A Perking Thought

[Mixing Mike]

I was wondering how you guys feel about Gifts.dec (any version) compared to good 'ol Control Slaver.  I was playing against Rich Shay yesterday at the Beanie Exchange.  I was playing my Gifts version, he was playing CS.  We split the games just as much as any CS/Gifts mirror would usually do.  However, not a single game I won was from doing anything that Slaver couldn't do.  It made me think a lot when I was driving home about what could've caused this, as I have already been thinking about which gameplan may be better.  Here's what I came up with (not saying that it's true or anything)......

Gifts is quite good.  It's a control deck that can topdeck a Gifts and win that turn nigh regardless of the gamestate.  It steals games better than just about any deck in the format, and I now that free wins will help to give you better results.  But I've noticed something about how it wins;
-> It has such a demand for mana usually meaning you'll need Time Walk to pull it off.
-> The deck loses a lot of power to a resolved Tormod's Crypt (yes, it can win through it, but it's not as easy as playing Gifts for Will-Recoup-X-X).
-> It can almost never win small, it usually does something really impressive and then Belches/swings with Colossus 2-4 times.
-> Tinker is a mere utility spell that gets you something when you're ready to win.

After a few exchanges with Shay and a long 2 hour drive on top of all the testing I've done before with CS, I came up with this
-> Tinker is a win condition in CS.
-> The deck can win big from a Yawg Will, or it can win small all the way down to hardcasting a Mindslaver.
-> The deck can run off 1UU mana for an ENTIRE game and win.

Now, I'm not saying that Gifts is bad, because when it's good, it's really good; problem is that the deck isn't always good.  Brassman told me the day before he made it public that his biggest fear was that "maybe Mindslaving your opponent might be just plain better".  Before Gifts.dec was running Mindslaver, it had a lot more problem matchups.  I'm not saying that it can't win without Mindslaver, but it did get a hell of a lot better when it was included in the Shortbus version.

I'll probably get some flames, but I just wanted to see what people are thinking out there.  It's a point of argument that hasn't come up in any of the discussions I've heard in the last month or so (or if it did, people blew me off like I was talking nonsense).  Please don't tell me how either of these two decks can't win small or big, just try to take the thought to mind.  I also ask for you to group SSB and Meandeck Gifts and your personal build together into one deck style, though I'm fully aware how different the decks are.

[Toad]

-> It has such a demand for mana usually meaning you'll need Time Walk to pull it off.

The good thing is that Time Walk is always included in the game winning setups. I've hardly lost games where I were severely mana screwed, especially since I'm running 24 permanents mana sources and the Lotus (hence, no one shot mana acceleration such as Lotus Petal or Mana Vault). Even the matchup against stuff like UGw Thresh, which runs the full set of Wastelands and Null Rod and can bring in Chalice of the Void post board, is not a bad matchup. Actually, all you need to do to win the game off a Gifts Ungiven (and by "win", I really mean "win", not "setting up inevitability"), is to ramp up to 7 mana. When you are running 4 basic lands, 4 or more fetchlands and the full set of permanent acceleration, this is usually not a problem. I tend to goldfish at most turn 4 all the time, without the help of Mana Drain.

-> The deck loses a lot of power to a resolved Tormod's Crypt (yes, it can win through it, but it's not as easy as playing Gifts for Will-Recoup-X-X).

As long as you are running Burning Wish and you know your stuff about the deck, Tormod's Crypt is never an issue. Actually, I'm really happy when people board in graveyard hate against me, because that means they are not running actual good cards over It.

-> It can almost never win small, it usually does something really impressive and then Belches/swings with Colossus 2-4 times.

There are a lot of games you can win by simply using Vampiric Tutor, Demonic Tutor or Mystical Tutor by turn 1 or 2 and go straight for Darksteel Colossus instead of trying to do fancy things with Gifts Ungiven or setting up your mid game with Ancestral Recall.

-> Tinker is a mere utility spell that gets you something when you're ready to win.

In my build, Tinker is the most important spell in the deck. It's hardly an utility spell, because getting a 11/11 body on the board even when you are in an inferior position is always a threat for the opponent. Tinker has the ability to switch games.

