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Author Topic: UR Vial Fish  (Read 2504 times)
Vegeta2711
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« on: August 12, 2005, 07:06:41 pm »

After playing with multiple Fish builds for a long time, I've been kicking around a classic UR version that replaced Null Rod with Chalice and Jitte. Then I streamlined it and came up with this build.

UR Vial Fish
/Creatures
3 Ninja of the Deep Hours
3 Voidmage Prodigy
4 Spiketail Hatchling
4 Grim Lavamancer
3 Gorilla Shaman
/Counters
4 FoW
4 REB
2 Daze
/Other
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
/Mana
4 Aether Vial
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
2 Island
2 Polluted Dela
4 Flooded Strand
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

/Sideboard
4 Rack and Ruin
3 Waterfront Bouncer
2 Lava Dart
6 Open

This build is based entirely around everything in the deck costing 2 mana or less. This makes it much more plausible to cast multiple cards per turn and keep counter/activation mana open.

Short wtf stuff is as it is.
Creatuire base: Grim Lavamancer is here, because he kills Welder, helps against other Fish decks and is another Wizard to sac to Voidmage. Meanwhile Shaman is good w/o help and even better with Chalice or Strips assisting it. I'm tempted to go up to 4. Hatchling is a direct result of this, I found Daze type effects were very good, but running Daze itself would leave me short creature-wise. Hence I compromised and ran 4 Hatchling. Voidmage was also added to help up the counterbase to a total of 15 CS effects.

REB Maindeck: It's very good right now against control and better than any alternative except maybe Daze. This combined with Daze is one of the best counterbases I've gotten to run with -any- Fish deck.

The draw: It's pointless to run Brainstorm, because you literally will just draw more crap. And Standstill is way more conditional than Ninja...  so that was the conclusion I came too. Ninja + Ancestral is really all you need.

The matches are pretty standard for a Fish deck.
The bad:
You have a lot of issues with Oath pre and post board and you won't beat FCG very often.

The Good:
Gifts is a decent match, because all of your answers are dirt-cheap and with mana denial like this it's hard for them to play around Daze and Spiketail. Control Slaver is the one match where I would prefer Null Rod to Chalice, but again the mana denial component really helps. Stax is a good match purely because you can shit out a lot of perms and Rack and Ruin from the board helps to make their day a little less bright.

The Ugly:
MWS Aggro is stupid. Active Jitte or bust is the mantra until board.

Thoughts, suggestions, Penguins?
« Last Edit: August 12, 2005, 07:08:26 pm by Vegeta2711 » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2005, 07:17:18 pm »

when you say that stax is a good matchup, did you test Uba Stax?

REB's will be dead cards, vial and jitte get shut off by rod, chalice can be eaten by shaman (if they even need to), waste/strip will be a pain with only 2 basic lands, and the hate outta the board (Rack and Ruin) is horrible vs Uba Mask.

In this match-up I feel like the Ninja's and voidmages may be too slow, but at least the grim's and hatchlings could be a pain.
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« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2005, 07:22:08 pm »

I've been screwing around with Fish in Legacy, and I discovered that with the sole exception of something like Fire/Ice or Mox Monkey, Jitte does everything you want out of red, but can't replace white's Swords to Plowshares or Meddling Mages.  I'm mentally comparing this list to WTF and I can't figure out where it gains any advantage.  It loses WTF's ability to randomly do 8 with Mongrel/Rootwalla but doesn't seem to gain much; Jitte has been a Welder kill for some time.  I'd think a UW Chalice build would be much stronger.

Ninja: I never found Ninja doing much for me because the games were over too quickly; either Mongrel + Jitte came in for the win or they Giftsed and won.  Also, it's situationally dead, and sucks up a lot of mana.  The change that was strongly recommended to me by #TMD was Roowater Thief.  This would help shore up a lot of bad matchups, especially Oath.  He also makes Jitte worse by a little.

Voidmage Prodigy: I'd think this would rack up the deck's weakness to cards like Fire/Ice and Lava Dart by increasing the number of dudes you run with a butt of 1.  Also, with the Ninjas and the Jittes, how often are you going to be having the mana to counter stuff with this?

Spiketail: Good for you.  This really will help shore up the rougher combo matches because it slows them down by a turn, by acting like a Sphere of Resistance that beats.

Draw: I know, you say Ninja + Ancestral is enough, but it isn't.  With Fish scrubbing out of SCG, everyone thinks it sucks, so it's a good time to run Standstill again.  Although you could get away with running Brainstorm since you care about specific cards like Jitte more than you just need a bunch of cards to feed a hungry Mongrel.

