How competative can Monoblue Control be nowdays?

[Zeke]

Monoblue Revisited, Mar 05
Ben Kowal

4 Ophidian
2 Vedalken Shackles

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Thirst for Knowledge
2 Powder Keg

4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Leak
2 Misdirection

4 Impulse
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby

1 Library of Alexandria
1 Strip Mine
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
10 Island


This was a decklist posted by Kowal on my thread about MonoU.  He was very adament about skipping creatures and running Shackles/Phid beatdown. 

Here are a couple of versions that I have been playing around with.

Spell Control:
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Mana Leak
1 Misdirection
3 Chalice of the Void

Board Control:
3 Back to Basics
2 Powder Keg

Win:
4 Ophidian
2 Vedalken Shackles

Draw:
3 Impulse
3 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

Mana:
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
4 Wasteland
1 Stripmine
3 Polluted Delta
10 Islands

Sideboard:
3 Seal of Removal
3 Energy Flux
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Old Man of the Sea
1 Back to Basics
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Chalice of the Void


And going with the more traditional Morphling kill...

Spell Control:
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Mana Leak
3 Chalice of the Void

Board Control:
3 Back to Basics
2 Powder Keg

Win:
4 Ophidian
2 Morphling

Draw:
4 Impulse
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Mystical Tutor

Mana:
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
4 Wasteland
1 Stripmine
3 Polluted Delta
11 Islands

Sideboard:
3 Seal of Removal
3 Energy Flux
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Old Man of the Sea
1 Back to Basics
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Chalice of the Void

(Obviously the lack of fetches are due to my personal lack of fetches, just take away islands until you have as many fetches as you wnat...)

[Marco]

Smmenen: What about Orb of Dreams in Stasis? It will allow you to pay the Stasis upkeep with Forsaken City and protect it from Wastelands. You could use Black Vise as a kill. (Too bad Black Vise is restricted. Although, if it wasn't there would be much better decks sporting 4 Black Vises.)

[Ultima]

actually, one of my guys came up with a UG Stasis idea that I thought had alot of merit.  Basically the green was there so you can play first turn root maze alleviating the land problem Steve was talking about.  Additionally, the win condition which was used was Chronotog.  Chronotog was the simplest because it meant that after he hit with stasis and root maze in play, you auto win since its no longer your turn and and they can't play reallly play any new mana from the mze, they basically deck themselves.

[DeMarki]

I think the best idea is to leave both Morphlings as a descent win condition and to add a Tinker-Platinum or Tinker-DSC, I don't know which one is better, but I would go for the Platinum Angel since it has a cc of 7, so even if I don't get the Tinker in Time it's not as hard to cast as the DSC, considering that you are wasteproof and got counters to protect the Plat. Anyway, here is the improved list of my favorite Mono blue Budget:

-14 Counters-
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Mana Leak
2 Misdirection

-12 Card Draw/Tutors-
4 Ophidian
4 Impulse
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Tinker
1 Crucible of Worlds

-3 Creatures-
2 Morphling
1 Platinum Angel

-7 Board Control-
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Powder Keg

-24 Mana/Lands-
1 Sol Ring
1 Library of ALexandria
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
12 Island

I didn't have the time to playtest it yet, I only hope that 12 Islands and 4 Fetchlands would be enough since I don't have any Moxes or Lotus. So, any more suggestions?

[warble]

You want to run Platinum because Monoblue has a LEGENDARY lack of board control.  Because you can't take out their threats, the best way to survive a quick aggro deck is to tinker up Platinum.  There's nothing worse then having tinker as your last topdeck into a DsC that does nothing.  Or even tinker into a DsC that's 1 turn too slow.  Protecting a win condition is just more fun then protecting a (albeit indestructible) clock too, I might add.

[Dante]

I think with the vast increase in the number of Fish decks, esp those with x/2+ creatures, Phids aren't going to cut it anymore because they will just be blocked.  That doesn't come from testing, just from looking at the results of the fields in the recent large tournaments....

[Revvik]

Most of them are running Aether Vial instead of Null Rod, so Powder Keg still does a lot of good.
Testing will tell, but most of Fish's threats are still in the 2cc range.

And the Null Rod versions aren't running big enough men to threaten Ophidian either way, but they can't attack into it since Phid will go through uncontested.
The matchup is trickier, but I think it still favors the MonoBlue player, especially if they can resolve a Back to Basics.

[Dralock]

I will agree that kegs are amazing, and probably should stay main. The best fish decks right now are running 8 counters tops, so setting a chalice for 1 will probably be simple for mono blue. At least it usually is for me playing WTF againsed U/R fish, slavagers and MDSX/Tendrils.

[DeMarki]

Is it a good idea to add a Tolarian Academy to this deck? The problem is that I run 8 artifacts, I don't know if that amount is sufficient to justify the Academy.

[Dzy]

I don't think you should play a Tolarian Academy because the power of this deck (if it has any  ) is the power of basic land. Even with a fully powered MUC deck, I would not play Academy, because it's wasteable, and doesnt lead into broken first turn plays, except maybe Tinker. In this deck Island > Academy, from my point of view

[Smmenen]

Give it up people.  Mono blue is not very good right now...I think I would know too.

Is back to basics good?  YES.  Back to basics is insane against Fish.  The problem is that you a) lack a good draw engine b) lack counterspell density and c) lose to welders and vials even with 4 kegs.    And Please don't play this deck without power unless you are using Nevs Disk.

