3rd in nj with tog

[Lord of the Goats]

it's been a while since there's been a tourney in nj so naturally i had to go. less than 3 hour drives are tech. anyway, i played tog. here's the list:

4 brainstorm
4 accumulated knowledge
2 intuition
3 mercant scroll
4 cunning wish
4 mana drain
4 force of will
1 ancestral recall
1 time walk
1 tinker
1 fof
1 mystical tutor

1 drifting djinn- mad props to ray
1 darksteel

3 duress
1 demonic tutor
1 yawgmoth's will

5 mox
1 sol ring
1 mana crypt
1 black lotus
2 island
1 strip mine
5 fetch
4 sea
4 volcanic

sb
2 red blast
1 pyroblast
1 ebony charm
1 vamp tutor
2 rack and ruin
1 hurkles recall
1 capsize
1 lava dart
1 fire/ice
1 ghastly demise
1 diabolic edict
1 skeletal scrying
1 firestorm


i expected a field of gifts vs gifts hate thus the 3 duress and merchant scroll over deep anal. i also expected fish so the sb is filled w/ removal. the only other thing worth explaining is the drifting djinn over psychatog, and the reasoning is this; tog is a dead card and you kill with darksteel about 90% of the time. drifting djinn cycles so he's not really dead.   

anyway, any questions on the deck just ask. i may change 1-2 slots md but i was very happy with it.

on to the report... i didn't take notes and i such with names so sorry about any inaccuracies.

round 1: vs some guy on ultima's team playing a gro/gifts variant

game 1- i open with duress and see tog, fire/ice, gifts and some generic stuff. i take the gifts and then follow that up with cunning wish for reb with i want to protect my ancestral. i play the ancestral and he double forces to win the counter war. I'm fine with this since now he's used 3 fow and I've only used 1 wish (reb). i proceed in casting fof, AK for 3, 4 and will before tinkering up darksteel.

game 2- he draws more cards than i do via ancestral, regrowth-> ancestral, and i think I'm pretty much out. however i do manage to get intuition holding an AK which gets me back in the game. i proceed in topdecking lotus followed will into the win like the mizor i am.

2-0 1-0

round 2: feature match vs Ultima playing gifts/gro.

game 1- he clearly outdraws me and then wills. in response i wish for ebony charm and make it a little harder for him.... he still wins.

game 2- he outdraws me but i somehow manage to resolve will with about 2 minutes left in the round. he scooped staring at colossus, 3 counters and a time walk on the top. 

3-1 1-0-1

round 3: vs Method playing stax aka shaman0wnesyou.dec

game 1- he opens with sphere playing first and then drops shaman followed by smokestack. i think i brainstormed and cast a tutor to fetch something a couldn't cast.

game 2- i win.... his hand was something along the lines of reb, divining top, shaman and i think a smokestack. i get mana and cast things like rack and ruin. he looses.

game 3. i mulligan to 5    i think he locks me on his second turn. no good at all

4-3 1-1-1

round 4: some guy playing u/g

game 1-  i duress him and see eternal witness, brainstorm, fow and some lands. i take the brainstorm assuming he's playing an oath variant and can't put the witness back. we sit around for a few turns brainstorming and such before he plays a witness which regrows a brainstorm. then he casts forgotten ancient into my mana drain and i do silly things like draw cards and cast drifting djinn... which he has to read. it goes the distance

game 2- he ancestral, drops witness, and ancestral again. I'm holding counters but i don't care. i cast tinker with backup and win.

6-3 2-1-1

round 5: Ralph playing cerebral assassin

I've met Ralph before at waterbury where we were both playing cerebral assassin... I'm glad to see him still playing it even though it should smash my face in. luckily he's 2-2 and can't top 8 so he concedes to me because he's awesome. we play a game anyway and he smashes my face in like he's supposed to.