Sideboard: I'd recommend 2x Rushing River.  Not only does it help against Oath but it's an option against Gifts, especially with many of the Gifts players being unable to Tendrils unless you hand it to them.  I'd also get the 4th Jitte, just because in many matchups you're going to rely on pulling Jitte and winning (like Shop decks, or Goblins).
No Kira, by the way?  Not only does it help you where you expect Old Man (like Stax), but where it's relevant you have an extra creature to swing with, and she hits for two in the air.  You only have one other flier, and that's Spiketail.
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Vegeta2711
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« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2005, 07:43:11 pm »

when you say that stax is a good matchup, did you test Uba Stax?

REB's will be dead cards, vial and jitte get shut off by rod, chalice can be eaten by shaman (if they even need to), waste/strip will be a pain with only 2 basic lands, and the hate outta the board (Rack and Ruin) is horrible vs Uba Mask.

In this match-up I feel like the Ninja's and voidmages may be too slow, but at least the grim's and hatchlings could be a pain.

Not really, it's not like Uba Stax has been widely played at all so I never bothered testing it until like a week ago. It's certainly a worse match than other Stax decks, but it's not quite as god-awful as you make it sound. In the match there are 3 cards I hate seeing. Null Rod, Smokestack and Trinisphere. Uba Mask seems painful, but it really isn't. Most of the build is permenants. Only 1/5th of the deck is actually affected and the majority of the time those counters are shitty topdecks anyway. Crucible Strip is bad, but that's awful to play against with every deck. I originally had 4 Island's maindeck until I realized I consistently only need 1-2 Island in play to begin with. So it's worse, but I don't know exactly how much so.

I'm mentally comparing this list to WTF and I can't figure out where it gains any advantage.

Ninja: I never found Ninja doing much for me because the games were over too quickly; either Mongrel + Jitte came in for the win or they Giftsed and won. Also, it's situationally dead, and sucks up a lot of mana. The change that was strongly recommended to me by #TMD was Roowater Thief. This would help shore up a lot of bad matchups, especially Oath. He also makes Jitte worse by a little.

Voidmage Prodigy: I'd think this would rack up the deck's weakness to cards like Fire/Ice and Lava Dart by increasing the number of dudes you run with a butt of 1. Also, with the Ninjas and the Jittes, how often are you going to be having the mana to counter stuff with this?

Draw: I know, you say Ninja + Ancestral is enough, but it isn't. With Fish scrubbing out of SCG, everyone thinks it sucks, so it's a good time to run Standstill again. Although you could get away with running Brainstorm since you care about specific cards like Jitte more than you just need a bunch of cards to feed a hungry Mongrel.

Sideboard: I'd recommend 2x Rushing River. Not only does it help against Oath but it's an option against Gifts, especially with many of the Gifts players being unable to Tendrils unless you hand it to them. I'd also get the 4th Jitte, just because in many matchups you're going to rely on pulling Jitte and winning (like Shop decks, or Goblins).
No Kira, by the way? Not only does it help you where you expect Old Man (like Stax), but where it's relevant you have an extra creature to swing with, and she hits for two in the air. You only have one other flier, and that's Spiketail.

It gains a major advantage in the CS and Gifts matches by having more mana disruption and more counters. WTF focuses way more on beating down than disrupting and that just kills it sometimes.

Ninja is draw. Shitty draw, but draw none the less. He's also a creature which is valuable when you choose to cut the asstatic factories.

Voidmage: I consistently have mana to power him if I choose. The entire deck is a careful balance of give and take. You want to play out threats on a semi-consistent basis, but hold back to deter the opponent from trying to resolve anything good. It's more of a instinct thing.

Standstill is awful. That's where I stand on it.  When I usually wanted to cast it, it left me tapped out more often than not. Many times I wished I rather had a threat or counter in it's place. Other times it'd be on the board, but I couldn't coax my opponent into actviating it until he was damn well ready. Meanwhile I sat there looking like a chump unable to play more threats or Jitte.

Kira is a decent choice for the board. In the maindeck she's worthless. Nobody plays maindeck spot removal anymore and she costs 3 which is just bullshit period. Why Rushing River over Echoing Truth or Chain of Vapor though? Is it just to bounce Oath and a creature togheter?
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« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2005, 11:05:02 pm »

mmm, more thoughts on the decklist now that I've two-fisted it a little.

