4cc still playable?

[lesly]

ok,maybe you guys think hmmm why is he playing an old deck thats not going to win anymore?because i like the deck to play and i think its still playable and a very strong deck,even though i have no power(not as strong as a couple of years ago but still)

this is my own decklist,maybe you guys could help me improving it.
COUNTERS
4X mana drain
4x force of will

DRAW
4x brainstorm
3x skeletal scrying
1x fact or fiction

REMOVAL
3x swords to plowshares
1x balance
1x fire/ice
2x mox monkey(some sort of removal)

WIN CONDITION
2x decree of justice
1x morphling

TUTOR'S
3x cunning wish
1x demonic tutor
1x mystical tutor

OTHER STUFF
1x mind twist
1x yawg.will
2x crucible of worlds

mana
1x sol ring
4x flooded strands
4x tundra
4x underground sea
2x volcanic island
3x city of brass
2x island
4x wasteland
1x strip mine

SIDEBOARD
3x disenchant
2x rack and ruin
1x swords to plowshares
1x vampiric tutor
1x skeletal scrying
3x serenity
1x coffin purge
3x bleu elemental blasts.

first of all,i think i play to much removal for t1(have to cut the 3rd swords but don't know for what)

i need to find something to have more acces to my cards(i thought to play sensei divining top2x but wasn't sure about that)

there is 1 morphling main because,sometimes you just want something to hit harder then multiply soldier tokens.

2 crucible main because i only play 2 basic islands,and i can have my crucible/waste lock faster
the deck needs some speed(but i have no moxes)and i think nothing can speed it up,but maybe you guys know something?

serenity in sideboard vs stax.together with 2 rack and ruins and 3 disenchants(i think its to much vs stax but disenchant is also vs oath)

i played 3c for about 4months and a half but i miss the bleu elemental blast and the monkey's(wich help very good)

i hope you guys have some comment for me

thanks in advance anyway

[lesly]

sorry i dind know that.
btw i am playing tournaments with this deck,so it isn't that casual

[Bram]

It's almost as though you didn't read the rather lenghty and friendly PM I just sent you. I asked you to read our posting rules before posting. This post violates, oh, I dunno, about 4 of them.
1. Writing skills - writing in all-lowercase and excessive use of abbreviations
2. Unjustified thread redundancy - there are NUMEROUS threads on 3cc and 4cc on the boards. Use the search button for info on decklists.
3. Lack of content - there is nothing new or interesting about your build. It is merely a request for information.
4. Bad decks - specifically, a group 1 budget deck which is automatically moved to Vintage Newbie.

I'd be perfectly justified in closing this down and giving you a verbal warning, but I'll do neither, as I believe in second chances. This was not a very good first post. Moved to Newbie.

[lesly]

ok,sorry for that

[Demonic Attorney]

Hello.

The first thing I've noticed about your deck is that you aren't running what are commonly referred to as "power" cards.  By power cards I mean, Black Lotus, the original five Moxes, Ancestral, and Time Walk.  Do the tournaments you play in allow proxies?  If so, how many?  These cards do tend to be exceptionally useful for players who include them in their decks, so you might want to think about finding space for them.

Proceeding from there, I can make the following suggestions about your list from a quick glance:

1.  You probably have too many Swords to Plowshares.  While I won't say that efficient creature removal is unnecessary in Vintage, I will say that most of the top contender decks don't rely on creatures as their principal means of winning.  So, I'd say that 3 StP is probably a bit excessive.  You might consider cutting 2-3 and including some number in your sideboard.

2.  I think you also have too many Cunning Wishes.  While I see that you've carefully built your sideboard to take advantage of Cunning Wish's flexibility, I'm sure you've noticed that relying on Cunning Wish to find instant-speed answers can be quite mana-intensive.  I'd cut back on these as well, in similar numbers to your Swords count, i.e. cut them all, or leave at most one.  If you really feel you need a diverse answer in your deck, I'd suggest running flexible instants main so you don't need to invest an additional 3 mana in getting one from your sideboard.

3. Skeletal Scrying is a bit better to have large numbers, but I think 3 might be one too many.  I'd suggest using two and freeing up the slot for a power card, if you can run them in the tournaments you attend.

4. You run no basic lands.  This is a huge risk against many decks in the field right now.  Many top contenders run Wasteland which could potentially cripple you if you're forced to rely on a mana-light hand, especially considering you have no artifact sources of mana in your deck.  Furthermore, some players have been known to try to surprise the field with Blood Moon when they think the majority of their competitors have forgotten about it.  That card would absolutely kill this build of the deck, and that's a risk you shouldn't open yourself up to if you can help it.

5.  Your control engine is surprisingly weak.  As I understand it, 4cc is functionally a dedicated control deck.  This is still a viable strategy and all, but there are other decks with more aggressive strategies with stronger control engines than yours.  What this means for you is that you'll be hard-pressed to sit back and go counter for counter against a more aggressive, powered deck that runs your complement of Force of Will and Mana Drain, but added Duress or Misdirection.  Given the commitment to black in your manabase, adding Duress seems like the easiest choice.

