Savannah Lions? In Type One? What the…

[Klep]

Both cards progress a specific tempo based game plan, however in a very different manner.

In that manner both cards are similar to Chalice and Wasteland.  "They progress your tempo" is a very broad thing to say about cards in a deck which is entirely geared around tempo, so saying this with regards to Fish doesn't actually mean a whole lot.  As Fish is as a whole designed to generate tempo of its own and stall the opponent's tempo, it's far more important to look at cards with a finer grain and examine how they accomplish this goal.  In this more precise, more relevant sense, Aether Vial and Null Rod work very differently, and directly comparing them is folly.

[The Atog Lord]

When I see a Null Rod drop,  I know that I'd better have an answer for it, either in the form of a counter or in the form of a removal spell. While it is in play, nine of my twenty-five mana sources don't work, and neither do three of my large artifacts. Jester's Cap combined wtih multiple Stone-Rains in one convenient package, Null Rod makes winning very difficult for the opposing Drain deck.

Now, compare that with Aether Vial. Vial alone does nothing. In conjunction with a bear, it can serve as a slightly better Sol Ring after charging for two turns. The fact that it isn't a spell means that I can't counter the bears it drops; yet, even so, most of the time, against a deck like this, I'd rather save my counters for something like Null Rod anyways.

So, Null Rod and Aether Vial may be tempo cards, but one is the most disruptive card in the format while the other is nothing more than a mana genertor. One says, "let's see if your deck can beat my bears" while the other says, "Oops. Your deck doesn't work at all."

[Liek]

People are having a hard time understanding Aether Vial's role.

Aether Vial allows the deck to function. It ensures that Wasteland won't have to tap for mana to cast Null Rods. It ensures that Mishra's Factory will attack every turn it's able. It ensures that your disruptive creatures will not only resolve, but come into play at perfect timing. It ensures that you won't lose when your opponent takes out all of your colored mana with Wastelands.

Aether Vial is good to have against every deck in the format. Instant speed free creatures are always good. However, Null Rod is not good against every deck. It is not good against Oath, or Stax (one of the Stax decks plays Null Rod!,) or any other Shop deck, or Goblins, or the Fish mirror, or Dragon. Sure, it's very strong against 2-Land Belcher, and if it doesn't get Mana Drained, it's ok against Drain decks. Aether Vial is always good, Null Rod is sometimes good.

I don't consider Aether Vial to be a "tempo" card. I consider it to be my primary mana generator. The same as a Drain deck considers its Mana Drains, the same as a Shop deck considers its Mishra's Workshops, the same as Ritual decks used to consider thier Dark Rituals.

Maybe I'm wrong, but the sucess I've had can't be a fluke.

[dicemanx]

Aether Vial is good to have against every deck in the format. Instant speed free creatures are always good. However, Null Rod is not good against every deck.

This isn't the point. Arguably the most important factor in *this* specific case is the strength of a particular card as opposed to its versatility. I will echo TAG's sentiments and say that Null Rod poses a significant threat to quite a few of the top archetypes, while Vial, as good as it is, still pales in comparison.

Of course if you are facing nothing but Fish and FCG all day (and Stax to some extent) then the choice of Vial over Null Rod makes sense (unless the opposing decks are running Null Rods, in which case the two cards negate each other). But in environments with lots of Gifts, CS, and fast combo it's not even close.

Not to put down your accomplishments, but you are yet *another* Fish player who has enjoyed success and believes (or at least has team-mates that believe) that he is in possession of the definitive Fish build. I could say the same thing of OFM, the much maligned Canadian build that seems to kick ass in the States and back home precisely on the strength of Null Rod and certain unorthodox card choices.

[Vegeta2711]

Aether Vial is good to have against every deck in the format. Instant speed free creatures are always good. However, Null Rod is not good against every deck. It is not good against Oath, or Stax (one of the Stax decks plays Null Rod!,) or any other Shop deck, or Goblins, or the Fish mirror, or Dragon. Sure, it's very strong against 2-Land Belcher, and if it doesn't get Mana Drained, it's ok against Drain decks. Aether Vial is always good, Null Rod is sometimes good.

Aether Vial is crap against combo. A card that doesn't actually do anything until turn 3 isn't really good against Grim Long, Belcher or Dragon. And saying Vial is good against Goblins while Null Rod sucks there is pointless. You're going to get smashed by the little red men either way.