I won't comment the Mindslaver issue because I find this card (and Goblin Welders) totally useless in the deck

[Hi-Val]

Mike, I was doing some testing and thought that CS has basically strategy inferiority to Gifts. CS has TFK, which is a house and a half, as well as Welder, and it is incredibly smooth to play. Don't get me wrong, I think CS is a great deck and rewards the player. However, I think that it bottlenecks in ways that Gifts decks do not. CS basically needs a Welder or a Tinker to make things happen, and attacking welders is usually the way that the deck is fought against. Gifts has more freedom; if you cannot kill with a Belcher because of Null Rod, you tinker up Colossus or Pentavus or whatever and go to town. Gifts decks also run fewer functionally dead cards, making the topdecks a lot stronger.

I think both decks are damn fine but I lean towards Gifts because it has less weaknesses to hate and when it wins, it wins that turn and most soundly.

[Purple Hat]

@hi-val: Then again you also have games with Gifts where you don't have enough cards in your library to belch for the win and your opponent has a welder out.  those are losses that you wouldn't take if you were playing cs.

that said I still think that gifts lists are stronger than cs, particularly against any type of aggro.

Hale

[Toad]

@hi-val: Then again you also have games with Gifts where you don't have enough cards in your library to belch for the win and your opponent has a welder out.  those are losses that you wouldn't take if you were playing cs.

I found myself in this situation multiple times, and yet never had serious issues when facing Goblin Welder. There are two backup plans for that.

1. Get a single Phyrexian Furnace out. Since they will just get to activate Goblin Welder once before you kill them thanks to Darksteel Colossus going Hulk Smash on them, a single Furnace will be enough to fizzle the first Goblin Welder activation.

2. Cast Yawgmoth's Will. Replay all artifacts from your graveyard, cast Tinker for Darksteel Colossus. No artifact in the graveyard means no ways to get rid of the Colossus.

My decklist posted on SCG that Carl played was listing Goblin Charbelcher for these situations. And I'm not even running Goblin Charbelcher now, because It's damn useless.

[everythingitouchdies]

My decklist posted on SCG that Carl played was listing Goblin Charbelcher for these situations. And I'm not even running Goblin Charbelcher now, because It's damn useless.

I am not trying to take this post in a different direction, I have a comment on the topic, but I am leading in with this slight sidebar.

This is something we have been talking about for a few weeks in Michigan. There were 3 of 5 rounds on Saturday where I actually sided the belcher kill out. We were discussing heavily whether or not it really needs to be included at all, so its interesting to hear that you came that conclusion.

Is Slaver better? Well it is certainly different, and perhaps more resilient to different fields. Furnace is rampant, and testing ascertains that it does more damage to slaver than to gifts. I agree that Gifts takes what sometimes can feel like an excessive amount of set up, but it is always aptly rewarded. It does not have the ability to steal the game by resolving one thirst and setting up a slaver lock. But it has the ability to capitalize on mana drain better than just about any deck, and as mentioned in can go broken off a single TOPDECKED gifts. I think this is probably the most dominant reason that gifts feels stronger, as Gifts is primarily better than Thirst (in comparing engine/draw pieces.) My experience with Slaver overall may also have something to do with it, since I have played it far less, but it seems the community seems to be thinking in the same direction.

EITD

[Vegeta2711]

CS basically needs a Welder or a Tinker to make things happen

I may be mistaken here, but replace Welder with Gifts and don't you have the exact same anwser for Gifts decks?

Gifts does have more freedom, but CS also seems to be able to function on a far more limited mana base than Gifts.

Note that I actually don't like CS more than Gifts decks, but I just find some of the logic used a little too broad as you can easily apply it to both decks.

[CrazyCarl]

Ummm... I kill with Belcher A LOT.  Like, more than Colossus.  Attacking is for chumps.

[Mixing Mike]

CS basically needs a Welder or a Tinker to make things happen, and attacking welders is usually the way that the deck is fought against.

Doug, I do agree with that statement for the most part, yet not entierly.  Letting CS have an active Welder can be a dangerous thing because it will get out of hand before you know it.  However, once people started to play Welder hate, did it stop it from preforming well at events?  It may have stopped CS in your metagame, but not over here in New England.


