Timetwister, the odd one

[Firefly]

I want to start a discussion about whether Timetwister (in the opinion of the majority!) belongs in the Power Nine.

This post because of an article by Mark Rosewater, in which he states:

'Timetwister – Don't get me wrong, Timetwister is a very good card. It's restricted for a reason. But one of the nine best cards of all time? I don't think so. (All the Vintage players can let me know if I'm putting my foot in my mouth. It seems the Vintage crowd really enjoys pointing out when I do this.) The best comparison I can make to Timetwister is Brahms. Yeah, he was a good composer, but he's no Bach or Beethoven. He was just lucky enough to have his name start with the letter B. Just as Timetwister is lucky to be blue.'

This got me thinking, Twister does seem the odd one out: It costs 2(U) and doesn't exclusively give advantage to the caster.

But on the other hand, it does give the caster 7 brand new cards, which might include the already cast Ancestral Recall. Or in combodecks, the stuff it needs. It can pretty much self-handedly make sure the combo gets on the table.

So, discuss: Do you think Twister should be P9, or is it the odd one?

I think it is absolutely P9

[PipOC]

P9 is an obsolete term in it's original meaning, since they are no longer the 9 most powerful cards in the game.  P9 is a holdover term form the very beginning of magic when they were the most powerful cards in the game.  Twister can't be removed from the p9 because it was one of the most powerful at the time.  Tinker, and Yawgmoths will have clearly more powerful effects than all of the P9 yet they aren't considered Power.

[Lyle H]

I gotta agree with Pip in yet another thread.  Yawgwin is the most powerful card to have seen print. Should we constantly change what power is, the power 13? The power 11?  It is power because soem of the best spells in the game came form the same set, alpha.  So it makes it sort of a package thing.  Twister stays, lke it or not.

[M]

The term "Power 9" is certainly old and outdated if you consider Timetwister.. the card doesn't come close to the other 8 in terms of power or market price. But in an environment with 5, 10, 12+ proxies the term "power" has lost most of its meaning anyway. Why even use it or bother to update it? However in a DCI sanctioned (non proxy) environment, where a distinction between powered and unpowered decks might be important now or in the future, it would make a lot of sense to adjust the definition of "power".

[balthamel]

I'd like to point out that Yawgmoth's will would not be nowhere near as good without the original Power 9, other free mana etc., while Ancestral Recall is fantastic on its own. This is why Yawgmoth's Will is not the most powerful spell ever; it relies on other cards to be useful at all.  

[Revvik]

I don't consider the phrase an antique at all.
It refers to the original 9 powerful cards from the first printed set, Alpha.  You can't really include Tinker, Will, etc. in any of those.  Especially since, as was said, they all rely on other cards to be useful (even crap like Yawgmoth's Bargain, which relies heavily on Dark Ritual or Black Lotus to have any effect on the game).

[cssamerican]

The funny thing is Balance was printed in alpha, and I think many people would argue that it is more powerful that Timetwister. But I see nothing wrong with keeping terms nostaglic. As there really isn't any reason to change them.

[Komatteru]

At the time the term "Power 9" was coined, it was probably correct.  Back then, after you got your hand ripped apart by Hymn to Tourach and whatever other discard was around, there was nothing more insulting you could do than cast Timetwister, completely restocking your hand and putting all those discarded threats back into your deck.  The fact that you could recur Timetwister with Regrowth was even more savage.  In addition, it's not an accident that all the power cards are blue.  Timetwister was a natural fit with Time Walk, Ancestral Recall, and stuff like Counterspell.  Other cards that were left out of Revised were also quite degenerate: Berserk comes to mind.

However, now, I can say that it's my least favorite Draw7 because of the reshuffling.  I much prefer Wheel of Fortune, as I want to keep a stocked graveyard for Will, esp. if I have Black Lotus around (maybe I needed it to cast the Twister).  If I have to give my opponent cards, I don't want to replenish his stock of countermagic, which I probably worked hard to get rid of.  I've lost a few games where I've Twistered into 3 Duress (most recently at Origins), whereas I had one or two in my graveyard, so Wheel wouldn't have done that to me.  However, in terms of Draw7s, I think Tinker/Memory Jar is the best.  It's the only one I'm never really hesistant to go for, while Twister and Wheel require careful thinking to determine whether this is the correct play.  Jar is objectively stronger than Twister for these reasons: 1) you can untap and get the first chance to use the cards, while after casting Jar or Wheel, you will often have to pass the turn, unless it's late in the game and you have lots of mana available. 2) if you get a bad hand, it goes away at the end of the turn, so your opponent doesn't get a chance to roll you with his savage hand because of some bad luck.  In fact, in some situations, Twister isn't even the 3rd best draw7.  With access to Academy or three lands, Time Spiral is better, but I choose to maindeck Twister instead of Spiral (which I use as a wish target when I need it).  So, if Twister is not even the best draw7, how is it Power?