6. Morphling.  I'm not sure Morphling is the major force it once was.  Most decks have a way to at least fend it off indefinitely, while they put resources into pursuing their own strategy.  For example, Control Slaver could keep Morphling at bay with 2 mana and a Pentavus while it dug for a Slaver and a Welder, or tutored up Will to play through Boseiju.  You'd probably be better off not running Morphling.

7. Lone Fire/Ice.  I don't see the point to running a singleton Fire/Ice.  It provides you with mediocre removal for 1/1 creatures like Welder, or decent card draw.  My suggestion would be, decide which one you want and find a better dedication version of that ability.  If you want Welder removal, you're running Mountains, so I'd suggest Lava Dart, or if you're one for subscribing to new fads, Darkblast since you have black sources, too.  If you want additional card draw, try freeing up enough space to run 4 Accumulated Knowledge.  Most players don't use it, so it isn't as much of a liability now as it used to be.


Your sideboard seems a little better, but there were still some things that I noticed at first blush.

8.  BEB seems like an unduly narrow card these days.  If you want it for Welder/Lackey removal, I'd really urge you to try Lava Dart instead.  If you want it as an ace against Dragon, a bounce spell would be more flexible.

9. Disenchant seems a little weak, especially to invest three sideboard slots in.  I think you could find cards that are simply better against any deck you'd want Disenchant against.

10.  Given my advice about Cunning Wish being unnecessary in your main deck, the extra Scrying and Vampiric Tutor can go.  I like Serenity though; very good choice.


There's probably more than more experienced 4cc players could add, but those are the first things that leapt out at me when I looked over your list.  I'm not really a veteran with the deck, but I think my general experience in Vintage supports my findings.  You might get even better advice from 4cc players if you had specific questions about the deck-- what have been your problem matchups?  What has the deck been having trouble doing that you believe it needs to do better?  Questions along those lines might make it easier for people to help you out.

One final thought.  4cc has a very hard time with a lot of decks right now.  It has a notoriously poor matchup against Control Slaver, which if you're from the Northeast, you will never go to a tournament and not see.  Combo decks such as GrimLong and 2 land belcher also seem to be back in vogue, and also stand to cause you problems, since they're very difficult to implement an effective control strategy against unless your deck gets going extremely quickly.  Your list, and 4cc in general, have a hard time doing that.  Lastly, decks built around Gifts Ungiven seem like they do most everything 4cc does, but better and much faster, with a more efficient win condition.  The three decks I've just mentioned are all arguably top decks in Vintage right now, so playing a deck that has a bad matchup against them might make doing well in major tournaments tough for you.  You might want to try looking through the tournament results forum, reading over some of the decklists that have performing well lately, and seeing if you can put one of those together.

Well, that's all I have.  I hope you found this post helpful.  Welcome to the TMD.  We put the "itis" in "elitist"!

[MoxMonkey]

I played Underpowered 4CC for a while and it can work but you have to metagame it mainboard and sideboard to take on the field.  I think you want all the Acceleration you can get.  With so many Lands I can see sneaking in a Mox diamond can be easy.  Lotus petal is great.  Mana Crypt and Vault might be helpful to speed up some spells and Chrome mox is worth testing.
Cunning Wish can be played but Id onyl run 1 as its very mana intensive and most likly not going to hold its weight without the moxen.
I wonder why for Win conditions you dont use Exalted Angel.  Drains make it a great sink and its  a threat and can single handly take a goblin deck.
I would also up the number of counters in the main board since your not going really broken having a couple Misdirection and or Duress could do a lot.   
Vampiric Tutor while slow can find anything in the deck and might be worth testing to see if it can help you.  I would also try to fit in a third island since 2 is good but 3 is great.  5strips mean 1 island will most likly get Striped and you will not get double blue up.
Other than that theres a great thread i nthe open forum for 3CC and some older ones on 4CC if you care to look them up.  just remember metagaming cards and changing the list up every so often.
Good luck.

[lesly]

Ok first of all,i have no money for power i worked in the vacation then bought duals and mana drains.
So i have no more money for very expensive cards(i mean by that power).
I know the the deck is slow without moxes,but i like to play the deck so i will  try to keep playing it and omproving it.
And why not disenchant in the sideboard?how do you guys take oath then?
I  should consider spawning pit maybe?
I will remove a plow and a fire/ice, ,together with the morphling and a wish for some duress or something.

thx for the help and pointing out the weaknesses in my deck

[Whatever Works]

4cc is still not very viable... why? Because there are better kills availible then when it first came into existence.

However, If you really really want to play 4cc in todays metagame... There is NO reason whatsoever to not run at least 3 Sacred Ground in the sideboard. Also the kill should be strictly tinker/collossus + 1 Decree... and 2-3 Shaman... Shaman gives the deck at least some chance vs. control slaver...