8-3 3-1-1

mize into top 8 in 8th place

top 8 some guy i talked to all day but forgot his name... playing worse than fish

game 1-i don't remember much here except that  i tinkered up colossus but couldn't swing because I'd die. i ended up firestorming his team when when he finally had lethal damage and swung with his factories

game 2- he may have won. i don't recall

game 2/3- i plan land, mox and pass the turn. he drops a mongrel and passes. i tinker w/ for backup. gg

10-3 4-1-1

top 4: method. stax

game 1- he keeps me off 3 mana. i loose

game 2- i open with land, mox x 2 and pass holding demonic, intuition and some other stuff.  he plays a shop and trinisphere. i demonic for strip mine to kill his shop which mana screws him for a couple turns and locks him under his own 3sphere. i tinker soon after and he can't ramp stack fast enough.

game 3- i keep a hand of 2 lands, brainstorm, mystical, wish, rack and ruin, and drain... i should have mulliganed into fow. i didn't, i never got to 2 mana. oh well.

after that method and i went to check out the other to 4 match. we saw one guy rack & ruin a factory at 2 life after combat damage was on the stack.... then the other guy fow'ed a red blast targeting Kira glass spinner.... pitching fow. method plays vs u/r fish, i play vs wtf to see who gets 3rd and the mana drain. we split since it's completely stupid to have a prize for 3rd but not 4th. then we play to see who gets the official 3rd place.

game 1- i keep a 2 mox no land hand with tinker, ancestral, and intuition playing second. i draw land on turn 2, ancestral and find no land. he wastes. i find more land and a fow. i tinker up colossus and he sneaks lethal damage through.

game 2 and 3: he plays mongrels and jitte. i play tinker but can't swing or I'll die. we both stall until i find removal for his team and swing in. in game 3 he plays standstill even though i can take out his team with colossus and still have like 5 points of life.... i explain that this is a favorable position for me because developing mana on the board benifits me a lot more than it benefits him.... and unless he draws 2 factory's he can't put anymore pressure on. he plays a skyfolk and lets me draw 3. i demise it after he pumps it with jitte, fire his mongrel and win

overall a very cool tourney

top 4 ended up being
1- stax
2- u/r fish
3- tog
4- wtf
5-8- i have no clue

props
all of my opponents
Jeremy, for going 1-4 and still having a good time... and driving
ultima's mom, for hooking us up
ultima, 'cause you've got a mom
Simon, for having a sweet accent.... oh, and running the tourney
ray, for suggesting drifting djinn
drifting djinn, for cycling
Ralph... for being cool   
oath... for not coming near me

slops
method, for not letting me cast spells
no air conditioning

[islanderboi10]

Wow, your Tog List doesn't even run tog...

[Lord of the Goats]

Wow, your Tog List doesn't even run tog...

when you kill with collosus 90% of the time tog becomes pretty dead. in addition it makes you devote a sb slot to fling... which i really hate. 

[Smmenen]

Yeah, but it's no longer "Tog."

[Dante]

Yeah, but it's no longer "Tog."

it's still Hulk though...

[Nomad]

it's been a while since there's been a tourney in nj so naturally i had to go. less than 3 hour drives are tech.

That's exactly what we thought when organising.  We were pleased enough with the turnout, and the turnout appeared pleased enough with us.  Of primary importance to Ultima was that we broke 30 so he could throw back Bob's comments of "you'll never get 30 in NJ..."

I play vs wtf to see who gets 3rd and the mana drain. we split since it's completely stupid to have a prize for 3rd but not 4th. then we play to see who gets the official 3rd place.

I had said prizes for top 8....that said, when I've put up a Mox, Library and Drain, I really can't afford to do much more.  Since you guys split and buggered off, I didn't have to part with more boosters, I suppose...

no air conditioning

Ultima assured me it was air conditioned ahead of time, and maybe we should have used the (large + cool) basement for seating too.

Let me do some more TO acknowledgement stuff.  We were going to have a Mox and maybe a Drain (with attendance) up.  But Phil mentioned on the Weds before that he had a spare library too.  A quick poll of the peeps there for $10 just the Mox or $15 with the Library and the Drain too found in favour of the latter.  Major Props to Phil for helping here.  I think I probably bought him enough beers afterwards, anyway.

John (Ultima) secured the place for us, and did a great job, and his girlfriend went to work cleaning up the place once we were done (as she always does).  He also did a much better job of remembering to bring his phone along...

My wife Harriet valiantly helped people improve their win records all day, and helped me out with the food we pushed on people.  The pizza shop next door made good stuff.

