What in the hell is he thinking?

[Saucemaster]

Is Phil Jackson insane?

I mean, I grew up a Lakers fan during the Showtime era, and I still have a soft spot in my heart for the team, but from Phil Jackson's point of view, I repeat: IS HE INSANE?

Discuss.

[nataz]

but it's believed he'll be earning between $7 million and $10 million per year, which would make him the highest-paid NBA coach ever.

meh 10 million a year makes up for having to coach byrant.
Is this really that much of a shock? Jackson has been having dinners with the owners all winter long, plus the lakers had publicly announced they were only looking at a "superstar" class of coaches. This only left a few in the NBA to choose from, and most of them really dont want to leave their own teams.

[Machinus]

He should have gone to the Knicks.

[nataz]

but he wants to win...

[Saucemaster]

Is this really that much of a shock?

Yes, because:

...He wants to win....

[Komatteru]

Despite winning 9 championships, Phil Jackson isn't that great of a coach.  Let's go over this.  6 with Michael Jordan.  Winning a championship with Michael Jordan on your team is like having....wait, it's not like anything.  We're talking about MICHAEL FREAKING JORDAN here.  Then another 3 with Shaq and Kobe.  Shaq isn't necessarily great, but he's big and bowls everyone over.  So that's 9 championships Phil has won by having the best player in league history or the league's most dominant 7'1" 330 pound lug on his team.  Not impressive.

The Lakers didn't even make the playoffs this year, so they're pretty desparate.  Shows you that Shaq and not Kobe was what made that team win last year.  But Phil couldn't make adjustments against my DEEEEEETROIT Pistons and got lucky to win the one game they did.  Phil isn't going to save the Lakers, but he can't really make them much worse (maybe they'll make the playoffs next year!).

[TracerBullet]

Being the one guy from LA, I can tell you you folks are wrong.  No, he's not insane.  Yes, the Lakers can win; here's why-


The LA Lakers currently are a team of one major star who realises that to be anything special, he needs a good system, and realises that Phil Jackson offers that system.  Consider, for example, where Kobe Bryant compares to Michael Jordan in terms of their career and team.  Kobe has players around him that, I submit, have at least the potential to be the mediocre flies that surrounded Michael in the winning years, and are just missing a coach who'll give them some method of doing that (Caron Butler and Lamar Odom were abysmal compared to their career numbers and energy).  The Lakers, prior to losing their head coach last season, were in line to become the #6 team in the Western Conference playoffs.  That's with Rudy T, a career underachiever as coach.


I'll tell you, I've seen everything that Kobe has said, Phil has said, and the rest of the team has said, and all they need to become a contender is to have a goal that they can actually aspire to.  Phil gives them that goal.

Now, can they beat the Spurs?  That's another question entirely, but to say he's insane for coming back is completely and totally fallous.

[nataz]

The LA Lakers currently are a team of one major star who realises that to be anything special, he needs a good system, and realises that Phil Jackson offers that system. 

I very much agree with this statement

[kirdape3]

The Lakers don't need Shaquille O'Neal as a center, but they do need someone (Ilgauskas maybe) who can keep the team from being Kobe and barns.  Lamar Odom is pretty good at the four, but they need someone to play defense at the five against Stoudemire and Duncan and those monsters.

[Saucemaster]

The LA Lakers currently are a team of one major star who realises that to be anything special, he needs a good system, and realises that Phil Jackson offers that system.

But what they need even MORE than that are:

1) a point guard.
2) a center.
3) maybe a forward to help out Odom, too.

One great two guard does not a winning team make, EVEN in Jordan's case (see below).

In any case, is there any hard evidence that Kobe is actually willing to swallow his pride and admit he was phenomenally stupid?  I haven't been following the LA papers, but everyone in my family is a huge Lakers fan and my Dad's reaction to the Phil Jackson news was, "Great!  Now if we could just get rid of Kobe, maybe we'd have a team."  He has a lot of people left to convince in LA.