Some people were questioning where my 'testing' came from.  My answer is that there really isn't any testing involved, it's just a question I want the community to answer.  Say in those games against Shay, if I hadn't been packing a Mindslaver then I would've lost a lot more games than I did.  This led me to think about which gameplan was better; Mindslaving or Gifting (regardless of what you use to kill them with, as most Gifts are YawgWill-Recop-X-X; where the X's are two cards that win you the game.).

[Kowal]

From what I've seen both in front of and behind control slaver, the Welders and Tinker are more like a sucker punch--  The deck can beat you without either one of them just because Thirst for Knowledge is such a retarded draw spell.

I actually hated seeing welders in quite a few matchups and boarded them out accordingly.

[Hi-Val]

CS basically needs a Welder or a Tinker to make things happen

I may be mistaken here, but replace Welder with Gifts and don't you have the exact same anwser for Gifts decks?

Gifts does have more freedom, but CS also seems to be able to function on a far more limited mana base than Gifts.

Note that I actually don't like CS more than Gifts decks, but I just find some of the logic used a little too broad as you can easily apply it to both decks.

I understand what you're saying here and I agree somewhat. I suppose it's that Gifts doesn't need to lose summoning sickness on its Welders to go crazy. Because CS uses welders a lot, fighting them can slow the deck significantly. Gifts seems to be able to change roles midgame really quickly. I get the feeling that it's more flexible, but that may be just because it has better topdecks. I'll readily admit that I haven't completely thought it through. Perhaps what I meant was that although Gifts and Welder are the chokepoints in both decks, Welders seem easier to deal with than Gifts.

[Outlaw]

Well wouldnt a perplexing idea be using 4 Welders + Gifts?  I was working on a deck that was slavery but could combo off like the other gifts.dec could and get a slaver lock when it comboed off.  The deck had the ability to play welder then thirst a slaver away at a higher % than SSB (using 4 welders and 2 slavers) or it had the ability to play the counter game then launch a torpedo gifts when the time was right.  A few times in testing the play was welder then gifts for slaver and pentavus and win off that, I believe that Gifts is such a flexible card that it can be used in shay style slavery or in the newly found gifts.dec

[Toad]

The problem with that strategy is that instead of running 4 weak creatures (Goblin Welders) and 3 dead cards (Pentavus and 2 Mindslavers) in order to set up a hard lock with Gifts Ungiven, you could as well run a single dead card (Darksteel Colossus) and simply win the game by casting Gifts Ungiven.

Also, instead of casting Gifts Ungiven for Mindslaver and Pentavus, turning a powerful tutor into an overcosted double Entomb, you could as well use Intuition for the same result, but with less mana.

My entensive testings (and the other members of Team MeanDeck and Team CAB came to the same conclusion) have shown that Goblin Welder makes the deck lose its primary focus (winning), hence makes Gifts Ungiven far weaker.

[Outlaw]

The problem with that strategy is that instead of running 4 weak creatures (Goblin Welders) and 3 dead cards (Pentavus and 2 Mindslavers) in order to set up a hard lock with Gifts Ungiven, you could as well run a single dead card (Darksteel Colossus) and simply win the game by casting Gifts Ungiven.

Also, instead of casting Gifts Ungiven for Mindslaver and Pentavus, turning a powerful tutor into an overcosted double Entomb, you could as well use Intuition for the same result, but with less mana.

My entensive testings (and the other members of Team MeanDeck and Team CAB came to the same conclusion) have shown that Goblin Welder makes the deck lose its primary focus (winning), hence makes Gifts Ungiven far weaker.

It seems that you neglect to see the logic here, the deck runs totally different from your "perfect" MeanDeck creation.  Welders are never "weak" creatures, and Pentavus and Mindslavers are hardly dead cards.  I question what would happen when the colossus is removed via welder or is sent farming, wouldnt that seal the game for you?  Also you never have to truly set up a hard lock when playing a slavery deck, this is everyones overlook, it happens sometimes but its not the game plan, slaving someone once can completely seal the deal.  I dont understand how a Welder can make a deck loose focus when using the ability of a welder is to make something expensive come into play quicker?  In response to the gifts as a double costed entomb and using intuition instead, to get gurantee getting what you want into the yard you would need 2 copies or a thirst for knowledge into the yard, while pitching 2 slavers into the yard via intuition is not the greatest idea when your opponent could remove it some way (furnace as all you meandeckers like to maindeck..) throwing one in there can allow you to have one left for whatever purpose.  It seems you forget to realize that mindslavers and pentavus can be welded in? While with your gifts deck you rely on using tinker or resolving gifts ungiven, while the deck that I am proposing is just using that as one of its many plans to victory. 

