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Author Topic: As a card, I don't see how Aether Vial can be justified in Fish.  (Read 6546 times)
Zeke
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« Reply #30 on: May 30, 2005, 12:37:47 pm »

A lot of people seem to be saying that both Null Rod and Vial/Chalice Fish could "abuse" Standstill the same.  And then they go and talk about how good players break standstill at EOT, to force the player to discard.

Remember that Aether Vial lets you play creatures at INSTANT SPEED.  Meaning, if the standstill get broken, instead of discarding cards, you get to play a creature that you have freshly drawn (or at worst, just have to discard less cards).

I am a big supporter of Aether Vial/Chalice fish.  I liked it the minute I saw it come out, and I was kicking myself for not thinking about it myself, seeing as how I have always been a big Fish fan.

My main question has to do with the disappearance of red.  Did Grim Lavamancer and Fire/Ice just not make the cut anymore?  I would think that Lavamancer would still be one of the best creatures that the deck could play (and infinitely better than a card like Ictian Javinaleers, or however you spell it). 
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martyr
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« Reply #31 on: June 04, 2005, 03:10:26 pm »

I'm thinking it would be a good idea to mix the power of the new Vial/Chalice build of Fish with the more newer, but still more traditional White/Blue running Meddling Mage and Weathered Wayfarer. Discussion about which version is "better" (Null Rod/Curiousity/Cloud of Faeries or Chalice/Vial/Ninja) aside, there are some significant advantages to using Vial in conjunction with Wayfarer.

#1: The early drop of Wayfarer provides disruption that is compatible with Vial: Vial allows development without significant hindering of searching out Strips.
#2: Wayfarer is (arguably, but definitely in my opinion) more powerful than Flying Men or whatever crummy 1-drop you're currently using (assuming a UW build).
#3: With Vial, you can develop your board continuously even whiile Ninjitsu'ing things all over the place, even under a Standstill...this is a little more relevant in a Wayfarer build because you can get a Strip soft lock with a Standstill out and still take advantage of it during it, whereas before you generally had to wait until they broke the Standstill to have anything more than a 1/1 in play (and for a while, it's busy taking out lands, and can't attack).
#4: Curiousity, while bitchin'-cool, is still a creature enchantment, and is certainly worth replacing. The card disadvantage is fairly costed at an extra 2 colorless mana (on average, taking in the 1 extra from Ninja of the Deep Hours and the cc on Aether Vial.

These points are all considering conflicting UW builds, not taking into consideration other colors. I'm not arguing in #2 that Wayfarer is better than Grim Lavamancer...overall, it is nowhere near as powerful.

I'm not seeing any definitive answer to the Null Rod vs. Vial conundrum, but I do see a lot of promise in the exploration of synergies between the components of Vial builds and mini-strategies that other decks are employing. Here's just a tentative, theoretical build...

4x Weathered Wayfarer
4x Meddling Mage
3-4x Ninja of the Deep Hours
3-4x ...???
2x...???
4x Aether Vial
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Force of Will
4x Standstill
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Time Walk
2x Swords to Plowshares

1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Sapphire
4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
2x Faerie Conclave
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Tundra
4x Flooded Strand
2x Island
1x Plains

I don't have a whole lot of experience with UW builds of Fish; I generally play Landstill, so I'm not really all that clear on exact card counts and, as I said earlier, this is just a theoretical build, but it seems that it can really hinder the development of another deck in the early game almost too much for it to realistically be in the game. I doubt it would have a lot of oomph if your disruption hiccoughed, though. The creatures are too small, and unless those slots go to more Swords, you're really vulnerable to just getting locked out on the ground vs. small creatures. Factories definitely help, but it just seems that if you don't take control early on you can really get bogged down in a crappy war of attrition.
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O earth, I shall befriend thee more with rain
that shall distil from these two ancient urns
than youthful April shall with all his showers.
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