Groups came in from Stroudsburg, NYC, South Jersey and Yorktown Heights in NY.  Thanks to all who made the trip.

Minor Slops to John G, who forgot to pick up others of the Princeton Crew who neglected to call him anyway.  Can't really blame him.

We're entering discussions now as to the viability of converting the place to a gaming store.  Watch this space...

[Rapalaman1]

As an always avid workshop player, congrats to Method. Is there any chance you  could post your Stax list?

[Lord of the Goats]

Yeah, but it's no longer "Tog."

tog = hulk. and besides, i find it hard to believe that the name of the most irrelevant card in the deck would define which control archytype it belongs in. you of all people should know that steve.

@ simon, by no means were those complains directed at you. the tourney was great and i'll certianly come to the next one. as far as the prizes they were more than fair, i just thought it was odd to have a really good 3rd place prize and then such a huge drop for 4th.... i'm not saying you should have out up more prize, it was just broken down weirdly. so by supid i really meant odd. lol

[Revvik]

3rd in nj with tog

Huh?  Drifting Djinn?
Your justification for it seemed odd as well.  Something like, "I'll run a dead card in place of my Psychatog since people never kill with Psychatog anymore."

Wouldn't it have made more sense to cut it for something to further your gameplan?  I think even Morphling would have been better in that slot.

[Lord of the Goats]

3rd in nj with tog

Huh?  Drifting Djinn?
Your justification for it seemed odd as well.  Something like, "I'll run a dead card in place of my Psychatog since people never kill with Psychatog anymore."

Wouldn't it have made more sense to cut it for something to further your gameplan?  I think even Morphling would have been better in that slot.

well, drifting djinn cycles for 2 mana, so it's not dead. if it did not cycle i would not play it. the thing is that it only needs to play the role of a win condition about 10% of the time.... probably less. the est of the time you don't want it, but at the same time it's really stupid to loose 10% of your games because you didn't run a seond win condtion. i was also expecting a lot more rootwater thiefs than were actually there so in all honesty i could have not run it.


it was much better than a morphling would have been. there were multiple times where i cycled it early or mid game where it actually made a difference in addition the fact that it uses non blue mana was pretty spiffy a couple of times. in addition the ability to cycle for 2 in spite of a sphere of resistance was i nice perk when trying to find a land drop. i even cycled it early one game and then willed to get it back into play later. 

it pulled it's weight and i'm suprised that mono u control decks haven't utilized him.  smemmen ran that island cycler a while ago... i'd be interested in knowing his take on the djinn

[Ufactor]

@Alex - Props on the hometurf stompings. 

While I didn't read Steve's article (the only thing worth paying for online is porn), I can't help but think that this is just an inferior version of Meandeck Gifts.

-how is the AK engine not inferior to Gifts?

-in the same vein how does Duress not suck over Misdirection?

-Why couldn't you, hypothetically, run one Gifts in the sideboard (to Wish for) and one maindeck Recoup?

[Lord of the Goats]

@Alex - Props on the hometurf stompings. 

While I didn't read Steve's article (the only thing worth paying for online is porn), I can't help but think that this is just an inferior version of Meandeck Gifts.

-how is the AK engine not inferior to Gifts?

-in the same vein how does Duress not suck over Misdirection?

-Why couldn't you, hypothetically, run one Gifts in the sideboard (to Wish for) and one maindeck Recoup?

thanks;)

while in some ways it is similar to meandeck gifts, it is profoundly different. first is that intuition/ak is actualy faster than gifts. in my first 2 rounds i played against gifts decks that ran scroll so for all intensive purposes they were meandeck gifts(not to mention that i have tested the matchup). in the first match i was able to resolve my intuition before he could gifts and find the counter(s) to stop it. so while it may be possible that technically gifts is a better draw engine; intuition/ak is able to be executed faster which is more desireable in the machup. the second match was a draw, and while i got outdrawn the first game, the second game i came back by drawing a lot of cards... a double tutor w/ gifts would not have been enough to get me back in the game.

i'm a big fan of gifts... but i do think it suffers from a lack of real drawing. this deck does not. in additon, cunning wish serves a similar purpose as gifts in that it will tutor up tinker (vamp in the sb), or just generally gain advantage.     