[The Atog Lord]

Also you never have to truly set up a hard lock when playing a slavery deck, this is everyones overlook, it happens sometimes but its not the game plan, slaving someone once can completely seal the deal.

This is a very important point, and one often overlooked. The hard lock with Control Slaver is something that I seldom seek out, but rather something which falls into place on its own. Control Slaver is not about establishing a lock. There are decks more efficient at setting up their combo than Control Slaver, with its unwieldly "combo" of four cards.

Rather, I think of the aim of Control Slaver as setting up one single Slaving. While there are some exceptions, most decks in the format (SSB not excluded) tend to die to being Slaved. While the game may continue after that Slaving, the card advantage granted by a Mindslaver activation is often more than the opponent can survive.

So, trying to compare which deck locks better won't really get us anywhere. Control Slaver and SSB both have their own game-ending plays. SSB ends the game by resolving Gifts with a decent amount of mana on the table. Control Slaver ends the game by activating a Mindslaver. While neither one per se is a victory, they are both reasonable enough approximations of victory that they will suit our purpose here.

Then, which deck is better? Honestly, I'm not sure. I will say, however, that I'm less thrilled with SSB now than I was at first. SSB certainly has some very interesting strengths. However, the deck needs to build a mana base, and then end the game. It is more mana-hungry than Control Slaver. While Mixing Mike reiterated what I told him Saturday, its worth repeating. Control Slaver is better than SSB at winning "small." SSB really likes to Win Big -- outside the combo of "Tinker+Prayer," it pretty much needs to go off to win. However, Control Slaver is much more comfortable with winning small.

Now, does that make CS a better deck? I'm not positive that it does. SSB has some strengths over CS, not the least of which is the ease with which Duress is added to the deck, a card very strong in today's environment. Having switched back to Control Slaver for the tourament last Satuday, I can say that Duress was a card I missed.

[Outlaw]

Now, does that make CS a better deck? I'm not positive that it does. SSB has some strengths over CS, not the least of which is the ease with which Duress is added to the deck, a card very strong in today's environment. Having switched back to Control Slaver for the tourament last Satuday, I can say that Duress was a card I missed.

Im curious Rich why you wernt able to fit in Duress?  In the current deck that I am working on I fit in Duress perfectly fine. 

[Toad]

It seems that you neglect to see the logic here, theWelders are never "weak" creatures, and Pentavus and Mindslavers are hardly dead cards.

Goblin Welders are 1/1 creatures, and 1/1 creatures are rather weak. They die to the commonly played Lava Dart. Pentavus and Mindsalver are dead card. I doubt you want to draw into Mindslaver or Pentavus unless you have Goblin Welder on the board and Thirst for Knowledge in hand.

I question what would happen when the colossus is removed via welder or is sent farming, wouldnt that seal the game for you?

Darksteel Colossus will not be Welded out unless you are a bad player. Yawgmoth's Will, Skeletal Scryings, Phyrexian Furnace and double Time Walk are good ways to prevent this from happening. I don't even sideboard Goblin Welder hate against ShortBus's build. You can totally ignore Goblin Welder while going off.
 
Darksteel Colossus hit by Swords to Plowshares? Sure, who cares? Nothing says you can't run a sideboarded win condition or a secondary maindeck win condition... I yet have to scoop to a resolved Swords to Plowshares on my Colossus. And I guess this will never happen. Note that since you are usually resolving Gifts Ungiven in order to win the game, nothing prevents you from Recoup'ing Yawgmoth's Will and raping your opponent's hand by replaying Duresses. I actually tend to LOVE when people bring in Swords to Plowshares against me. These are terrible dead cards unless I'm ready to win the game, and when I'm ready to win the game, Swords to Plowshares will hardly prevent me from doing it.

Also you never have to truly set up a hard lock when playing a slavery deck, this is everyones overlook, it happens sometimes but its not the game plan, slaving someone once can completely seal the deal.