[silvernail]

If you give me a synopsis of what kind of decks people in your area reguarly play, then Id be glad to offer my advice. Aside from that, there are general problems with the deck but I'd need to know what specific decks I'm dealing with in order to fix it.

[lesly]

@silvernail
In my region most of the people play,slavery,gifts,stax,and sometimes oath.
@whatever works,i told you already i have no money for power,then why should i play tinker/collosus?

btw What do you people think?can 3cc be better then 4cc?I wil post a new decklist soon!
In the meantime i could use the tips.


thanks in advance anyaway

[Whatever Works]

@silvernail
In my region most of the people play,slavery,gifts,stax,and sometimes oath.
@whatever works,i told you already i have no money for power,then why should i play tinker/collosus?

thanks in advance anyaway

Well If you dont have power you could always run the artifact lands, but you really cant do that for 4cc. 4cc is a deck that relies more on power then almost any other deck in the format (and its not even really in the format)...

If you cant afford power and you want to play a competitve deck looking at your current metagame I would reccomend either UB Fish or even any version of fish (You can refference my day 2 waterbury 1st place split) which wrecks slaver/gifts, Or maybe doomsday would be a viable budget deck especially with the release of ravnica that gave it more options.

4c is better the 3c with power, and shaman is a house right now... However, without power 4c is much harder to get away with then 3c.

[silvernail]

Well it looks like your up vs a strong regime of powered(y/n?) decks.

Oath and Stax usually pack wasteland and/or other mana denial componets, that will make running more colors harder, but i think 4cc is still playable in your field.

COUNTERS
4X mana drain
4x force of will
(...)
1x coffin purge
1x Misdirection

No need to quote the whole decklist, please. It's the only list that appeared in this thread so far, and we've seen it.  - Bram

Your biggest issue, is that you dont have much mana acceleration, and that makes you slower than most of the decks you play against. Id would suggest Null rods to slow them down with or possibly energy fluxes, i listed rods because they cost 2 instead of 3 to cast.

Echoing truth replaced the swords and fire/ice because it can let you bounce most anything, and that is a very helpful ability to have.

You could add lotus petal to enable turn one mana drains, but i wouldnt know what to cut for it.

Tinker/col is not possible in your deck because you dont have enough artifacts to cast tinker with.

As for the sb - scared grounds are great vs stax
REB help in the blue matches
the misdiretion can be a surpise wish target that can steal valuble spells, like ancestral recall
the orims chant can suprise people and stop their turn in its tracks, almost like a wishable time walk in somecases.

Thats my suggestions for now, just understand that your deck is "slow" comapred to the rest of the field and play off that by making them fight on your level.

[lesly]

I know my deck is slow.
And i don't want to play fish or someting like that its just so boring to play(thats my opinion)
sacred gound is indeed great against stax,but i play 2 cruc main,if i should play 3ground on side wouldn't it be to much then?

[MoxMonkey]

Even Without Power you do have drains and with some other Artifact Acceleration you should be ok.  I would do something like what I use to have with some changes
26 Mana sources
2 City of brass
4 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Strip Mine
4 Wastelands
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Diamond
1 Chrome Mox
1 Grim Monolith / Mana Crypt  I would use Grim since I tend to lose to Crypt a lot

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
2 Disrupt / Duress
1 Misdirection

1 Cunning Wish
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Balance
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Darkblast

2 Skeletal Scrying
1 Fact or Fiction
4 Brainstorm
1 Mind Twist
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Crucible of Worlds

2 Decree of Justice
2 Exalted Angel
2 Gorilla Shaman

It worked for me and its not that bad even without moxen Ancestral Recall is something you miss being able to Tutor for but you work around it.  The SB would have afew Wish targets and some Metagame Slots so you can help out difficult Matchups

3 REB
2 BEB
2 Tormod's Cypt
1 Skeletal Scrying
3 Serenity
1 Disenchant
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Disrupt / Duress #3 or a metagame card like Coffin purge or something you want to be able to Wish for.  I dont like Echoing Truth in this deck since you can Disenchant and Swords anything and have it gone for ever.  Hope this helps you out a little more had to dig up my list and made a few changes to help in the current Metagame.

[silvernail]

What Bram neglected to notice is i also altered the mana base by -1 underground sea +1 island, i also took out some cards and replaced them, though i believe most of them where stated in the post itself.

Next time i suppose ill bold all the changes so mods dont get trigger happy....

3 might be 1 too many for Scared Grounds, but crucible costs 3 which might be hard ot get vs stax if they can disrupt your mana .

[Bram]

What Bram neglected to notice is i also altered the mana base by -1 underground sea +1 island, i also took out some cards and replaced them, though i believe most of them where stated in the post itself.

That's true, I didn't see that. That's what you get when you misuse the quote option. If your list is new, don't quote it. If there's only minimal differences, use the...

-1 Necropotence
+1 Phyrexian Arena

...notation.

Thanks.

[silvernail]

eh it was a mere technicality Bram, both of us could have done better.