Thirst in Gifts - Unfinished Article

[PucktheCat]

Steve, I remember talking with you on the phone after the exact test session you are talking about.  I remember how frustrated you were about losing to Slaver.  I have a few comments to make:

1. Don't let a single bad test session dictate your reasoning.  Every time I pick up a new deck to test against I go through a period like the one you describe at least once before I think I understand the matchup.  T1 is swingy, and shit happens.  You test a lot, and so you have to expect some improbable things to happen.  I have lost 10 in a row in testing to Uba Stax, IT, Oath, Dawn of the Dead, and probably some things that I have forgotten.

2. Pithing Needle dramatically reduces the chances of a Slaver ending the game.  Since I switched some of Misdirections to Needles very early on (Stax meta) I can't comment on the matchup without any Needles; you may be right that you need the Drain over Ancestral if you have so few answers to resolved permanents.  I would take that as a sign of the inherent weakness of the Needleless builds though, because you are giving up quite a lot of potential advantage in the early game out of fear of a game winning Slaver.  A build with Needle (or, I suppose Crypt) can press its advantage in the situation you describe with less risk of a Slaver stealing the game.

[The Atog Lord]

Steve,

I never said that you were or would be "locked out" by Tormod's Crypt. I didn't say it ended the game or anything along those lines. Rather, I think it fundamentally warps the dynamic of the matchup and tilts it into Control Slaver's favor.

As for your deck assuming the control role. I suppose we can just disagree on whether Meandeck Gifts can out-control Control Slaver. The real question to ask in this thread is, I think, whether your build or Brassman's build is better at assuming the Control role. Brassman Gifts doesn't have as explosive an early game as your deck. However, I think it does a better job of playing the midgame. While your build can get a quick burst of card advantage via Ancestral early on, Brassman gifts has more actual draw spells than you do. This matters more and more the further the game progresses. Further, Brassman Gifts has Pithing Needle to prevent various nightmare cards from becoming effective. Further, using the Illusions-Donate style combo of Belc^h^h^h^h Timevault and Flame, Brassman Gifts is better at winning small, by simply assembling the two-piece-puzzle.

EDIT:
Everything I said about Brassman Gifts needs to be re-evaluated now that the Flame Vault combo doesn't work. Sigh.

[Smmenen]

Steve,

I never said that you were or would be "locked out" by Tormod's Crypt. I didn't say it ended the game or anything along those lines. Rather, I think it fundamentally warps the dynamic of the matchup and tilts it into Control Slaver's favor.

As for your deck assuming the control role. I suppose we can just disagree on whether Meandeck Gifts can out-control Control Slaver. The real question to ask in this thread is, I think, whether your build or Brassman's build is better at assuming the Control role. Brassman Gifts doesn't have as explosive an early game as your deck. However, I think it does a better job of playing the midgame. While your build can get a quick burst of card advantage via Ancestral early on, Brassman gifts has more actual draw spells than you do. This matters more and more the further the game progresses. Further, Brassman Gifts has Pithing Needle to prevent various nightmare cards from becoming effective. Further, using the Illusions-Donate style combo of Belc^h^h^h^h Timevault and Flame, Brassman Gifts is better at winning small, by simply assembling the two-piece-puzzle.

EDIT:
Everything I said about Brassman Gifts needs to be re-evaluated now that the Flame Vault combo doesn't work. Sigh.

I think one key point that we disagree on is precisely how Gifts can be used.  I tend to assume that Ancestral can help you ride into a gifts victory.  But I think people tend to misunderstand precisely how that can play out.  I do not jsut assume that I'm wining with a combo gifts - I think Gifts can be used to maintain your marginal advantage for the rest of the game. 

[The Atog Lord]

I agree that we disagree on just how good Meandeck Gifts is at playing the control role.

However, I think that at this point the discussion is neither here nor there. The theme of the thread is a comparison of your Gifts build against that of Brassman. And it seems that Brassman's Gifts deck just took a serious hit. So, since Brassman Gifts isn't really a deck anymore, at least not in its former state with a quick six mana two card win, I'm not sure comparing your build to a nonexistent deck is worthwhile. Sad to say.

[Smmenen]

I agree that we disagree on just how good Meandeck Gifts is at playing the control role.

However, I think that at this point the discussion is neither here nor there. The theme of the thread is a comparison of your Gifts build against that of Brassman. And it seems that Brassman's Gifts deck just took a serious hit. So, since Brassman Gifts isn't really a deck anymore, at least not in its former state with a quick six mana two card win, I'm not sure comparing your build to a nonexistent deck is worthwhile. Sad to say.