You will never be able to stop early threats without the critical Mox, Land, Leak play.

[Revvik]

Even then, using Disk puts your own Phids at risk.
A cheap alternative along the same lines is probably U/W Landstill.  The meditative pace at which that deck moves along is similar to MonoBlue, it has more answers to resolved permanents in the form of multiple Disks, Swords to Plowshares, maindeck Disenchants, and a multitude of Wastelands with Crucible of Worlds.

[DeMarki]

Running 4 Chalices, 3 Kegs, 16 counters, 2 Morphling and 1 Platinum Angel is more than enough for board control. The Disks are completely unnecesary since they ruin my artifacts, which should remain in play as well as my Ophidians-Morphlings. Why would I run a Disk?

[doylehancock]

Running 4 Chalices, 3 Kegs, 16 counters, 2 Morphling and 1 Platinum Angel is more than enough for board control. The Disks are completely unnecesary since they ruin my artifacts, which should remain in play as well as my Ophidians-Morphlings. Why would I run a Disk?

because you need an answer for oath, slaver, and welders.

They play welder, you play keg, they use welder then you get to add the counter good game.

I myself agree with Steve mono-blue is dead right now.

It could come back but for now give it up.  I love mono blue but even I learned to leave it alone for a while.

[Smmenen]

Running 4 Chalices, 3 Kegs, 16 counters, 2 Morphling and 1 Platinum Angel is more than enough for board control. The Disks are completely unnecesary since they ruin my artifacts, which should remain in play as well as my Ophidians-Morphlings. Why would I run a Disk?

Becuase you have no way to cast turn one Mana Leak or Keg reliably.  That is a critical play - especially if you are on the draw. 

[DeMarki]

Becuase you have no way to cast turn one Mana Leak

Have you ever heard of Force of Will?

[Smmenen]

Demarki,

Not only have I heard of Force of Will I wrote the book on this deck in vintage:

You can read my primer from 2002 here:

http://www.themanadrain.com/monoblue.htm

and last summer for SCG:

Part One:
http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=7927

Part Two:
http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=7928

[doylehancock]

Demarki,

Not only have I heard of Force of Will I wrote the book on this deck in vintage:

You can read my primer from 2002 here:

http://www.themanadrain.com/monoblue.htm

and last summer for SCG:

Part One:
http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=7927

Part Two:
http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=7928

nice! 

Dont talk shit to the king of mono-blue, tog, and tendrils

[Smmenen]

I should qualify that although *I* can't see how mono blue is the deck to play right now, that doesn't mean other people should be trying to find configurations that work for them.

The sole point I was making to demarki is that I don't think mono blue can possibly be even an option without full power.  The deck is heavily reliant upon Moxen. 

You can't get a turn one Phid without Moxen.  You can't get turn one Back to Basics against Fish. 

One of the critical plays is turn three three counterspells with:
mox, Land, Land, Land and Leak, Counterspell and a pitch countermagic open that supports turn four Phid with multiple counterspell backup. 

You also lose the ability to Impulse on turn one frequently.  When I was playing Mono blue at Gencon, the Mox, Land play was essential. 

I think if your own testing has shown that mono blue can beat the Vial Fish lists then you should seriously consider it as an option - I just think you are making a grevious error if you think that going in without Moxen is the way to do it....

[Revvik]

Is Vial really the only card you see hassling MonoBlue?  I think there are plenty of options, and my old config running 3 Kegs and 4 Chalices could handle it pretty well.
Land, Mox is VERY important to this deck - if running Misdirection, that means the possibility of triple counterspell opening turn.

Mana Leak,
Force,
MisD.

As far as Vial goes, you could use the Land/Mox move to set a Chalice at 1, protect it with your pitch magic, and keep a Keg at 2 counters or so to handle whatever slips through.
Not saying it's a cakewalk, but I don't think that's what's killing this deck.

[DeMarki]

I'm sorry guys, I didn't mean to offend you and I'm pretty sure you know 10 times as much about Vintage as I do, but as I said before:

1) I'm a casual player
2) I live in Greece
3) I don't want to pay thousands of Dollars in order to buy Moxes-Lotus

So I'm trying to do my best to build a couple of decks in order to play some Vintage, even take my chances in competative play(in Greece) and  I've taken 2nd place for 4 times in local Vintage Tournaments in Athens the past few years.

I know I can't beat decks like Dragon, Oath, Control-Slaver, Fish etc especially if they run Power but that doesn't mean that I have to quit playing Vintage, or give up all the exciment and pleasure I have in constructing, or improving my decks cause I don't own any Power9 cards!
Now what's the pleasure in playnig Magic guys?

People always have pleasure even though they don't own Power! I think that you're missing the whole point of Magic. It's a GAME guys and people playing this game should have fun, even those who can't afford, or want, to spent thousands of Dollars just to obtain a few cards! Now what's the fun in that???

[LouGodKingofDustBunnys]

What everyone one's saying is that without land, mox first turn, mono blue gets hammered. So if you don't want to fork out the cash for power. the answer is simple. Play a different deck. Use the search function and look up R/G beatz, or food chain goblins, or there is even a mono-black build posted recently that looks interesting....all with little or no power cards, and they are competitive. Give those decks a look see, odds are you would do better in your meta with those decks then unpowered mono-blue.