[Article] Set Free: Saviors in Vintage

[Vegeta2711]

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/9747.html

The SoK review, that sums it up.

[Zeylon]

Pretty good review overall.

I very much agree with you that Erayo sucks in combo (since you have to go off somewhat the turn you flip him, and waste resources, just o counter one spell the turn you do go off when FoW, or Duress or a billion other cards would give you the same effect.) X. Swarm is far better as is FoW, Duress, or just about anything else. And the Arcane Lab combo think just sucks. There are far better combos out there.

The only use for Erayo is in Gro decks, which have yet to do decent in a tournament in a long time, or a faster fish variant. But it is definately one of the funnest cards to try out though.

Like I said in this thread, http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/index.php?topic=22784.0 virtually as soon as this card was revealed oh so long ago...

That deck would have a field day with this with some modifications, I would imagine a list somewhat like here...

4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus

1-2 Umezawa's Jitte
1-2 Disrupting Shoal
2-3 Daze
2-3 Misdirection
4 Force of Will

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
4 Curiosity
4 Brainstorm

4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Flying Men
4 Meddling Mage
4 Erayo
3 Ninja of Deep Hours

Sideboard:
4 Seal of Cleansing
4 Null Rod
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Urijatwe's Jitte
1 Disenchant

I've had very little problem flipping Erayo in the build when I can get it. But even without Erayo, the deck is solid because it's very fast, draws a TON of cards, and plays a ton of countermagic that you card drawers will keep letting you draw into. But since I've had to cut key draw spells like Mask of Memory for Erayo, I think Erayo really is key to the deck.

I am considering in cutting Flying Men or something to play some dryad to make it Gro, only because I've had to cut Mask of Memory, which was a major reason I insisted on playing so many flyers in the first place.

But whether you opt to stick with a fish variant or gro, atleast there's a list now for everyone to play around with for a bit.

[VonDouche]

Great article. 

That being said, I have to try to find some way to make a Gro variant somewhat playable in my eye.

[Zeylon]

give the deck I posted a shot. It's not grow, it draws a lot more cards for one thing, but I think you'll be pleased with the results.

[Hyperion]

Please keep replies to this thread pertinent to the article, rather than hijacking it with decklists.

[E Face]

Pithing Needle is going to be inserted into my Oath deck for sure. That will give me Needles, Chalices, CoW, and 4 strip effects. The huge advantage Pithing Needle has for Oath is that it's perfect for stalling and denying your opponent for the few crucial turns it takes for your creatures to kill. Oath now has more potent weapons than before, and after losing all 3 of my matches against Fish / Standstill at Richmond. Pithing Needle set to Nevinryal's Disk would be huge in the Standstill match, and Pithing Needle also effectively shuts down manlands and LoA.

[everythingitouchdies]

Pithing needle is going to bring back gorilla shaman.

[Astro]

I see "Ideas Unbound" being restricted in September.  Sorcery or not it's seriously way way to strong in combo and could possibly find its way into a 4 card draw engine in the form of control much like Gush was to GAT a few years back.  Then there's the fact it not only draws cards, but it also puts shit in graveyard.  I see all sorts of possibilities and potential.

[Moxlotus]

Ideas costs UU, which means neither Dark Ritual nor Mana Drain can help accelerate.  Meditate is better.

[ctthespian]

The obvious downside is that the card is conditional and dependent on what the opponent casts. Casting your own spells and copying them, though a viable option, is hardly recommended. If the original spell is countered, Twincast will have nothing to copy and fizzleIf the original spell is countered, Twincast will have nothing to copy and fizzle, meanwhile copying your own broken restricted cards is overkill usually.

I don't believe that Twincast would fizzle.  Am I correct in that assumption?

[Jacob Orlove]

The obvious downside is that the card is conditional and dependent on what the opponent casts. Casting your own spells and copying them, though a viable option, is hardly recommended. If the original spell is countered, Twincast will have nothing to copy and fizzleIf the original spell is countered, Twincast will have nothing to copy and fizzle, meanwhile copying your own broken restricted cards is overkill usually.

I don't believe that Twincast would fizzle.  Am I correct in that assumption?

Countering a spell removes it from the stack, leaving Twincast without a legal target.

[Machinus]

Great article. There are two commons from this set that I really like, but they are strong enough only for other formats. Rending Vines and Murmurs from Beyond are two of the best nonartifact commons printed recently.