No no no - I was saying that hte bone of contention is really how good the card *gifts Ungiven* is at creating marginal advantages or sustaining them. 

I said:

I think one key point that we disagree on is precisely how Gifts can be used.  I tend to assume that Ancestral can help you ride into a gifts victory.  But I think people tend to misunderstand precisely how that can play out.  I do not jsut assume that I'm wining with a combo gifts - I think Gifts can be used to maintain your marginal advantage for the rest of the game.

I think that you think Gifts can't really be used that effectively in that manner - and as a consequence you don't think MDG has a draw engine.  I beg to differ. 

[The Atog Lord]

Gifts Ungiven creates card advantage, no doubt. It is a two-for-one. However, I don't think it is great at doing that job when Tormod's Crypt is on the table because Crypt makes it be used "fairly." You show me four cards. You get two of the cards, and the better two are removed from the game. So, you do get a two-for-one advantage, but at the same time you are getting two better cards removed from your library. You also can't set up the backbreaking Yawgmoth Gifts where you win no matter which cards I give back to you. However, I do understand that Gifts still works to fill up your hand, even with Crypt on the table. If you show me Brainstorm, Scroll, Drain, and Force, you're getting two good cards no matter what I do. It just isn't nearly as good as it would be without that Crypt on the table.

[MaxxMatt]

Due to the fact that F.F/Vault Combo is no more available, I think that the skeleton of a BMGifts.dec would switch a bit more towards the one that I proposed in my last thread.

Brassman is playing at least 3 Giftsin his build now. It isn't so different from playing with the fourththat carachterize the MD.build.
He his playing 3 black tutors and 4 tfks instead of playing with a full set of m.scroll and a couple of additional pitch counters.

I think that if you like Gifts, you can have satisfactions by playing both the decks, but you can be good at playing only one of the two decks, because they are really strategically different.

Give BMGifts to Smmemen and he would probably not win as much as Brassmann and so on...
They are two good approach to the same strategy.
Outplay the opponent and with with the nuts

[Vegeta2711]

Due to the fact that F.F/Vault Combo is no more available, I think that the skeleton of a BMGifts.dec would switch a bit more towards the one that I proposed in my last thread.

Brassman is playing at least 3 Giftsin his build now. It isn't so different from playing with the fourththat carachterize the MD.build.
He his playing 3 black tutors and 4 tfks instead of playing with a full set of m.scroll and a couple of additional pitch counters.

I think that if you like Gifts, you can have satisfactions by playing both the decks, but you can be good at playing only one of the two decks, because they are really strategically different.

Give BMGifts to Smmemen and he would probably not win as much as Brassmann and so on...
They are two good approach to the same strategy.
Outplay the opponent and with with the nuts

Shouldn't BMG just become Slaver at this point? There's really no point in going back to a crappier kill condition and keeping the rest of the deck the same.

[MaxxMatt]

@Vegeta.

I'm really satisfied by the approach that I gave to my Giftsdeck.
The winning condition that I'm going to use are really streamlined and they are no crappy at all.
A maindeck DSC and a B.Wishable ToA are enough to take care of opponents' decks.

The TFK's based deck that I proposed, isn't a shift back to something weak or unrealistic but it is can be considered the natural prosecution of the BMG deck.

Which are the Pros of such a deck?
It can set up his wins both through Gifts/FoF/Merchants and both through TFKs/Merchants/Needles/Crypts.
This dualism would let you play strategically different games against specific opponents.


Are you playing against Denial based decks?
The low mana curve required to chain TFKs after TFKs would help you developing a good mana base.
With it, they can't usually stop your final and winning rush

Are you playing against Control based decks?
You can abuse of both cheap drawers ( TFKs ) and strong draw engines ( Gifts ).
You have at your disposal both quality and quantity.
Your ability at playing this game, would state if you are going to win or lose.

Are you playing against Combo decks?
You are not the best equipped among the control decks to abuse this matchup.
You cannot afford a full set of Duresses or CotVs but you are going to play a "stalling" game during the first two or three turns of it.
Merchant for FoWs or Drains, EoT deep digging thanks to TFKs and early Tutor's power would put an edge over him, if you are well aware of your opponent's deck.
Post side your matchup would be improved a bit by Duresses and ReBs/Pyros


So, in the end, why playing with Welders again, trying to badly mimic what instead is C.Slavery?
I can easily stop a couple of C-S strong first or second turn plays with quick answers ( Crypt, Darkblast, Needle ) and the game can procede, from that point, equally well for both of us.
I have a better draw engine and no clunky cards.
During the midgame, we have access to almost the same spread of tools and counters.
I have a couple of additional drawers or "Y.Will enhancers" that would capitalize in a better way all the mana at my disposal.
Gifts Ungiven IS the crucial card to play during the midgame to optimized the GodHand built until that moment.

