Help with Gifted TPS

[doylehancock]

I just threw together a gifts TPS deck last week and it turned out pretty good.  After searching for a gifts TPS deck with little luck I decided to try it out.  I played in a small tourney (17 people) and won.  I won game 2 in the finals on the first turn.  I also won a few games on turn 2.  Here is the list.

2 island
4 underground sea
5 fetch
2 volcanic
1 academy
1 mox diamond
1 mox ruby
1 mox pearl
1 mox jet (Proxy)
1 mox sapphire (Proxy)
1 lotus petal
1 black lotus (Proxy)
1 mana crypt
1 mana vault
1 sol ring
4 dark rituals
3 mana drains
4 FOW
2 gifts
1 FOF
4 brainstorm
1 ancestral recall (Proxy)
1 hurkyls recall
1 echoing truth
1 recoup
1 burning wish
1 tendrils
1 tinker
1 DSC
1 memory jar
1 will
1 bargin
1 necro
1 time twister
1 frantic search
1 demonic tutor
1 vampiric tutor
1 mystical tutor
1 minds desire

 Where I play we are only allowed 4 proxies so that is why no emerald and no walk.  Basically I wanted to build a TPS deck that used Gifts (w/recoup), rituals, and drains.  I think running a deck with drains and rituals is a hard thing to do and this is why I am asking for help.  I was wondering if any TPS players can help me with the list.  Can TPS run drains? 
I was thinking of dropping the wish for another drain, or maybe some hand control.  I would also then drop a volcanic and replace with a fetch.  Thoughts?

[Luiggi]

I think the consensus amongst TPS players is that Duress is the disruption spell of choice to accompany Force of Will, since it lets you pluck a counter from your opponent's hand before going off, and because you already have Dark Rituals for acceleration, something that makes you abuse Mana Drain much less than other decks can. I'm not saying this is a concept that won't work, but I have my doubts... Is there a reason you chose to go with Drains over Duress?

Luiggi

[rvs]

Duress can also take away other hate such as a Chalice or something when you're going first, which also makes it better than Drain. Drain forces you to play too much control, and too little combo.

[doylehancock]

I think the consensus amongst TPS players is that Duress is the disruption spell of choice to accompany Force of Will, since it lets you pluck a counter from your opponent's hand before going off, and because you already have Dark Rituals for acceleration, something that makes you abuse Mana Drain much less than other decks can. I'm not saying this is a concept that won't work, but I have my doubts... Is there a reason you chose to go with Drains over Duress?

Luiggi

I have a couple (though they might not be good ones).  I would rather couter the spell then take it from their hand.  I love duress but if they have a mage in their hand i am hurting when they say tendrils, or will, or something else good.  Granted I can find my bounce spell but that is annoying.  If I drain a mage next turn i get 2 colorless free and that will open up will, gifts, you name it.  I like drains a lot.  I tested this deck a bit with 4 drains but I liked 3 better.  I do understand that duress is cheaper to cast and can be huge against meandeck gifts but I like drains.  I would rather pay the extra blue to get mana back.  For example I won a tight game in that tourney off drain.  At EOT I tried to gifts, they of course FOW I then FOW removing brainstorm.  They again FOW!  I drained their FOW got the Will, Academy, Recoup, Lotus and went off with 5 colorless mana for free.  

I do agree their are certain advantages for Duress and certain advantages for drains.  How much testing has be done with a drain TPS decK?  I like it.  I will try the deck w/o drain and w/duress and let you know what I find.  

I like the recoup thing in TPS it makes Gifts much better in the deck.

[Luiggi]

Well, if you're up against Fish they can always Vial out their Mages, making your Drains useless to stop them... Since TPS is a deck that usually doesn't win before turn 3, Drains really aren't going to help you with that problem. Granted Duress won't, either, but you can at least try to strip their hand of some threats before you want to go off. I dunno, I agree with RVS that by running Drains over Duress you'd be playing too much control and too little combo. If I wanted to use Drains in a combo deck, it would definitely be Meandeck Gifts...

Luiggi

[doylehancock]

Well, if you're up against Fish they can always Vial out their Mages, making your Drains useless to stop them... Since TPS is a deck that usually doesn't win before turn 3, Drains really aren't going to help you with that problem. Granted Duress won't, either, but you can at least try to strip their hand of some threats before you want to go off. I dunno, I agree with RVS that by running Drains over Duress you'd be playing too much control and too little combo. If I wanted to use Drains in a combo deck, it would definitely be Meandeck Gifts...

Luiggi

I like meandeck gifts a lot but I want to run dark rits and draw7s.  I guess my TPS idea just wont work. 

[Whatever Works]

Well, if you're up against Fish they can always Vial out their Mages, making your Drains useless to stop them... Since TPS is a deck that usually doesn't win before turn 3, Drains really aren't going to help you with that problem. Granted Duress won't, either, but you can at least try to strip their hand of some threats before you want to go off. I dunno, I agree with RVS that by running Drains over Duress you'd be playing too much control and too little combo. If I wanted to use Drains in a combo deck, it would definitely be Meandeck Gifts...

Luiggi

I like meandeck gifts a lot but I want to run dark rits and draw7s.  I guess my TPS idea just wont work. 