Lava dart in the SB seems out of place. You only have 4 red sources to begin with, and you really need those to power out your grims and monkeys. If you are aggressively using your darts flashback, you are gonna be screwing the pooch later on when you need that recursive bit of damage to kill that second or third welder.

Instead have you considered pithing needle in the side? I assume the dart is for welders and/or to a lesser extent shaman. Everything in fish is a 2/2 these days, and dart is prob less useful there. If so, pithing needle will still shut off the goblin in the CS/WS match-up, with the added benefit of being able to cast it off colorless mana.

as for the Oath match-up,  you could always pull a number from vial-WTF and pull the Meddling Mage conversion SB. Toss in a Tundra/Plains to the SB, go back to running 4 UW fetches to make it reliable and then with the mana smoothing from Vial you should be okay. Combine all that will a little generic bounce (I'm thinking E-truth) and you prob would turn the match-up around to pretty favorable.

also, I like Kira more then old-man for the mirror.
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« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2005, 11:59:06 pm »

Quote
Kira is a decent choice for the board. In the maindeck she's worthless. Nobody plays maindeck spot removal anymore and she costs 3 which is just bullshit period.
Not even Triskelion, who single-handedly rips Chalice Fish apart?

Barry
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Vegeta2711
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« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2005, 12:10:50 am »

Quote
Kira is a decent choice for the board. In the maindeck she's worthless. Nobody plays maindeck spot removal anymore and she costs 3 which is just bullshit period.
Not even Triskelion, who single-handedly rips Chalice Fish apart?

Barry

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« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2005, 05:56:30 am »

As suggested above, a sideboard adding white could solve a lot of problems. You get Meddling Mage and STP etc.
Considering your worst concern are MWS aggro decks, Jittes and Collossuses, a wizard called Stormscape Apprentice springs to my mind. He also improves your matchup against Oath and the major advantage of him being a Wizard and being blue would make it worth testing in my opinion.

Good luck on your deck, I've goldfished it a couple of times and I agree about your points on Standstill/Brainstorm etc. You gain plenty of cardadvantage through Jitte, Shaman, Lavamancer and obv. the Recall and Ninja's.
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« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2005, 07:29:39 am »

some advice from the enemy:
we've tested ubastax extensively against UR fish, even versions w hardcore maindeck hate like stern proctor, mog fanatic and viashino heretic. you still lose. theres really no creature based clock in vintage longer than akroma on the heels of night spirit, that is fast enough to stop stax from getting board control and grinding out wins. your 3 fear cards dont include crucible which is now a built in win condition plus creature hoser via barbarian ring. Ive played plenty of games where I resolve crucible and then just mill my deck w bazaar until I find ring and clear fish's board with that alone.
with that and duplicant in mind, Kira looks very solid. good thing theres always smoky.
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« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2005, 10:39:57 am »

I'm curious as to what your reasoning was behind cutting Mishra's Factory.

Also, what about the absence of Standstill?  Have you considered maybe lowering the Standstill count (to 2 or 3) rather than cutting it altogether?

Edit: In sitting here considering the build more, I guess if you cut factory then you almost have to cut Standstill, short of running Faerie Conclave.  Although, the synergy of Ninja with Standstill (especially with so many 1-drop creatures) would make me want to still run it.  I guess by freeing up the mana by getting rid of factory and adding Vial, the plan is to always be able to play whatever counters you have instead of running in to the classic "Mishra's Factory/Voidmage Prodigy/other counters or utility mana" debate that is characteristic of fish.

As a random note, I have found 4 Spiketail + 3 Daze to be optimal, although I'm of the opinion that you should run either both Daze and Spiketail or neither at all.  I've run two daze and found that to be ok as well, although I felt like I wasn't getting it often enough when I needed it.  Finally, I was only running the 4 Forces with no REB's maindeck.

One last thing: I feel like this deck will just get trounced by any aggro deck, and I feel like this deck would lose to Vial WTF running Mongrel, a potentially important semi-mirror.  Is Lavamancer + Jitte enough to carry it's weight through the mirrors and semi-mirrors?  What about fish builds running Null Rod? Can the shaman typically get enough mana to destroy a rod or is the deck such that it can just play around Rod?
« Last Edit: August 15, 2005, 10:56:40 am by Yare » Logged
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« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2005, 12:05:13 pm »

Sure REB is good, but is it 4 md slots good?  I'd think you'd want at least another Daze over an REB.

Lava Dart in the board makes me curious.  This is to kill Welders, I'm assuming.  Because it sure as hell isn't going to do much v. Fish variants (especially WTF) now that Fish has Jitte.  Why not make these BEB's?


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