you have this as your fourth land. If you are holding a Hill Giant as your only card, and tap this for mana, I can respond by casting Orim's Chant. And you'll end up with mana burn and the creature still in your hand.

So, let me take a shot at this. This wording seems to give the card the bidding-for-life flavor, while still keeping it from using the stack.

Cave of the Ur-Dragon
When Cave of the Ur-Dragon comes into play, choose a color.
T: You and  all other players bid life. You start the bidding with a high bid of 0. In turn order, each player may top the high bid. The bidding ends when the high bid stands. Each player loses life equal to the highest bid made by that player. The player with the highest bid then chooses a color. Then add to your mana pool one mana of the last chosen color.

[Godder]

That looks way too complicated for a mana ability... How about some reminder text instead:

Cave of the Ur-Dragon

Pay 1 life: Choose a colour. Any player may play this ability.
Tap: Add one mana of the colour last chosen to your mana pool. Play this ability only any time you could play an instant.(If no colour has been chosen, Cave of the Ur-Dragon produces colourless mana.)

That said, it's lost its Rhystic Cave feeling, so maybe something else can be done.

[asmoranomardicodais]

I like Godder's suggestion, as long as it still leaves this situation open:

You have Cave and one island untapped. The opponent knows you have a counterspell in your hand. They play wrath of god, which would kill your morphling, your last chance of winning. So you tap your cave, and try to produce blue so you can play your counterspell. The opponet pays one life, changing it to green. You pay life again to get it back to blue. This continues till he has payed 4 life and you have payed three. In dismay, he lets you have your mana. You respond by tapping to play an impulse, since you were bluffing the whole time.

I just want mana wars to ensue because of the card.

[Jacob Orlove]

Godder's wording won't let that happen. You can only play the ability at instant speed, but since it's still a mana ability, they don't get priority before it resolves--so they can't change the color.

[Godder]

I don't think it's possible to word it to do that without resorting to AtogLord's wording, or something very similar. The Land still has to have its colour set at some point in time, so that could lead to an auction of sorts, but the stack makes this very hard, because you can always tap it in response if you're happy with the colour it's set to, plus the change goes in LIFO order, which means waiting for each one to resolve separately, before changing the colour again. It could lead to some interesting EOT wars, though...

[Nibble]

An idea:

: Any player may pay 1 life. If they do, that player chooses a color, and untap ~this~. Otherwise, add one mana of the last color chosen to your mana pool.

[asmoranomardicodais]

Nibble's wording is great! I like it a lot, and it seems to work. Anybody see any problems with this wording?

[Godder]

Add the text at the end of the Rhystic Cave's mana ability i.e. "You can’t play this ability as another spell or ability is being played" and you're good to go.

Cave of the Ur-Dragon
Land

As Cave of the Ur-Dragon comes into play, choose a colour.
: Any player may pay 1 life. If they do, untap Cave of the Ur-Dragon and that player chooses a color. Otherwise, add one mana of the last color chosen to your mana pool. You can’t play this ability as another spell or ability is being played.

[rvs]

Nibble's wording is great! I like it a lot, and it seems to work. Anybody see any problems with this wording?

Yes. That turns it into a good uncounterable channel.

[Nibble]

Yes. That turns it into a good uncounterable channel.

It's meant to be that if any life is payed, it untaps but no mana is produced (this is implied by the 'Otherwise'). So for each activation, you get one of two effects:

A player pays 1 life, a new color is chosen, and the land untaps, or
The controller of the land gets 1 mana, and the land remains tapped.

[asmoranomardicodais]

Ok, just need some flavor text, and it looks like the card is good to go

[asmoranomardicodais]

Ok, since no one has given me any objections, 24 hour clock!

[Matt]

This almost seems too complex to bother with.

[asmoranomardicodais]

It's not complex! It's text just boggles the mind, but the card itself is straightforward! I tap it to try and get the color I want. The opponent fights me for that color. I finally tap for blue, the color that I wanted in the first place. I think it works perfectly!

[Matt]

That's because you already know what it's supposed to do. you have to look at this with the eyes of a prerelease player who's never seen this before.

[asmoranomardicodais]

So you want me to simplify the text? I'll see what I can do.

[Matt]

Yes, that is what I would like. Right now it's very "[card]Dead Ringers[/card]".