I see "Ideas Unbound" being restricted in September.  Sorcery or not it's seriously way way to strong in combo and could possibly find its way into a 4 card draw engine in the form of control much like Gush was to GAT a few years back.  Then there's the fact it not only draws cards, but it also puts shit in graveyard.  I see all sorts of possibilities and potential.

No. There is no potential. In fact, this card is horrible and will never be playable in Vintage.

[tito del monte]

A card that isn't mentioned in the article, but that i think might require some investigation is Murmurs from beyond. Its casting cost is certainly better than ideas unbound, its an instant, and it fills the graveyrad too. Not only that, but it "puts cards in your hand", so works fine under chains of mephistopheles - could it find its way into certain stax builds maybe? Or something abusing threshold (maybe birdsh*t - esque)? Just a couple of quick ideas - what do you all think?

[cssamerican]

Pain’s Reward is the one that interest me the most because the mechanics of the card aren’t broken, but it does allow opponents who are familiar with it to take advantage of players who aren’t. In other words, how much life is worth 4 cards? That figure will be in constant flux depending on the game state, so I can see real potential for someone who builds a deck around it having a serious advantage in the bidding war. This card could potential cause a lot of players, even good ones, to make huge play mistakes either by over bidding or under bidding.

[xrizzo]

A card that isn't mentioned in the article, but that i think might require some investigation is Murmurs from beyond. Its casting cost is certainly better than ideas unbound, its an instant, and it fills the graveyrad too. Not only that, but it "puts cards in your hand", so works fine under chains of mephistopheles - could it find its way into certain stax builds maybe? Or something abusing threshold (maybe birdsh*t - esque)? Just a couple of quick ideas - what do you all think?

Murmurs from Beyond Instant - Arcane 2U Instant
Reveal the top three cards of your library. An opponent chooses one. Put that card into your graveyard and the rest into your hand.#47/165

I have to disagree.  This card is really terrible.  It has the same casting cost at thirst for knowledge.  With thirst, you always get the best card, and lose either 1 (artifact) or 2 cards.  With Murmurs, you never get the 'best' card, but at least get to keep two.  (with thirst you often get to keep 2 anyway) 

[Superman]

I like Erayo, Soratami Ascendant.

[jcb193]

Pain’s Reward is the one that interest me the most

****Johnny Alert*****

Wouldn't it be cool to see this in a burn deck.  Damned if you do, damned if you don't.  How much burn damage can they do with 4 cards........

[VGB]

I have to disagree.  This card is really terrible.  It has the same casting cost at thirst for knowledge.  With thirst, you always get the best card, and lose either 1 (artifact) or 2 cards.  With Murmurs, you never get the 'best' card, but at least get to keep two.  (with thirst you often get to keep 2 anyway) 

Consider the following, and I will let you draw your own conclusions from there:

1) It will always provide +1 card advantage.  With Thirst, you are required to play an inordinate amount of artifacts to get the same benefit.
2) It's a variant on Fact or Fiction, and as such you must consider that it's card advantage must be weighed tactically versus card quality, and that is hard to quantify concretely via pure conjecture.
3) Again, it fits with Chains of Mephistopheles, so can provide card advantage in Chains decks.

[xrizzo]

Consider the following, and I will let you draw your own conclusions from there:

Fair enough.  I would be interested to see how it works in a deck designed around 'putting cards into hand'.  Maybe terrible will come back to be a poor choice of words.

Now that the set is official, I think it is nearing the time where we talk about these cards in decklists rather than just in hypothetical.  Pithing Needle, Ideas Unbound, Twincast, and Erayo have all been discussed to death -- I am ready to see them in action!  (and of course I would like to see Murmurs be good)

[Astro]

Ideas costs UU, which means neither Dark Ritual nor Mana Drain can help accelerate.  Meditate is better.

True, you never know though.  Could make High Tide viable...  Probably not but who knows what else it might spring up?

[JuJu]

Pithing Needle is going to any sideboard, maybe maindeck for some decks. I know I'm using it.

[Matt]

Wouldn't it be cool to see this in a burn deck.  Damned if you do, damned if you don't.  How much burn damage can they do with 4 cards........

They already made this, and it was called Browbeat, and it was horrible.