i would not run recoup in this deck. i considered it because it would alow me to do nuts things with intuition as well as allow me to run gifts, and it would allow me to get back a countered/duressed will. it was awful when i drew it. it slowed me  down, and made my game vulnerable to grave hate when it didn't need to be. in addition, the only targets for recoup are scroll, tinker, will, and walk. you don't want multiples of those except walk.... which isn't amazing. also, while those are all broken they are not a crucial part of your game plan in most cases so spending time setting up a recoup play means you're not wishing or drawing cards with ak. of the cards than can be recouped the only one that matters is will... and as broken as will is, i don't need it. basically it was just easier to do silly things without recoup... and drawing recoup sucked.

duress is very good against gifts and allows you to play a more aggressive role in the matchup because you are decimating their game plan when ever you feel like it.... not when they feel like starting a counter war. in one of my games against gifts i duressed his gifts on turn 1 or 2... he never game back. duress disturbs their first few turns by taking things like brainstorm to stunt them, or gifts to make them find another copy. it also gives me knowlegde of where i need to focus my game. duress also hits things when they are not ready to protect them. mis-d only helps win the counterwar when they feel comfortable starting one. i'd rather attack them when they are not ready.  finally, i found that i could effictvly win counter wars with either with no signifigant difference... but that if loosing a counterwar misdirection did a lot more damage to me than duress... and i was a lot less likely to start a war that i couldn't win   

and i would not sb a gifts because i already have scrying which is a better mid to late a game draw spell in this deck. i also have vamp if i need a tutor. so gifts would do nothing that i don't already do.

[TD]

i dont like ur
1 drifting djinn

you say its a beater if u need it and if not u can always cycle it
i think this is the stupidest card you can possably have in this spot
i think if thats your theory than you might as well throw a w/u duel and splash for 1 decree of justice
you get the same effect but only better

i think the djinn is just a way for you to gloat that you came in 3rd with a deck that runs drifting djinn

there are plenty of better choices then the djinn and i dont know why you keep defending it

i came in 2nd and here is my list
1 fish, 2 fish, red fish, blue fish

1 strip mine
4 wasteland
2 faeries conclave
4 mishra's factory
4 volcanic island
2 island
3 flooded strand
2 polluted delta

4 grim lavamancer
4 spiketail hatchling
4 cloud of faeries

1 misdirection
3 snap
4 force of will
1 ancestral recall
1 time walk
3 daze
3 fire//ice
2 stifle

4 standstill

1 mox sapphire
3 null rod

SB
2 energy flux
3 crucible of worlds
3 spawning pit
2 red elemental blast
1 pyroblast
3 rack and ruin
1 stifle

i think i want to drop the 2 energy flux from the board
i cant get them out fast enough vs decks that it matters
perhapse 2 control magic for the workshop aggro match
but then again they cost more than flux
any sudgestions?

[iamfishman]

you say its a beater if u need it and if not u can always cycle it
i think this is the stupidest card you can possably have in this spot
i think if thats your theory than you might as well throw a w/u duel and splash for 1 decree of justice
you get the same effect but only better

You don't get the same event because you need the white to cycle it or play it.  If you don't have tundra in play, it is a dead card.  Furthermore, if you get the tundra prematurely with a fetch land, you may have it wated, and then you really have a dead card.

I'm not often able to keep a fetch land uncracked for the whole game until I need it.

[Lord of the Goats]

i dont like ur
1 drifting djinn

you say its a beater if u need it and if not u can always cycle it
i think this is the stupidest card you can possably have in this spot
i think if thats your theory than you might as well throw a w/u duel and splash for 1 decree of justice
you get the same effect but only better

i think the djinn is just a way for you to gloat that you came in 3rd with a deck that runs drifting djinn

there are plenty of better choices then the djinn and i dont know why you keep defending it

good for you. feel free to run something less "stupid" like a single u/w "duel" and decree. however, accusing me ov gloating and calling my deck stupid... in addition to attemping to hijack my thread with your list, is completely uncalled for. 

yes, decree is a much better win condition than drifting djinn.... assuming that you run enough white sources to cycle it whenever you need to. clearly i do not and running a single tundra (u/w dual) would not change that. as ray said it would be detrimental to the mana base.