Watering down that build adding Welders, as in the past, isn't a good thing IMHO, and playing C.Slavery instead of this build isn't a better thing to do too.

The approaches to the game are different but equally strong.
I would add some tourneys' experiences and test results during this days to support those words.

MaxxMatt

[Smmenen]

So, are gifts players finally conceding the point to me?  Rich, after our discussion this weekend and the results in Charlotte, what is your opinion now?

[The Atog Lord]

Steve, based fully on our testing at Origins, I have more respect for your version of Gifts. Namely, its ability to use a Merchant Scroll to get itself a Force of Will was especially impressive. This translates into the deck's ability to slow the gameclock down by ensuring that it has counter magic online. Oftentimes against combo, a Drain deck is put in the position where it either has a counter or it loses. Using Merchant Scroll let the deck play with four more counters, as did playing with Misdirection. In other words, it impressed me a lot with its ability to toss up a wall of counters.

[Methuselahn]

I agree that we disagree on just how good Meandeck Gifts is at playing the control role.

However, I think that at this point the discussion is neither here nor there. The theme of the thread is a comparison of your Gifts build against that of Brassman. And it seems that Brassman's Gifts deck just took a serious hit. So, since Brassman Gifts isn't really a deck anymore, at least not in its former state with a quick six mana two card win, I'm not sure comparing your build to a nonexistent deck is worthwhile. Sad to say.

No no no - I was saying that hte bone of contention is really how good the card *gifts Ungiven* is at creating marginal advantages or sustaining them. 

I said:

I think one key point that we disagree on is precisely how Gifts can be used.  I tend to assume that Ancestral can help you ride into a gifts victory.  But I think people tend to misunderstand precisely how that can play out.  I do not jsut assume that I'm wining with a combo gifts - I think Gifts can be used to maintain your marginal advantage for the rest of the game.

I think that you think Gifts can't really be used that effectively in that manner - and as a consequence you don't think MDG has a draw engine.  I beg to differ. 

I’ve played a few Gifts decks here and there.

I think that if you run  4 TfKs you are going to be discarding Moxes at some point.  The alternative is usually worse.  This includes discarding other things or not even playing it when you should.   Using Gifts alongside Thirst to obtain marginal advantages isn’t possible because you  really need those Moxes,  That’s why  there are fewer Gifts in GG’s Control Gifts (or w/e it was called).  In BMG, you use Thirsts to obtain marginal increases and lategame Gifts to set up the single Belcher/Fusillade/Severence/Vault/Assembly Worker kill. 

That’s more or less how I‘ve approached each of those strategies..

Is Gifts in a Thirst deck ‘better’ than Gifts with Scroll?  I doubt that a consensus will ever be reached as to which deck is better, they are too similar and player skill is too large of a factor.

Both decks are entirely valid.  MDG plays a much more aggressive role and Gifts Ungiven’s  utility just isn’t as flexible in BMG, IMO.

[MaxxMatt]

I'm working and testing a new version of Gifts.dec, based on the TFK+AdditionalTools skeleton.
I have M.Scrolls in it, not a full set but always one or two of them.

This deck ( as the previous one proposed by me some months ago in thhis forum) is for MD-Gifts, what RichShay-C-S was for Goth-Slaver in the past.

It can win better/worse than the other one only basing on the experience of the player who is piloting it. TFK.dec has tools and drawers where the other have tutors and additional counters.

I practized both of them and I feel that my versions ( or Brassmann's old ones ) can develop his win through a minor mana development, at least during the first few turns of the game. It needs an overall lower amount of mana and IMHO, it is a safer path to follow when playing in fields full of hate or aware of your strategies.

I added immunity to "Jester's first shot", too,  playing Tinker, DSC, B.Wish, C.Wishx2 for a total of 4 winning conditions. Post side I can even add the ones in sideboard to power up this route.
I noticed that MD-Gifts, still lose to random Caps, and it happens now far more frequently than in the past, so it could not be underrated.


MD-Gifts is good and strong AS MUCH as the other TFKs.decs proposed until now.
Especially if both are well played.
Still need a winner?

MaxxMatt