I love Vial, but it sure as hell isn't as godlike as you make it sound.

Maybe I'm wrong, but the sucess I've had can't be a fluke.

Yeah it's not like OFM or Kird's deck has done anything...  oh wait.  :lol:

[Mantis]

A thing that must be pointed out, is the great difference we see in lists running either Aether Vial or Null Rod. The manacurve of either decks is very different. The Savannah Lions deck runs a lot of 1cc drops, while Vial Fish runs a lot more 2 drops. The purpose of the decks are entirely different as well. Savannah Lions focusing on speed and the Null Rod + Kataki + Waste + Chalice, give them the time they need to finish the opponent off. Vial Fish focusing on getting a firm grip on the game through cardadvantage Ninja/Standstill and control (Voidmage Prodigy).

I think the point of focus is not to decide what deck is best, but what deck is best in a Drain heavy metagame, and what deck is best in a Shopheavy metagame, perhaps we could even throw aggrocontrol in the equation.
We can not deny that both given decks, are just really innovative, so I would plead for the stop of this useless fighting what deck is best.

Mantis

[bebe]

There were very sound reasons for the inclusion of Null Rod in all the early fish builds. Those reasons are as valid today as they were then. We are calling any aggro control deck with standstill fish. This is a misnomer as they are clearly not - eel sligh was not fish and neither are these decks. They are an evolution of aggro-control which rely on tempo and card advantage to win. The canadian build does this very well. But lets get back to discussing the deck at hand.

Savannah Lions is quite different in its approach. It scary to see a deck that utilizes so little draw and relies so heavily on top decking its solutions and threats. However, the deck is very redundant. Much like some G/w decks it knows it will draw into relevant threats and open with a solid  hand. The deck actually reminds me alot of G/w builds that played Savannahs, StPs, Root Mazes and Rods. I've often felt it was overlooked and this build just extends the premise. I playerd G/w to a number of nice finishes before abandoning the deck before Oath and FCG re-emerged as commonly played decks.

[orgcandman]

In a straight up fight between MDW's and TMWA, I do believe that Mountain would have a serious advantage, but since Ravnica became legal, it's, for the most part, a moot point. Suppression Field and to a lesser extent,Darkblast, eats TMWA alive. It was a major force in the New Hampshire part of the New England Meta for 3-4 months. Then, Ravnica was released, and the deck almost totally disappeared from our Meta. It literally disappeared in one day. Waterbury day one had somewhere between 4-7 copys of the deck. Day two, I didn't see a single TMWA decklist ( and I was helping Ray day 2, and amoungst the things I was helping him with was Sorting decklists. And the major differance between day one and day two? Ravnica was legal.

More to the point, there is alot of similarity's between the two decks, but unlike Mountain, it doesn't get eaten alive by an enchantment. Oh ya, and it's got blue, which naturally makes it sexier. This deck certainly does look like a contender, but i think It suffers from rather major flaw. It doesn't go Broken like Stax, Gifts, Oath and the others, and the best Vintage players like decks that can suddenly blow their opponets out of the water. Using a Chess personality analology, our better players are Tal, and this is a deck for players like Karpov, which we, as a whole, are sadly short off.

Actually, TMWA only disappeared because those of us playing it haven't been to many tournaments in a while. You must not have been looking very hard on day two of waterbury because I know of at least 1 TMWA deck playing, and there were at least 2 decks running red genju (ray commented on how he could die after having seen two genju face off at the top tables during round 3).

TMWA beats suppression field by the 4 disenchants main. It's 2/1's and 1/1s will beat down regardless of field, and since this deck is just a bunch of 1 and 2 toughness creatures, we'll trade up while I'm magma jetting my way into a disenchant with blast backup. Then, once I DO get to disenchant I switch from beating down for something awful like  3 a turn, to something insane like 8 a turn. Field is a really minor speedbump.

Darkblast is a much more scary threat than field, and even that, we have 3 crypts main for when one of our dudes gets burned out.

Honestly, just looking at it on paper (but I WILL do some real-world testing when I get a chance) makes me think this matchup is very much in favor of TMWA due to the sheer number of solutions that TMWA packs, vs. how this deck can answer.

Note that these two decks are VERY similar, and for somone who is going to eventually want to play a drain based archetype, I would steer them towards this deck, as it includes the duals, fetches, forces, and relevant power.