By "hard lock" I obviously meant "A lock that would last long enough to win the game". I've been playing Control Slaver for a year and a half now, I know who the deck works...

I dont understand how a Welder can make a deck loose focus when using the ability of a welder is to make something expensive come into play quicker?

Goblin Welder makes you lose focus because Welders actually forces you to play these "something expensive" cards. Gifts Ungiven is such a powerful card that you are almost guaranteed to win the game if you resolve one. You don't need Goblin Welders to win the game after resolving a Gifts Ungiven.

While with your gifts deck you rely on using tinker or resolving gifts ungiven, while the deck that I am proposing is just using that as one of its many plans to victory. 

This is basically what I say when I say the deck loses focus. If you are aiming at winning Slaver style, you don't need to play Gifts Ungiven, as showed the strong success of both Intuition and non-Intuition Slaver builds over 2004 and 2005. If you are aiming at winning Gifts style, you don't need to play Mindslaver, Goblin Welder and Pentavus, as showed the strong success of the Germans and some MeanDeckers with CAB/MeanDeck's build.

[The Atog Lord]

Im curious Rich why you wernt able to fit in Duress?  In the current deck that I am working on I fit in Duress perfectly fine.

I have been having trouble fitting Duress into Control Slaver. I managed to get it in a year or so ago for Origins, but since then have not been able to. I tend to play a high number of expensive artifacts in my builds, so that takes up space. Further, Chalice for One is being more and more popular, so I'm not sure its worth maindeck inclusion alongside Welder at the moment. Finally, with Welder and expensive artifacts already in the deck, I'm not sure the deck has room for another card which neither digs through the deck nor provides mana. I've boarded it in the deck since Origins, but haven't found a way to add it to the main that I was happy with.

This is basically what I say when I say the deck loses focus. If you are aiming at winning Slaver style, you don't need to play Gifts Ungiven, as showed the strong success of both Intuition and non-Intuition Slaver builds over 2004 and 2005. If you are aiming at winning Gifts style, you don't need to play Mindslaver, Goblin Welder and Pentavus, as showed the strong success of the Germans and some MeanDeckers with CAB/MeanDeck's build.

The more I test, the more I come to the same conclusion. Though I'm not entirely settled on the matter just yet...

[Hi-Val]

Well wouldnt a perplexing idea be using 4 Welders + Gifts?  I was working on a deck that was slavery but could combo off like the other gifts.dec could and get a slaver lock when it comboed off.  The deck had the ability to play welder then thirst a slaver away at a higher % than SSB (using 4 welders and 2 slavers) or it had the ability to play the counter game then launch a torpedo gifts when the time was right.  A few times in testing the play was welder then gifts for slaver and pentavus and win off that, I believe that Gifts is such a flexible card that it can be used in shay style slavery or in the newly found gifts.dec

I had tested putting 2 Gifts into CS, and although I won the tournament I was playing in with the deck, I sided the Gifts out every game. Why? In CS, you want to be casting TFK far more than Gifts. Without a belcher kill or something like it, I felt that Gifts was an inferior FOF in that deck. I think that Gifts and Welder are an either/or kind of thing, unfortunately. To get both to work, you seem to give up a lot of space and flexibility in the deck.

Finally, please don't attack Toad by calling his work a "perfect Meandeck build". Here in the Meandeck labs, every one of us has a different Gifts deck-- Toad likes Furnaces, Jason has Salvagers, Steve has Intuition/AK, etc. We haven't stuck the team name on any of our decks because we haven't even settled on a build that we all like. Please leave unneccessary team hating out of this discussion.

[Machinus]

I had tested putting 2 Gifts into CS, and although I won the tournament I was playing in with the deck, I sided the Gifts out every game. Why? In CS, you want to be casting TFK far more than Gifts. Without a belcher kill or something like it, I felt that Gifts was an inferior FOF in that deck. I think that Gifts and Welder are an either/or kind of thing, unfortunately. To get both to work, you seem to give up a lot of space and flexibility in the deck.

Do you think FoF is even worth considering in the colossus deck? Isn't casting gifts itself a completely superior play? I know you cut it for a third TFK. I left it in but recently decided that was the right decision, so now im running 3 thirsts and no fof because I think gifts is just better.