Cerebral assasin

[crazedpenguinman]

Hey, I have been tinkering around with this deck for awhile now with some good results. However, I am having a few issues with it and the sideboard which I hope you can help me with.

Here is the list i am using.

4 Animate dead
4 Force of will
1 Mystical tutor
4 Squee goblin nabob
3 Intuition
1 Mana crypt
1 Vampiric tutor
1 Tinker
1 Ancestral recall (proxy)
1 Mox Jet (proxy)
1 Mox sapphire (proxy)
1 Mox ruby (proxy)
1 Mox pearl (proxy)
4 Goblin welder
1 Mana vault
1 Yawgmoths will
1 Sol ring
2 Triskellion
3 Sundering titan
1 Black lotus
1 Demonic tutor
2 Thirst for knowledge
1 Platinum angel
1 Possessed portal
2 ?? I am currently using slaver and pentavus, but I do not think these are optimal


4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 City of brass
4 Gemstone mine
1 Tolarian academy
1 Seat of the synod
1 Underground sea
1 Volcanic island

SB
4 Red elemental blast
3 Tormods crypt
3 Rack and ruin
1 Balance
1 Duplicant
1 Engineered explosives.
2 ??

My meta is pretty much control and aggro, not very much Oath and a bit of fish. Aggro can be a hard match up but is usually favorable, most control should be a walk in the park, titan eats unstable mana bases.

Some card choices.........
Force- Some people prefer duress, I found it to be too slow and I would use it when I'd prefer to be dropping a welder or another threat, force fits in well with the tempo.

Triskellion- I found that I would be siding this guy in 70% of matches, he rules and, with the addition of intuition, it is now easier to get him into the yard.

The duals- I found that I would do alot of damage to myself in games from the previously shivan reef and underground river, when nataz suggested putting two duals in I decided to give it ago and have not looked back.

Some cards that may go in........

Crucible/strip mine- Intuition for, makes discarding land to bazaar and wastelands much less scary.

Razorman maticore.masticore- I used a razorman in my original build, I found that he didn't work that well but was a 5/5 first striker which was good, having minimal amount of mana sources makes masticore a pain.

The extra spaces....

These would usually be power but not owning any makes that hard, if I could mise some I would.

The sideboard is a little difficult, I have balance and engineered explosive for aggro and rebs to deal with control. If I ever do some up against combo i need to get the portal turn 2-3 if not earlier.

Any help or suggestions would be appreciated.

[Lunar]

Check out the thread on www.starcitygames.com called "cerebral/dragon, is it viable?"  it has like 56 posts about card choices, and a bunch on SB choices as well (we all decided duress was much better in the deck overall though, but Force is a good option if you fear the combo machine eh)

SCG is great for articles, but telling someone to go look for a CA thread there when we have one that the deck's creator started, among others, is misguided at best. You get a verbal warning.

The thread itself gets moved to newbie.
-Jacob

[VGB]

SCG is great for articles, but telling someone to go look for a CA thread there when we have one that the deck's creator started, among others, is misguided at best. You get a verbal warning.

To be fair, that thread is in the vintage forum, and as such has limited access.

However, I am having a few issues with it and the sideboard which I hope you can help me with

Care to elaborate what issues?

Generally, Crucible/Strip is regarded as suboptimal due to the fact that it is antithetic to the deck's gameplan - it may support the ancilliary land destruction theme of Titan and provide recurring Welder fodder with Seat, but it lacks tempo.

The fact that it brings back Bazaar as well as discarded lands makes it quite potent, however, which is why it is probably best left a meta consideration - of which yours seems apt since it is heavy in control.

Razormane could be nice in a lone Titan spot for an aggro meta.

Duress really is more suitable, even disregarding the low blue count and suicidal amounts of damage this deck already does to itself.

One thing I am trying out is a Death Spark to replace a single Squee to deal with opposing Welders, and it is actually working reasonably well.

Those extra spaces could be relegated to some form of the Dragon combo, which is quite popular in CA.  I personally use Dragon+Eternal Witness.

[ctthespian]

Though not much has been said on CA of late, with multiple intuitions Dragon has become an acceptable addition to the deck.  Some use the Kumano/Hellkite route and some use Witness for the kill.  Though if witness is used animating a triskelion after it hits the yard is far more agreeable than the ancestral route.  As far as duress over FOW, FOW is a necessary evil vs. the combo matchups.  No FOW in CA is like no condom when having sex with a STD infected person.