Consider, for example, where Kobe Bryant compares to Michael Jordan in terms of their career and team.  Kobe has players around him that, I submit, have at least the potential to be the mediocre flies that surrounded Michael in the winning years

"Mediocre flies"?  Scottie Pippen, anyone?

Now, can they beat the Spurs?  That's another question entirely, but to say he's insane for coming back is completely and totally fallous.

Here's what prompted my question: Phil Jackson is coming back to a franchise with a star player whose petulance and lack of vision is almost unrivaled (note the "almost": I'm looking at you, Terrell Owens...), that's way over the salary cap with little hope of rebuilding its starting lineup anytime in the next two years, on a three-year contract.  Forget the Spurs, they can't beat the Suns (Stoudemire!) or even the Sonics.  We won't mention the Timberwolves because what the hell happened to them this season, anyway?  I say good coaching might get them to the playoffs this year, but they'll be out in the first round.

On the other hand, they're paying him a LOT of money, so you're right, he's not totally crazy.

[TracerBullet]

But what they need even MORE than that are:

1) a point guard.
2) a center.
3) maybe a forward to help out Odom, too.

One great two guard does not a winning team make, EVEN in Jordan's case (see below).

Consider, for example, where Kobe Bryant compares to Michael Jordan in terms of their career and team.  Kobe has players around him that, I submit, have at least the potential to be the mediocre flies that surrounded Michael in the winning years

"Mediocre flies"?  Scottie Pippen, anyone?

I love it when people bring up the Scottie Pippen example.  You know who Scottie Pippen is?  He's Bruce Bowen, when playing with Michael Jordan.  He's a guy who could make some open shots (because a certain somebody got doubleteamed more than Nicole Richie- Ba Zing!), could dish the ball to a certain somebody to make tough shots, and was an excellent defensive player.  He couldn't create his own shots, he couldn't carry a team or even help form a team.  He was a guy who fit excellently into a system and complimented the greatest player of all time.  And I'm telling you right now- The Lakers have people who can be Scottie Pippen.  The Lakers have players who can help create offense by simply hitting shots opened up by Kobe.  The Lakers have guys who look infinitely worse than they really are because the Lakers didn't have a coach last season.  Believe me, things will be different next year.  The absymal play of the role players last year will not continue, especially when their play was so far off their career play.

[kirdape3]

The one year that Jordan retired the first time to go play baseball, Pippen was an All-NBA First Team forward who did everything and led the Bulls to the second round of playoffs.  Calling him mediocre seems well, bad.

The Lakers are going to have problems with two teams specifically in the West - the Suns and the Spurs.  The Spurs put Bowen on Bryant, Duncan on Odom and now the rest of the Lakers offense is goggles.  Does anyone think that the Lakers can outdefend the Spurs?  The Suns just turn the game into a track meet with the ability to play a halfcourt offense (tossing it to Stoudemire seems strong on the block).  Every other team the Lakers can beat regularly, but I don't think that they have the firepower to deal with those two.

[Saucemaster]

The Lakers have players who can help create offense by simply hitting shots opened up by Kobe.  The Lakers have guys who look infinitely worse than they really are because the Lakers didn't have a coach last season.  Believe me, things will be different next year.  The absymal play of the role players last year will not continue, especially when their play was so far off their career play.

Well, like I said, I've still got a soft spot for the Lakers, so I hope you're right.  But I have to agree with Rian here: Pippen was pretty awesome.  I also have to agree with Rian that the Suns and the Spurs both seem very tough for the Lakers, especially since Stoudemire is only going to get *better* and he was already nuts in the playoffs this year.  And the Spurs are... the Spurs.  And it's not even about outdefending the Spurs--the Suns/Spurs series demonstrated just how adaptable they are as a team.

Oh, and since you have easier access to local news, Pat: what's been the general Kobe reaction?  All I know is what I've heard on SportsCenter, which isn't much and so far seems significantly less than a heartwarming and apologetic "welcome home"....

Anyone offering lines on the Finals, btw?  I say Detroit has one more game in them.  Spurs in 6.