It's just a name.  Designating Twister as a piece of power signifies its place in the history of the game--which is significant.  It was one of the first true chase cards, and recognized as too powerful before Wheel of Fortune was (otherwise Wheel wouldn't have made it to Revised).  Only a few cards were removed from Revised for being too powerful, such as the Power and Berserk (and at the time, Gauntlet of Might, Forcefield, Time Vault (combo with Animate Artifact and Instill Energy) and probably Sinkhole).  Many of them were removed for being too confusing, or creating too many rules problems: Chaos Orb, Word of Command, False Orders, Blaze of Glory, Camouflage, Illusionary Mask, Raging River; others were removed for being horribly out of flavor: Psionic Blast, Natural Selection, to name a few.  So, in that respect, just because it's not one of the nine most powerful cards ever printed doesn't mean it doesn't deserve its title.

[vroman]

yawg will and tinker will never be considered power bc they dont cost $200+.
as for the actual power Id list as so:
lotus
ancestral
moxen
walk
workshop (until re-restricted)
bazaar
library
twister

[Firefly]

All very good points. I would have to agree with you guys one Yawgwin being more powerful than Twister. But yes, Y. Will relies on other cards to do it's magic.

[Hi-Val]

These "Is Timetwister P9? Should there be a new P9?" threads come up every now and then. Yes, Timetwister is power 9. It stays that way too, even though some cards are worse now than they were, like Mox Pearl being worse than Mana Crypt. The term was coined at the inception of magic; cards that are better than Twister, like Balance, weren't fully abused yet. Saying that the cards are inherently powerful or stuff like that is revisionist history for naming it. They were the first really good cards. It has nothing to do with what they do on their own. If we were going back to Alpha and looking at the real power nine, it would be this:

1. Contract From Below
2. Contract From Below
3. Contract From Below
4. Contract From Below
5. Contract From Below
6. Contract From Below
7. Contract From Below
8. Contract From Below
9. Contract From Below

That said, I'm sure if you call it the P8 when writing out a decklist, nobody will question what the missing card is.

[Firefly]

@Hi-Val, so very very true.

[BigMac]

Power nine was first used when the first restricted list was published. Another thing that still warrants the name power nine is that it still is one of the nine cards that were never reprinted after unlimited and are still restricted. So basically it were the original power cards and unlimited/alpha/beta powercards that were never reprinted.

Btw, for a time there was a power 10. The library of Alexandria was the tenth card on the restricted list. Those were the first 10 cards to actually get much more expensive than the rest of the sets in that time. (yes i am that old and play magic that long) And for a time those were considered to be the most powerfull cards in magic.

Sure now there are more powerfull cards. The fact remains that those are the 9 cards of the original set that were restricted first. So to me it will always be the power nine.

[doylehancock]

I would say twister is power (it better be since I have one).  I would consider there to be a power 10, the tenth being Library.  I started play magic about the time Library was being called power.  Twister may not get as much play the other power but it is still a powerful card and it is extremely important to the history of the game we call magic.

[Draven]

I promise you, if Yawg's Will was printed in A/B/U and then out of print since then it would be a "power card" and worth the $300-400 the other power cards are going for. The reason Yawg's Will isn't uber expensive is becasue it was in a more recent set that had a huge print run vs A/B/U that had a much smaller print run and is 5+ years older.

EDIT: And yes, Timetwister is the Power 9.

[w00t3n4t0r]

Obviously to echo everything that everyone else said it is called the power 9 merely because they were the powerhouses back in the times of alpha and beta. Obviously if tinker, yawgwin, etc were printed back then they would be considered power.  However, the term is merely just held I think because everyone knows what you are talking about.  Obviously things like Mishra's Workshop, Bazaar of Baghdad, Library of Alexandria, etc would merit something closer to a modern day set of power.

[defector]

The game has moved on, but TT had its day.  Don't forget about land lotus, moxen, etc, timetwister.  The card could put you plus 3 or 4 on your opponent, from turn one on.