VGB is right about COW, it's not that great for the LD aspect though a stip mine is still cool to run if you run COW.  However COW does have good synergy with bazaar and being able to replay discarded lands.  Especially since you use Gemstone mines.  And mana issues plague the deck already.  FYI I ran a custom build of CA this weekend at Waterbury and went 3-0 before losing 3 matches by round 7 the three loses can be contributed to bad mana production among other things.

-Keith

[crazedpenguinman]

I did try the draogn+witness combo, but I was unable to make it work well, that was a bad day. I have a playtesting day coming up so I will try out the draogn+witness once again.

Once again, I must stress that I like Force of will, I do not often find myself without a blue card to pitch but if I run duress it is a choice between turn 1 welder or turn 1 duress. Death spark is an idea for the sideboard.

[ctthespian]

I did try the draogn+witness combo, but I was unable to make it work well, that was a bad day. I have a playtesting day coming up so I will try out the draogn+witness once again.

Dragon and witness is simple with triskelion in the main deck. 
You basically animate dragon and mill till you hit witness and an animate. 
You then animate witness retunring animate.  Then animate dragon again.
Now with Dragon and witness animated you try to find trike switching the animate from witness to trike.
Do 3 damage to nauseum until your opponent is dead.

[urza23]

Hello all, i am the other helping hand with lunar to the thread on starcitygames so feel free to ask questions.

@ crazedpenguinman: For the 2 extra spots main board I run Duplicant for the removal element. Also I would drop the Dual lands because of the Titan but it really doesn't matter. You could replace them with the cheaper pain lands but its up to you. Also i personally like the Duress over FOW for the fact its pro active and you don't have to pitch a card (especially with your low blue count of 12 it might just be a dead card).
Also I would replace the Mystical and Vampiric tutor for 1 W.Dragon and 1 Eternal Witness. I read that people are having trouble with the combo as well, you could be forcing the combo so that it wouldn't work. Also it is a back up win condition. The Portal and Titan should be 1st priority.

Is Death Spark even necessary? I mean you do have 2 Trikes to deal with them.

[nataz]

I'm pretty sure I'd never take out mystical and vamp, especially in order to fit the dragon combo in. =(

with a bazaar, mystical and vamp are pretty good, not to mention if you are bringing in the combo, its always nice to be able to vamp for the missing piece. Also you run plenty of other juicy targets like will, tinker, balance, etc.

If you are looking to fit in the dragon combo pieces, there are much better options then taking out your two instant speed 1 mana tutors. 

deathspark was hott because it was a reusable cheaper trike. Its comparable to Control Slaver bringing in Lava Darts, in that you are not taking out the trikes, but adding another angle of attack on small critters. sometimes you just cant get that trike into play, and death spark can be your back up. Its return clause isn't that hard with some minimal forethought.

As for duress and the combo match-up

Generally the only time I'd rather have force was when playing against Meandeck SX or Belcher. Against everything else, I really liked duress better.

TPS and Deathlong, not to mention most of the control-combo decks like sensei-sensei, tog etc., were more worried about the duress because often if played first turn it would slow them down enough for you to get out a win condition. Portal, in addition to the Dragon combo is attainable by turn 2-3, and duress can often buy you that needed time.

Because TPS and Meandeth generally carry FOW and Duress (or even swarms) I preferred being pro-active rather then reactive.

Combine that with the restriction of Trini (another reason to have FOW), and the fact that when you force, not only do you lose a card, but its generally a card that makes you win (Tinker, Recall, Walk, Tutor, Intuition), I don't feel all that bad with leaving FOW out of the deck.

P.S.

If you meta game is control and aggro, and you already walk all over control...
why isn't Balance in your maindeck?

P.P.S.

Duress or FOW, combo is still a bitch, no argument from me there. Have you ever tried Chants in the board to help shore up your match?

Other then that, I used to run a bunch of chalices in the side for 0-1. Yes, I know 1 shuts down your welders, duress, and mirage tutors, BUT at the very least it can buy you some time to dig with bazaars for animates. Generally speaking vs combo I would try and pull Turn 1 Duress, Turn 2 Welder/tutor for bazaar + chalice.

[crazedpenguinman]

WEll thanks for the replies.

@Nataz- Balance = bad. My meta is 30 people 80% of which run control of some variety, Balance kills me more. Chalice seems good, except I do not own any :lol:. I lost in the finals becasue the contolr player boarded in 4 reb, reb tinker, reb force, reb ancestrall etc. So, maybe duress, IS a better card.

