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Author Topic: couple questions on stuff im not sure on  (Read 1399 times)
Juggernaut GO
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« on: November 22, 2005, 04:52:21 am »

ok number 1, decree of justice, I declare cycle paying 2W
opponant passes priority back, I decide to draw my card, then pay 8 to make 8 soldiers.  Now, opponent cast cunning wish for stifle then stifles the cycling.   Does drawing the card, or paying the X mana to make soldiers pass priority where opponent can respond, or can he only respond to the initial declaration of cycling the card.  I haven't played with decree in a long time so I'm not sure if I was right or not.

stupid type 1 question:

I have sphere of resistance in play, and tinker in hand.  3 mana available.  Can you announce tinker, sacrifice the sphere as part of casting cost then pay the 3 mana for tinker.  Or, is the sphere seen as in play when the spell was announced and I have to pay 1 additional mana regardless.


another stupid type 1 question

opponant has goblin charlbelcher in play and lions eye diamond.  I have active welder.    opponant sacrifices LED and discards his hand.  Can I respond to the trigger of discarding his hand with the golbin welder by welding out his goblin charlbelcher for an artifact that was discarded this way before  LED gives him the 3 mana to activate the belcher?
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Khahan
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« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2005, 10:16:29 am »

ok number 1, decree of justice, I declare cycle paying 2W

Right, and this triggers an ability that will allow you to pay mana and put tokens into play. The stack looks like this:
{pay X to put X tokens into play}
{draw a card}

Quote
opponant passes priority back, I decide to draw my card, then pay 8 to make 8 soldiers.

First you make the decision to pay (8) and make 8 soldiers. This is a seperate ability from drawing a card. So if you and your opponent both pass priority, the top item resolves, you pay 8 and put 8 tokens into play and the stack is now:

{draw a card}

 
Quote
Now, opponent cast cunning wish for stifle then stifles the cycling.   Does drawing the card, or paying the X mana to make soldiers pass priority where opponent can respond, or can he only respond to the initial declaration of cycling the card.  I haven't played with decree in a long time so I'm not sure if I was right or not.

None of that passes priority. Again, when you announce cycling decree, this puts the draw a card ability on the stack and triggers the 'make tokens' ability. Before you receive priority again, the 'make tokens' ability is added to the stack.  Now, you pass priority and your opponent gains it. He may now respond to the tokens trigger. If that resolves, you pass priority and he may now respond to the draw card trigger.  He will get at least 2 opportunities to play spells before you complete cycling.



Quote
I have sphere of resistance in play, and tinker in hand.  3 mana available.  Can you announce tinker, sacrifice the sphere as part of casting cost then pay the 3 mana for tinker.  Or, is the sphere seen as in play when the spell was announced and I have to pay 1 additional mana regardless.

I had thought you could sac the sphere in order to avoid paying its cost, but it appears you cannot.  According to rule 409 (playing spells and abilities), you announce the spell and place it on the stack. You then choose modes and name targets. Next you determine the total cost and lock it in. At this point, the sphere is still in play.

Next, you pay all costs which includes sacrificing the artifact. So by the time the sphere leaves play, its effect has already been applied.

Quote
another stupid type 1 question

opponant has goblin charlbelcher in play and lions eye diamond.  I have active welder.    opponant sacrifices LED and discards his hand.  Can I respond to the trigger of discarding his hand

Discarding your hand is part of the activation cost of LED. There is no trigger to respond to.

 
Quote
with the golbin welder by welding out his goblin charlbelcher for an artifact that was discarded this way before  LED gives him the 3 mana to activate the belcher?

Only if your opponent is not the brightest bulb in the bunch.

He has priority and activates the LED. This is a mana ability and does not use the stack so you cannot respond to it. He then announces that he is going to activate the charbelcher and passes priority. This is now your first chance to play spells or abilities.

But even if he took the mana and then passed priority to you, you are better off just passing it back. The stack should be empty and since both players passed you move the next phase and he burns for 3.  Very Happy

If you don't pass priority and activate the welder, he can always then activate the belcher in response to the welder. Basically, you'd have to playing vs my 4 year old who's never played the game before in order for this to work.

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Gabethebabe
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« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2005, 06:35:32 am »

For the Tinker question: the following rule addresses it quite exactly:

409.1h The player pays the total cost in any order. Partial payments are not allowed.
Example: You play Death Bomb, which costs {3}{B} and has an additional cost of sacrificing a creature. You sacrifice Thunderscape Familiar, whose effect makes your black spells cost {1} less to play. Because a spell’s total cost is “locked in� before payments are actually made, you pay {2}{B}, not {3}{B}, even though you’re sacrificing the Familiar.
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Lunar
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« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2005, 11:40:37 am »

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Discarding your hand is part of the activation cost of LED. There is no trigger to respond to.

This is somewhat related to the issue at hand so ill post this question here...

I had previously been told by some people that LED was treated somewhat differently than other artifact mana sources and that you CAN respond to it (something about LED actually being handled like an instant rather than a mana source...). Since part of the activated ability is discarding the hand, this (as explained to me by a judge, go figure) means that since the activation cost is discarding, those cards should be in the yard to weld or whatever in response.

As this was explained then that means that in response to sacraficing the LED and discarding, you can weld out something like belcher BEFORE the mana ability resolves...

This does seem more far fetched NOW that I type it out, heh, but this was how it was explained to me once at a tourney (It was in the middle of stopping the judge from making a fatal error already, heh, so I guess I should handle that judge with a grain of salt...he was trying to let some guy play echoing truth from his hand with LED mana at the time...my teammate was about to win with severance belcher and the dude playing dragon tried stopping it I guess...I yelped when the judge was actually going to allow it.)

So my question is...

IS led's ability something you can respond to (which would make it different from something like tapping mox pearl for mana?)

IF so, then wouldnt you actually be able to respond in the manner JuggernaughtGo asked....

Yes I know this goes against what was just said, and I am pretty sure that khahan is correct here, but I wanted some more confirmation.

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Limbo
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« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2005, 12:06:59 pm »

Quote
406.4. A mana ability can be activated or triggered. Mana abilities are played and resolved like other abilities, but they don’t go on the stack, so they can’t be countered or responded to. See rule 411, “Playing Mana Abilities,� and rule 408.2, “Actions That Don’t Use the Stack.�

What the "Can only be used if you could play an instant" part of LED does is make sure you cannot pay a spell in your hand by announcing the spell, THEN activating LED. If you activate LED, it does not use the stack, so your opponent cannot weld out the Belcher, as your opponent never receives priority at that point. Then you can activate belcher, and your opponents welder will have no use in preventing his masters impending doom.
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The Atog Lord
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« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2005, 12:13:15 pm »

Lion's Eye Diamond's ability doesn't actually use the stack. Although there are restrictions on when it can be used, it itself is a mana ability, like a Llanowar Elf has.
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Lunar
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« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2005, 09:07:25 pm »

Cool, sounds good and its as I originally thought (damn bad judges sometimes man...at least the incident in question was resolved properly and my teammate won the match, heh)
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