[JACO]

I love it when people bring up the Scottie Pippen example.  You know who Scottie Pippen is?  He's Bruce Bowen, when playing with Michael Jordan.  He's a guy who could make some open shots (because a certain somebody got doubleteamed more than Nicole Richie- Ba Zing!), could dish the ball to a certain somebody to make tough shots, and was an excellent defensive player.  He couldn't create his own shots, he couldn't carry a team or even help form a team.  He was a guy who fit excellently into a system and complimented the greatest player of all time.  And I'm telling you right now- The Lakers have people who can be Scottie Pippen.  The Lakers have players who can help create offense by simply hitting shots opened up by Kobe.  The Lakers have guys who look infinitely worse than they really are because the Lakers didn't have a coach last season.  Believe me, things will be different next year.  The absymal play of the role players last year will not continue, especially when their play was so far off their career play.

Slightly, off the main topic, but on Pat's topic; you are out of your fucking mind. I think part of the reason for this is because so many of you never really watch anything but your home team, and thus your knowledge is limited to what you read in newspaper or Internet headlines. Or perhaps your ass has been surgically attached to your mouth, so you can't prevent the shit from coming out of it. There is a reason Scottie Pippen was voted one of the 50 best players of all time. It wasn't because he was 'Bruce Bowen, when playing with Michael Jordan.' He could and did create his own shots, as well as shots for others, with the attention he commanded. Pippen played the 'point forward' role on the Bulls, bringing up the ball most of the time in games, because he was very athletic and a good ball-handler, partly because the playoff-era Bulls never had a real point-guard. Pippen was also a beast on the defensive end, having reeled off a string of 8 straight all-NBA Defensive First Team appearances, as well as being in the top 5 of steals nearly every year during his prime.

If you really think Scottie Pippen is garbage, please go to some basketball statistical archives and look up what Scottie Pippen meant to the Bulls in the 1994 and 1995 seasons. While Michael Jordan was out being terrible at baseball, Scottie Pippen single-handedly led the Bulls to the playoffs (3rd seed in the Eastern Conference) in 1994, and in 1995 he led the Bulls to a 5th seed, where they made it to the 2nd round both times. In both of these years he led the Bulls in every major statistical category, which is something that Michael Jordan, who most consider to be one of (if not the) best players in history, never did. And this was with a roster that was pretty thin on talent at the time. He literally dominated the 1994 NBA All-Star game (when he was rocking the shaved head and red patent leather Nikes), winning All-Star MVP honors. While that's not that big of a deal (or maybe it is for someone who you say sucks), Pippen was also 3rd in the voting for NBA MVP in 1994, and 7th in the voting for NBA MVP in 1995.

All that being said, there is no one on the Lakers roster who can be Bryant's Pippen. If anyone has a chance to do as much as Pippen did for their team, it is Lamar Odom. His ball-handling skills are very similar, so he can play the point-forward role (since their point guards are absolute garbage), and if Jackson can get him to play defense and rebound, then the Lakers have a very good chance to make the playoffs next year and maybe advance a round or two.

[Dante]

I love it when people bring up the Scottie Pippen example.  You know who Scottie Pippen is?  He's Bruce Bowen, when playing with Michael Jordan.  He's a guy who could make some open shots (because a certain somebody got doubleteamed more than Nicole Richie- Ba Zing!), could dish the ball to a certain somebody to make tough shots, and was an excellent defensive player.  He couldn't create his own shots, he couldn't carry a team or even help form a team.  He was a guy who fit excellently into a system and complimented the greatest player of all time.  And I'm telling you right now- The Lakers have people who can be Scottie Pippen.  The Lakers have players who can help create offense by simply hitting shots opened up by Kobe.  The Lakers have guys who look infinitely worse than they really are because the Lakers didn't have a coach last season.  Believe me, things will be different next year.  The absymal play of the role players last year will not continue, especially when their play was so far off their career play.