@Urza- The duals rock, even if 1 gets ransdomly blown, I'd dtill prefer that to being at 5 life of something at the end of every game I win.

@ctthespian I know how the combo works, however, I would only use it in a loosing situation, where it was not very good.

I could add the deathspark, it is a good choice.

[Lunar]

@jacob orlove, I hope you are nicer in person, I was hoping on meeting you when you come back out west this summer at the eudemonia tourneys.

#1 that thread in the vintage section is OLD, and OUTDATED already on the topic of cerebral assasin... I do always give team hadley the proper respect on the deck as it is the most fun I have had playing vintage in a long time.

#2 the thread on scg is NEW and RELEVANT, as opposed to the one in the "vintage" area...furthermore the accesability issues are VERY relevant as this is obviously a newer user and does not have access to posting in that thread. (It is for this reason I have never been able to post about the deck in that decks thread, and thus have moved on to a site that allows me access.  As (seemingly) one of the few players who really spends a lot of time tuning this deck (so much so that it is starting to resemble a new deck) I feel compelled to send somebody to where there is good information.

#3 I always promote TMD whenever possible due to the amount of resources it has granted me, if other users can send links to articles and threads there, then why do I get a warning?  Sheesh I even came on here today to see if I could get a PM out to any of the hadley rockstars to get input on my newest build.

#4 I guess I assumed that the poster had looked around on this site already, and had not found his questions answered, thus I pointed him elsewhere.  I also assumed that you guys were cool with scg and didnt mind such directions.  I also didnt feel like posting this ENTIRE thread on here when there is already a good one on a friendly site. But I guess I was wrong...

#5 If I get banned for the above, so be it, there are other things in life.



Now onto what I really would like to talk about (cerebral assasin)

My list from last eudemonia tourney was this... (it was 4-2-1 for matches, the draw was intential into the top 8, there is a report on starcity in the cerebral/draong is it viable thread)

Mind you this is going to be vastly different the next time, but this is for reference.\

Main Deck:
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Vault of Whispers
1 Great Furnace
1 Shivan Reef
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Duplicant
1 Tinker
1 Possesed Portal
1 Necromancy
1 Yawmoth's Will
1 Eternal Witness
1 Worldgorger Dragon
1 Platinum Angel
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Goblin Welder
2 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Animate Dead
4 Squee, Goblin Nabob
2 Triskelion
2 Sundering Titan
4 Duress
3 Intuition

Sideboard:
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Duplicant
1 Possesed Portal
3 Echoing Truth
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Ray of Revelation
2 Blue Elemental Blast

While I am not going to post a new list yet (after sunday I will) I will say that with 99.9% assurance duress is better in this deck (granted this is due largely to a number of changes to the overall deck, and a slight tinker with the mana base)

First off is the creature/win condition base

currently I think that no more than 2 sundering titans is needed (as that makes sure one hits the yard with intuition) I really favor a more utility base currently (the meta is wide open all over the place and more utility means some more favorable matchups, where the deck doesnt without them)

I ran in my last tourney (eudemonia, 5th place on west coast)

2 Titan
2 Trike
1 Duplicant
1 Platz
 
I cannot even stress how good duplicant went for me, it owns.

1 Possesed portal

two of these is not needed for all matchups, and it is the only really situational card in the deck (as you MUST have welder to get it into play over 90% of the time)

1 Worldgorger Dragon
1 Eternal Witness

This has become one of the strongest aspects of the deck.  Use JP Meyers article on star city today about interactivity, and the decks that win because of it.  Dragon gives this deck the "win this turn" aspect that he was talking about, and it won me multiple games last time around.

Death Spark is interesting, and you have a decent shot at getting a creature above it to recur, might be worth a look.

Balance -- I dont run it...However it can win you games that you have no business winning...either run it MD or not at all (ala HiVal's instructions) But it is a definate meta choice only (with the arrival of fish at the top spot this past weekend, and a sligh deck making top 16 we could see a number of aggroish decks showing their heads, so balance may be a solid choice)

THE BIG ONE---- Duress vs FoW...FoW is really only solid in the combo matchup, and then really only against super fast combo (such as belcher and ssx as mentioned before)

I originally tested (when CA was first announced) duress instead of FoW and found it to be bad...As time went on and I retested and tried some new ideas, I realized that duress was bad because of the card choices around it.  The problem with FoW in this deck is it makes you run enough blue cards for it to work, and 90% of the time it just ends up being a card you need to pitch to bazaar. 