[normalbrains]

"I want to start a discussion about whether Timetwister (in the opinion of the majority!) belongs in the Power Nine.

This post because of an article by Mark Rosewater, in which he states:

'Timetwister – Don't get me wrong, Timetwister is a very good card. It's restricted for a reason. But one of the nine best cards of all time? I don't think so. (All the Vintage players can let me know if I'm putting my foot in my mouth. It seems the Vintage crowd really enjoys pointing out when I do this.) The best comparison I can make to Timetwister is Brahms. Yeah, he was a good composer, but he's no Bach or Beethoven. He was just lucky enough to have his name start with the letter B. Just as Timetwister is lucky to be blue.'"

im really surprised that mark rosewater said that. he should know that the name power 9 has nothing to do with the card's power level in todays game. you cant go changing the name of something beacuse its power fluctuates witht he times. should i call a gorilla shaman the new sex monkey? nobody plays uktabi orangutan anymore. he must have ran out of things to write about.

[dandan]

Contract From Below and Balance were and still are far more powerful than Timetwister but there is no way we can change the Power 9. Sol Ring and Demonic Tutor are also vastly underrated cards. IMHO, adding a Sol Ring would improve more decks that any other card (because most decks are casual and very often mana light), I'd rank it ahead of Lotus, Stripmine, Wasteland and Mishra's factory in the 'Would-improve-bad-decks' list. I think Timetwister made it into the Power 9 because its effect is huge and obvious whereas Contract was banned in all serious formats and we were all too scrubby to see how broken Balance was.

If you changed the Power 9, Mox Pearl and Mox Emerald was also have to go with YawgWill, Balance, Workshop, Mana Drain and Sol Ring fighting it out. I might be biased about Sol Ring from seeing too many decks using 4 Sol Ring back in the day.

P.S. Maro has been know to provoke, you know. He knows and he knows we know but there are a lot of people who don't know much about Vintage and we should welcome the change to discuss the format on MagictheGathering.com

[Gabethebabe]

Luckily Sol Ring was printed after UNL, otherwise it would have been P10.

But you guys are missing the real power cards in Magic.

1 = BESERK MURDOLONT
2 = BESERK MURDOLONT
3 = BESERK MURDOLONT
4 = BESERK MURDOLONT
5 = BESERK MURDOLONT
6 = BESERK MURDOLONT
7 = BESERK MURDOLONT
8 = BESERK MURDOLONT
9 = BESERK MURDOLONT

[Methuselahn]

Actually, it's "Berserk Murlodont"

"Power9" is just an archaic term invented when the card pool was tiny. 

I believe that if Wheel of Fortune was not printed in Revised, it would be Power 10.  Or damn close.

[Firefly]

@Methuselahn, but still, the cards in the P9 are some of the most powerful cards out there. They are not restricted for being too powerful in the past, they still are. Although Yawgwin and Tinker, for example, are more powerful than twister in most cases.

[Razvan]

yawg will and tinker will never be considered power bc they dont cost $200+.
workshop (until re-restricted)

Is there ANY reason why you would add the thing in the paranthesis, other than to piss people off?

Is there ANY indication that Workshop is even still viable?

[monSt4r]

I don't think yawg's will and tinker can ever made to Power or some "top cards" cause they are not self reliant...I would say that Sol Ring is closer to the power level then any other given card

[Gabethebabe]

Actually, it's "Berserk Murlodont"

Wrong.

You have´t read the obligatory TMD literature

[Firefly]

I don't think yawg's will and tinker can ever made to Power or some "top cards" cause they are not self reliant

Great point there, self reliance can be quite important. But with Tinker it's not an issue I guess, you almost always cast it with moxxen or a Crypt.

[Methuselahn]

Actually, it's "Berserk Murlodont"

Wrong.

You have´t read the obligatory TMD literature

Ooooh!  I thought you were serious. 

Firefly, I totally agree.  Reread what I posted carefully. And stress archaic.

[dandan]

I don't think yawg's will and tinker can ever made to Power or some "top cards" cause they are not self reliant...I would say that Sol Ring is closer to the power level then any other given card

A good point, YawgWill is only good in decks that play cards. I seriously believe that YawgWill is underrated as most people can't see past the fact that they win when they cast it but it also offers the option of an early use giving you a Wasteland back or some other 'ordinary' option that might swing a match.
I have to agree with you on Sol Ring - the most underrated card in Vintage (Mana Crypt is very close behind)