Slightly, off the main topic, but on Pat's topic; you are out of your fucking mind. I think part of the reason for this is because so many of you never really watch anything but your home team, and thus your knowledge is limited to what you read in newspaper or Internet headlines. Or perhaps your ass has been surgically attached to your mouth, so you can't prevent the shit from coming out of it. There is a reason Scottie Pippen was voted one of the 50 best players of all time. It wasn't because he was 'Bruce Bowen, when playing with Michael Jordan.' He could and did create his own shots, as well as shots for others, with the attention he commanded. Pippen played the 'point forward' role on the Bulls, bringing up the ball most of the time in games, because he was very athletic and a good ball-handler, partly because the playoff-era Bulls never had a real point-guard. Pippen was also a beast on the defensive end, having reeled off a string of 8 straight all-NBA Defensive First Team appearances, as well as being in the top 5 of steals nearly every year during his prime.

If you really think Scottie Pippen is garbage, please go to some basketball statistical archives and look up what Scottie Pippen meant to the Bulls in the 1994 and 1995 seasons. While Michael Jordan was out being terrible at baseball, Scottie Pippen single-handedly led the Bulls to the playoffs (3rd seed in the Eastern Conference) in 1994, and in 1995 he led the Bulls to a 5th seed, where they made it to the 2nd round both times. In both of these years he led the Bulls in every major statistical category, which is something that Michael Jordan, who most consider to be one of (if not the) best players in history, never did. And this was with a roster that was pretty thin on talent at the time. He literally dominated the 1994 NBA All-Star game (when he was rocking the shaved head and red patent leather Nikes), winning All-Star MVP honors. While that's not that big of a deal (or maybe it is for someone who you say sucks), Pippen was also 3rd in the voting for NBA MVP in 1994, and 7th in the voting for NBA MVP in 1995.

All that being said, there is no one on the Lakers roster who can be Bryant's Pippen. If anyone has a chance to do as much as Pippen did for their team, it is Lamar Odom. His ball-handling skills are very similar, so he can play the point-forward role (since their point guards are absolute garbage), and if Jackson can get him to play defense and rebound, then the Lakers have a very good chance to make the playoffs next year and maybe advance a round or two.

Quoted for truth.  There's a lot of people who bash Scottie for his post-Bulls teams, but let's be frank - he should have never gone to Houston.  The Houston offense consisted of "throw the ball into Barkley or Hakeem with 8 seconds left on the shot clock and everyone else stand around".

As someone who grew up in Chicago in High School during the Bulls runs, we have our TV/radio shows go over Scottie ALL the time...ugh.

Let's show Scottie's per game stats from the 2 years Jordan was out (I know Jordan came back in the last part of the 94-95 season)

93-94:   22 pts, 8.7 rebounds, 5.6 assists, and 3 steals.
94-95:   21.5 pts, 8.1 rebounds, 5.2 assists, and 3 steals.

Both years while playing 38 minutes per game and leading a team of nobodies  (+ Horace Grant for 93-94 season).

The only person (besides Dean Smith) who could consistently hold Jordan in check (offensively) was Scottie Pippen - Jordan always said the toughest games/defender he ever played/against was in practice against Scottie Pippen.

I tell you right now, the Lakers have no Scottie Pippen (at least the one from 1991 through 1997).

[Saucemaster]

This is only vaguely on-topic, but I'd just like to say that Robert Horry is the most clutch motherfucker on the planet.  I think it took a good minute for my heart to start up again after that one.  Rasheed Wallace is going to be having nightmares for weeks.

[Dante]

This is only vaguely on-topic, but I'd just like to say that Robert Horry is the most clutch motherfucker on the planet.  I think it took a good minute for my heart to start up again after that one.  Rasheed Wallace is going to be having nightmares for weeks.

As soon as Rasheed went to double team, my immediate thought was "oh my god that dumb-ass left Robert Horry open" (not that I want Detroit to win, coming from Chicago I hate the Pistons).

I also wish the commentators would get it right - it's "Big Shot Rob" not "Big Shot Bob"....

The Scottie Pippen debate above got me thinking at lunch about if I got to build a team from scratch and Robert Horry would definitely be on it.