Duress = 1 card at 1cc before you do something nasty (in a pro-active role)
FoW = 2 BLUE cards at 0cc when you OR the opponent does something. (pro-active, or re-active)

THe problem here stems from the fact that FoW is in the deck to be re-active, it is primarily there to stop the other player, NOT to allow you to win.  CA is a very pro-active deck, and duress really fits that scheme much better.  The second issue here is that the blue support cards in CA are VERY IMPORTANT CARDS TO THE DECK.  having to pitch an intuition is BAD, and is over two thirds of the time going to screw over your gameplan. 

Duress also allows you to get away from several blue cards (and this is where im a bit more controversial than others)  YOU DONT have to run thirst for knowledge in this deck.  In fact I found last tourney that over half the time I held thirst and couldnt play it because of this decks difficult (I say that with love) mana base.  I have found myself winning many many of my games with only 1 or 2 mana availible (this is done with welder and bazaar obviously) 

After this tourney I immediatly set about fixing the mana curve of the deck (this is part that I dont want to talk about too much yet, as I am sure my fellow players will be listening, and I love suprise tech)

Lower cc spells, made possible by the use of duress, rather than FoW. 

It just fits better overall (unless your in some crazy combo only meta, but then I wouldnt reccomend CA)


SOO lets see, the mana base I guess is next...the duals are okay in this deck, they dont pain you that is true, but IF you are WINNING your games then does it really matter if you are at 5 life????

I actually really really like at least one but maybe 2 more artifact lands...either furnace, vault, seat, citadel.  This makes for a FAR more consistant turn 2 or even 3, which this deck really likes to see. I use them as mox 6-8 which gives my welders targets to use earlier, more often.  This deck really is rather light on artifacts (compared to other welder decks) and you dont always have the option of welding (its unfortunate), this addition of more artifact lands can be of great use. (think about the lowering of anti-artifact hate ((except null-rod may come back more)) and the decline of wastelands lately)  There are arguments both ways, but I find them to be optimal in my area.

Crucible of Worlds....what to say about this card...I ran one last tourney and never saw it...In testing it actually won me a few games, but I dont think I will be running it in the future, it is too situational (maybe in the SB though against decks with wasteland??? I dunno)

Platinum Angel...This I actually do get to see often (as it is easier to stomach an intuition with her in it than CoW) and she wins me games every now and then (she just slows the other player down long enough to get dominant position)

SB choices as always are meta dependant and are up to you.  REB might be a really good way to go again though. (just a thought)

SLaver/Pentavus = BAD in this deck, they cost too much to be of good use and should really go to either the dragon combo OR to the utility creatures I mentioned earlier.  (this deck has mana issues and slaver needs mana to run, getting it into play isnt always the problem, its actually using it effectivly here that matters.) Slaver creates one more card in the deck that MUST HAVE welder to work right. With the amount of welder hate that exists this might be a bad idea.

[nataz]

Slaver/Pentavus = BAD in this deck

Although I'm not a huge fan of running the slaver/pent plan in the deck, I do like having a pent SB for the Stax match-up. Just thought I'd remind people that pent is hott vs. Smokestack and Tangle Wire, not to mention decent against all kinds of aggro.

Pent (without slaver) should always be a SB consideration when building the deck.

[urza23]

lunar wrote:
Crucible of Worlds....what to say about this card...I ran one last tourney and never saw it...In testing it actually won me a few games, but I don't think I will be running it in the future, it is too situational (maybe in the SB though against decks with wasteland??? I dunno)


About this, I don't think Crucible is all that necessary on the board. I have played through an opponents Crucible before and you can get by that if you keep moxen on the board. I just recently did it in a tournie. I would play a land use it let him waste it then keep doing that. Later in the match I played a Yawg Will then Tolarian Academy. Hardcast Portal, time walked. Then Hard casted a Duplucant and beats for the win.

[Lunar]

I never have had a need for pentavus in the deck, although stax is not much of an issue in my meta at this point (and even with trinisphere it wasnt really that big of a deal)

pentavus is great against stax yes, but so are a number of parts of this deck already.  Pentavus is a meta choice at best if you think that there will be a lot of stax showing up in your area, although id really just rather run rack and ruin if that was indeed the case as SB options (in basic cerebral assasin, my new idea might find a pentavus interesting though)