If your going to run Gifts in TPS then you should probably cut down on the draw 7's, because gifts does the same thing, and if you check the results forum a TPS deck running 3 gifts maindeck did very well recently at a large tournement.

[doylehancock]

Well, if you're up against Fish they can always Vial out their Mages, making your Drains useless to stop them... Since TPS is a deck that usually doesn't win before turn 3, Drains really aren't going to help you with that problem. Granted Duress won't, either, but you can at least try to strip their hand of some threats before you want to go off. I dunno, I agree with RVS that by running Drains over Duress you'd be playing too much control and too little combo. If I wanted to use Drains in a combo deck, it would definitely be Meandeck Gifts...

Luiggi

I like meandeck gifts a lot but I want to run dark rits and draw7s.  I guess my TPS idea just wont work. 

If your going to run Gifts in TPS then you should probably cut down on the draw 7's, because gifts does the same thing, and if you check the results forum a TPS deck running 3 gifts maindeck did very well recently at a large tournement.

where can I get those results/decklist?

and thanks for the pointers.  which draw7s would you drop?

[Luiggi]

...and if you check the results forum a TPS deck running 3 gifts maindeck did very well recently at a large tournement.

Emphasis added, .

Luiggi

[doylehancock]

I ran this deck again in a tourney this weekend and I won.  Its a pretty good deck the only changes I made was dropping one drain for a duress and FOF for a duress.

I really think this deck can be something great.

[onelovemachine]

So you went from three drains down to two?  What benefit does mana drain give you in a ritual combo deck?  I think you are just starting to figure out how good duress is in this deck which is why you upped the count.  You need to focus on the fact that two mana drains doesn't help you control more enough that your deck is good at doing that and it doesn't help you in comboing off. 

4Force of Will
3Duress

4Brainstorm
Ancestral
Demonic
Mystical
Vamp
3Gifts
Burning Wish

Recoup
Walk
Tinker
Colossus

Necro
Bargain
Twister
Will
Spiral
Desire

Tendrils
Rebuild
Chain of Vapor/Echoing Truth

4Ritual
5mox
lotus
crypt
vault
petal
LED

Academy
5fetch
3sea
2volc
2island
1swamp

This is the last tps-red I played.  I did quite well with it although there is room for improvement now that I look at it again.  Gifts is the main focus of the deck which is why I didn't include wheel.  Wheel was boarded to wish for and bring in against decks that don't play/ play very few counterspells.  It can do the stupid timewalk tricks that the control gifts decks can and I think it has an easier time winning with tendrils. 

Lion's Eye Diamond is the nuts.

I know you only get 4 proxies so you should play all the moxes.  Recall is good but if your playing true combo you need ALL the moxes no exception.

[doylehancock]

I have 2 moxen and 1 twister.  I would rather run mox diamond then not get to run recall.

Thanks for your list.  I like drain because it nets me mana for my next turn. 

I like your list but explain LED.  Why would you want to discard your hand (unless you are doing it in response to draw7s) but thats very situational.

[onelovemachine]

Listen, I think you have a big misconception about storm combo.  Moxen are not optional.  Recall is moreso than moxes.  The only card more important than moxen is lotus.  I am quite sure any combo player will agree with me.  Also, drain cannot net you as much mana as the producers you already have and it certainly doesn't up storm count.  LED is insane.

Gifts for LED, Lotus, recoup, will..... there are dozens of situations where LED is so synergistic with the cards in the deck is it absurd.

[Komatteru]

Listen, I think you have a big misconception about storm combo.  Moxen are not optional.  Recall is moreso than moxes.  The only card more important than moxen is lotus.  I am quite sure any combo player will agree with me.  Also, drain cannot net you as much mana as the producers you already have and it certainly doesn't up storm count.  LED is insane.

Gifts for LED, Lotus, recoup, will..... there are dozens of situations where LED is so synergistic with the cards in the deck is it absurd.

Black Lotus is especially not optional.  I am a firm believer that combo is not possible without Black Lotus, and if you don't put Lotus in there, you're just going to lose over and over again.  In fact, I think that storm combo wouldn't even be feasible without the existence of Black Lotus.  I tutor for it in nearly all my games, and the way combo plays out is generally "Find Black Lotus, then figure out what to do with it."

You cannot play combo if you cannot put all the power in it.  This is not something you can argue with.  It's just not going to work.  You can probably get away with 4 Moxes (missing one of not Sapphire or Jet) as long as you have everything else, and sub in like ESG or something (or a fake mox if you aren't already playing those), but that's not what you want to be going, and it will cost you a couple games here and there (usually in the form of a mulligan).  Like, to say that Recall is more important than the moxes implies that it is possible to live without one of them, which it is not.  You will not win games that you don't get sufficient acceleration in, and you will not win games where you don't get enough threats.  Ancestral is one of the strongest threats in your deck, since it is very easy to cast it and Duress on the same turn without anything else, really.  I don't really know what else to tell you.

Also, if you want to play Mana Drain, then play Meandeck Gifts.  If you want to play TPS, then play TPS.  TPS has Dark Rituals in it, and all the normal combo cards.  Meandeck Gifts has Mana Drain, and cards that you might expect to see in Mana Drain decks (and a lot of combo cards as well, just not ones you're used to).  Pick one.  Don't mesh the two.