[Saucemaster]

As soon as Rasheed went to double team, my immediate thought was "oh my god that dumb-ass left Robert Horry open" (not that I want Detroit to win, coming from Chicago I hate the Pistons).

Oh man, you could almost HEAR Larry Brown's thoughts at that moment.  "Watch the inbounder... watch the inbounder... OH. MY. GOD.  HE'S OPEN."

Anyone know if they gave Ginobli an assist for the pass?

[Dante]

As soon as Rasheed went to double team, my immediate thought was "oh my god that dumb-ass left Robert Horry open" (not that I want Detroit to win, coming from Chicago I hate the Pistons).

Oh man, you could almost HEAR Larry Brown's thoughts at that moment.  "Watch the inbounder... watch the inbounder... OH. MY. GOD.  HE'S OPEN."

Anyone know if they gave Ginobli an assist for the pass?

I can't see him not getting an assist. 

The only dumber play for detroit would have been [in a 1-point game] if the play were under the basket, they didn't guard the inbound man, and he then throws it off the defender's back and dunks it. 

Rob Horry just saved Tim Duncan's career - I mean in a close game for your "superstar" to go 1-6 from the free-throw line was abysmal AND to blow that tip-in at the end of regulation so badly, ugh.  If the Spurs don't win that game, I don't think they win both games at home and TD becomes a goat almost as bad as Nick Anderson.  I don't think he ever recovers.  You know he's gonna have a big game in Game 6 to eradicate his choke-job from the line.

My level of respect for TD dropped a lot after that game.  I love the way he plays and his attitude, but as far as I'm concerned, you can't be one of the top guys if you can't be relied upon in a close game.  TD goes through hit and miss games - some games he's 9/11 from the line, other games he's 3/11.  When you have MJ, Kobe, hell even Chauncey Billups, you know they're going to end up like 8/9 [or 20/22 if Dick Bavetta/Joey Crawford are ref'ing] from the line and not miss in the 4th quarter.

[JACO]

The Scottie Pippen debate above got me thinking at lunch about if I got to build a team from scratch and Robert Horry would definitely be on it.

If I built a team from scratch using all current NBA players (not at the peak of their career, but their 2005 level), it would look like this (along with their 2005/06 salaries, courtesy of HoopsHype):
SPG: Dwyane Wade ($3.03M)
SSG: Manu Ginobili ($7.43M)
SSF: Ron Artest ($6.50M)
SPF: Amare Stoudemire $2.59M)
SC: Kevin Garnett ($18.00M)

BPF: Robert Horry ($1.20M)
BSG: Ben Gordon ($3.61M)
BPG: Kirk Hinrich ($2.41M)
BSF: Tayshaun Prince ($1.76M)
BPG: Tony Parker ($1.54M)
BC: Ben Wallace ($6.50M)
BPF/SF: Andrei Kirilenko ($10.97M)

Total price is $65.54M, which should be well within the range of the soft salary cap now that the new NBA Collective Bargaining Agreement has raised the salary cap from 48% to 51% of 'league revenues.' This team would dominate both ends of the floor, while having good chemistry and the ability to sub in high energy guys for a spark off the bench who would know their role. Fuck LeBron and Carmelo, Dwyane Wade is the best prospect out of that draft class (even if his mom didn't spell his name right on the birth certificate).

[Saucemaster]

FFS I wouldn't want Ron Artest anywhere near the team.  Not even because of the Detroit incident--he lost me when he decided not to play in the beginning of the season to "promote his album" instead.  He's got talent (on the court, not in the studio), but as Kobe has so aptly demonstrated to us all, talent is not enough.  Honestly, how do we even know what Ron Artest's "2005 level" is?  The man barely played at all this season.

Dante, how 'bout TD now?  I was kind of inclined to agree with you after Game 5, but he showed a lot of heart in Game 7.  I'm inclined to like Duncan anyway, though, so I'm not unbiased here.

Oh, and any team I was creating would have to include AI.  The best part about having moved to Philly is that I can watch every game he plays all season if I want to.  He had a monster season this year.