gloat... wtf? over a 30 person tourney (no offense)... i don't think so; if i wanted to gloat i'd run mountian goat (and if you've seen my binder you know why). the entire point of this thread isn't that i placed well at all. the point of the thread is that tog is irrelevant because of darksteel collosus, and that the secondary win condition (usualy tog) can be more compact and less dead than in other tog lists. thus why i called the deck tog in  spite of it's lack of tog.

jp meyer messaged me yesterday with something along the lines of this:

jp: haha, people are mad that you're not running psychatog.
me: why?
jp: because they haven't realized that you kill with darksteel almost every time.

that is why i posted this.

in addition, i'm not even the person who came up with drifting djinn.... ray (post above this) who runs waterbury, made sensei, and i believe has played on the pro tour suggested it to me. as i said above, mad props to ray... it did exactly what it was supposed to do... and until they print a decent wishable win condition there isn't a better suited win condition in my colors.

[TD]

lol u got me all wrong

1st off
i wasnt making fun of ur deck i was just saying that there has to be a better card than drifting djinn
the decree of justice was just a half assed answer that came off the top of my head
my whole point is that there had to be a better answer for the spot than drifting djinn

as for jacking your thread
i put up my deck list because i am also looking for help with my deck
and because the only forum that talks about the jersey tournament only talks about the deck that came in 3rd place
 its kind of strange

i just think the metta should be talked about
like the fact that there was like 6 fish decks and like 4-5 gat/hulk decks
and 3-4 oath

i dont know what made t8 off the top of my head
i know that stacks won

and i know that if i could do it all over again i would rather run "mountian goats" in my SB over energy flux

[Revvik]

as for jacking your thread
i put up my deck list because i am also looking for help with my deck
and because the only forum that talks about the jersey tournament only talks about the deck that came in 3rd place
 its kind of strange

i just think the metta should be talked about

Regardless of how confused I am over Drifting Djinn versus Psychatog, this thread is about his decklist and tournament performance.

jp: haha, people are mad that you're not running psychatog.
me: why?
jp: because they haven't realized that you kill with darksteel almost every time.

Ok, so you kill with Colossus a lot.  What about the missed synergy of Psychatog and Cunning Wish?  Did you ever feel like "things could have gone better if I was using my Cunning Wishes to recycle answers / draw spells in my graveyard"?

[Lord of the Goats]

lol u got me all wrong

my bad then... lol. although as janky as djinn is.... it fits very well. and i'm pretty sure the reason that method (1st place) isn't posting a report is that he has some future plans with the deck so doesn't want to put the list up. 

revvik, i've been playing tog since before meandeck made it big, and in all of that time i think i only used tog to remove cards for anything other than swinging for the win once or twice. if you're trying to reslove tog rather than holding it to pitch to fow then you're generaly in a winning position as it is. besides, anything that you could wish for you could just as easily wish for vamp-> will. it's not like there's a lack of things to wish for when you don't have tog.... there's still 15 sb cards, plus anything you've removed.

oh, and it's not that i kill with darksteel a lot.... it's like practicaly every time.

[PucktheCat]

Ok, so you kill with Colossus a lot.  What about the missed synergy of Psychatog and Cunning Wish?  Did you ever feel like "things could have gone better if I was using my Cunning Wishes to recycle answers / draw spells in my graveyard"?

This is so weak.  How often does this even matter?  If you have something really strong in your graveyard (Ancestral, AK for a bunch, etc) you are almost certainly going to have enough pump for Tog to get him to lethal range with the aid of a Berserk or Fling.  Which is the better play?

In my experience the Tog/Cunning Wish synergy almost never matters in actual game situations.  At least in Type 1.

Leo

[NWI Team_Zilla]

Have you thought of something like Undead Gladiator instead of Drifting Djinn? A 3 mana 3/1 that cycles and can return from the dead.  The only thing that might make this a bad choice is the double black in the casting cost. Anyway, it's just a suggestion.

[Revvik]

Ok, so you kill with Colossus a lot.  What about the missed synergy of Psychatog and Cunning Wish?  Did you ever feel like "things could have gone better if I was using my Cunning Wishes to recycle answers / draw spells in my graveyard"?

This is so weak.  How often does this even matter?  If you have something really strong in your graveyard (Ancestral, AK for a bunch, etc) you are almost certainly going to have enough pump for Tog to get him to lethal range with the aid of a Berserk or Fling.  Which is the better play?

In my experience the Tog/Cunning Wish synergy almost never matters in actual game situations.  At least in Type 1.

Leo

I've kept up with many control decks by regrowthing my AK for 3/4 or Ancestral at instant speed to get around Mana Drains (not do-able with Yawgmoth's Will).
Even yesterday at StarCity, the number of times I used Yawgmoth's Will to reinforce the kill was far, FAR less than just holding ground and OOPS Psychatog is a 40/40 because of the tricks I can do with him.  I wished for RFG cards not quite as often as I did sieboard cards, but often enough to where it's not just a negligible "trick."  It's a nuance that can help you recover from a defensive position and push through into a win.

[Lord of the Goats]

Have you thought of something like Undead Gladiator instead of Drifting Djinn? A 3 mana 3/1 that cycles and can return from the dead.  The only thing that might make this a bad choice is the double black in the casting cost. Anyway, it's just a suggestion.

i was very tempted to run at, but the double black as well as the inability to pitch to fow, and i think it reqiires colored mana to cycle (but i'm not sure) put drifting djinn ahead.   

revvik, i find your comments very interesting as i have not had the same experience.... especially since i've been runnning tinker. i'd be interested to know how you did at chicago, and the list that you played.

[Ufactor]

@Alex - Thanks much for answering my questions.  It really seem like you have really pondered thoroughly over card selection.

one more question, though:

Why the one random strip mine?  I see it became randomly useful against AC.  Is it really worthwhile? would you use it again?  How does it compare with LoA or Boseiju, who Resolves All?

[Johnni86]

I made T8 with aggro workshop and lost to Raj (stax) the winner
I know that 1 Oath T8ed along with a Pile that resembled Meandeck Gifts from what i saw of it it was piloted by Phil who's TMD name escapes me
the 4th t8 i can't remember
me and phil went 3-o then drew into the t8
I personally lost 3 games all day, 1 to affinity which got the nut draw and 2 in the T8 the second of which was me drawing 7 mana sources in consecutive turns with a Juggy in play and Raj having an Ensnaring bridge in play with 15 life

[Lord of the Goats]

@Alex - Thanks much for answering my questions.  It really seem like you have really pondered thoroughly over card selection.

one more question, though:

Why the one random strip mine?  I see it became randomly useful against AC.  Is it really worthwhile? would you use it again?  How does it compare with LoA or Boseiju, who Resolves All?

loa, boseiju and strip mine are all similar in that they are all non blue producing lands that will win you games with their effects and will be absolute ass most of the time. to be honest i think that boseiju is the new loa.

tog plays very aggressivly espcially with the addition of tinker. in addition you want to either duress or scroll of first turn. thus you will not want to play a colorless source and you will not have 7 cards n hand: loa just doesn't get used.

boseiju is amazing against control. it's ass against aggro, it's like a free waste against fish/stax, and you're dead before it untaps against combo (as if your stuff being uncounterable would make a difference). i expected a lot of aggro control.... which i saw... so boeiju would have been pretty awful all day. oh, and like loa it interfere's with duress and scroll

strip mine is clearly the best of the 3 unless you're playing a lot of control mirrors. if you draw it in your opening hand you kill a land with basically no tempo loss... you both essentially replay your first turn; except that they have one less land than they expected. this mana screws a lot of people regardless of the deck that they are playing and is especially true of workshop decks and decks like fish that run fewer mana  sources than i do. in addition to the random mana screw factor, i gain the ability to cut colors off (i'm actually pretty sure that round 2 i cut off black mana so ultima couldn't edict me). finally the most important reason thati run strip mine is that i expected a lot of fish, fish run factory... so strip mine is creature removal in addition to the random "i win" that can be pulled off with any of the 3 colorless bastards.

given what i played against strip mine was better than either of the other 2 in every game that it came up.

i could see boseju having a slot or 2 in the sb against control but i don't think i'd run it main unless there was a lot of control.