Limbo
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« on: December 05, 2005, 03:03:07 pm » |
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Todays card of the day at wizards.com is Talruum Champion and it made me realize that it got fucked by the new double strike mechanic. So I would like to propose a card to fix it:
Talruum Elite
2RR
First strike
Whenever ~this~ blocks or becomes blocked by a creature, that creature loses first strike and double strike until end of turn.
4/2
Surprise!
I messed a bit with the power toughness ratio, since critters got a lot better since mirage...
Current wording:
Talruum Elite
Creature -- Minotaur
2RR
First strike
Whenever ~this~ blocks or becomes blocked by a creature, that creature loses first strike and double strike until end of turn.
4/2
"Their swords are the least of your worries."
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« Last Edit: December 19, 2005, 02:09:21 pm by Limbo »
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Limbo
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« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2005, 05:22:08 pm » |
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Any ideas? Or is it considered ok as is?
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Nazdakka
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« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2005, 06:20:33 pm » |
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Any ideas? Or is it considered ok as is?
Absolutely fine as is, I think. This guy is really quite strong for limited, but if we make him an uncommon that shouldn't be an issue. |
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Matt
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« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2005, 02:07:38 am » |
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This is a pretty bomby guy. It's going to be almost impossible to kill this guy in combat.
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Jacob Orlove
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« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2005, 04:15:03 am » |
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This is a pretty bomby guy. It's going to be almost impossible to kill this guy in combat.
Anything 2/5 or bigger does it, though. |
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Fall-Titan
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« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2005, 04:33:09 am » |
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Agreed, i think its fine, double red is good and while he does have first strike, his butt is on a measly 2, meaning burn, a 2/5, or some weak -/- effect puts him in the yard. Besides every limited set needs a few uncommon bombs.
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Limbo
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« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2005, 07:16:32 am » |
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Ok, so the basics are ok. The name fits it nicely I think, creature type should be minotaur. Flavourtext is a rip-of from the flavour on talruum champion. Is it ok, or should we change it to something cooler? |
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Jacob Orlove
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« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2005, 07:19:33 am » |
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Better flavor text would be good.
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Team Meandeck: O Lord,
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Mind_under_Matter
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« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2005, 12:20:21 pm » |
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"His horns are longer than than any sword."
My offering for flavor text. Not flashy, but works well with the mechanic
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So in conclusion, creatures are bad. Play blue cards instead.
-Dr. Sylvan
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combo_dude
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« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2005, 04:34:33 pm » |
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I think that this is too good in Limited - 3/2 would fix all my issues with the card. It might be a little weak, but we can deal with that. I don't like the "every set needs uncommon bombs" argument, as we tend to apply that to most of the cards invented here...just a thought.
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asmoranomardicodais
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« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2005, 12:25:17 am » |
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I'll second that, its just that this guy is SO hard to kill in combat, the opponent might be hard pressed to throw three or four creztures in front of this one guy just to stop this.
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Anusien
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« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2005, 01:28:37 am » |
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He's very, very good. The only cards this good at a similar cost that come to mind are Fumiko the Lowblood (albiet a small sample), although 2RR has also turned over Viashano Fangtail at a slightly lower power level. I'd like to drop it slightly, but I can't think of an appropriate way to.
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Magic Level 3 Judge Southern USA Regional Coordinator The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule. |
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Mind_under_Matter
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« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2005, 06:57:25 am » |
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The easiest way to weaken the card a little without largely altering the flavor would be to bump the cost to 4R. I'm not sure if this really needs to happen, because in all reality, we've been given plenty of answers to this in recent sets, Carven Caryatid, Scatter the Seeds, etc...
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So in conclusion, creatures are bad. Play blue cards instead.
-Dr. Sylvan
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Ephraim
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« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2005, 09:17:09 am » |
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Scatter the Seeds doesn't answer this, though. It just provides you with a handful of chump blockers. You're back to square one three turns later. You'd need to block this with six saproling tokens to kill it and you'd lose four of them in the process. What I really don't like about this card is that although the thread is entitled, "Fixing Talruum Champion," it may as well be entitled "Making Talruum Champion Better." This card costs less than Champion, still has first strike, has nominally better numbers, and does more, since it hits both first strike and double strike. Maybe if it didn't have first strike itself, then it would be a little bit more interesting. It would still trade with a lot of stuff, but it would make creatures with first strike and double strike a lot worse. In that case, it might even make the card better if it were a 3/3, since then it might survive to kill more than one creature with double strike or first strike.
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Jacob Orlove
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« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2005, 09:30:33 am » |
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To be fair, Talruum Champion is really bad. I think this is fine as-is (4/2 for 2RR).
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Team Meandeck: O Lord,
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Ephraim
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« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2005, 09:53:22 am » |
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I disagree. If Cardkingdom.com is accurate, there are only forty cards in the entire game that have 4 or more power and first strike (or could have first strike). Of those, the only three that cost four mana or less are Pit Raptor, Kezzerdrix, and Wall of Razors. I think that this would still be undercosted if it didn't hose first strike and double strike.
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Did you know that Red is the color or art and music and passion? Combine that with Green, the color of nature, spiritualism, and community and you get a hippie commune of drum circles, dreamcatchers, and recreational drug use. Let's see that win a Pro Tour.
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Jacob Orlove
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« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2005, 10:05:21 am » |
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Wall of Razors is also the only 4+ power First Striker with a toughness less than 3. As a 4/2, this guy is immensely vulnerable to removal of all kinds, which balances out his power in combat.
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Team Meandeck: O Lord,
Guard my tongue from evil and my lips from speaking guile.
To those who slander me, let me give no heed.
May my soul be humble and forgiving to all.
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Matt
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« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2005, 12:19:13 pm » |
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Lower the P/T to 4/1 and I'll be happy. That means he's vulnerable to small red removal like Spark Spray or Sparkmage Apprentice. It also means that you only have to lose a couple guys to gang-block him, not get Wrathed.
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http://www.goodgamery.com/pmo/c025.GIF---------------------- SpenceForHire2k7: Its unessisary SpenceForHire2k7: only spelled right SpenceForHire2k7: <= world english teach evar ---------------------- noitcelfeRmaeT {Team Hindsight}
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Limbo
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« Reply #18 on: December 12, 2005, 02:20:28 pm » |
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Ok, I am willing to go to a 4/1, but decreasing power is not an option in my opinion. Critters have become better the last couple of years (which is a good thing!), and if you use talruum champion as a benchmark, that is just a plain bad card, as stated by Jacob already.
So do we go for good (4/1), or very good (4/2)? I prefer 4/2, but I can live with 4/1. Remember this is vulnarable to a lot of removal, and protection tricks also wreck this one.
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Without magic, life would be a mistake - Friedrich Nietzsche Chuck would ask Chuck how a woodchuck would chuck wood... as fast as this. |
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Nazdakka
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« Reply #19 on: December 12, 2005, 02:43:50 pm » |
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So do we go for good (4/1), or very good (4/2)? I prefer 4/2, but I can live with 4/1. Remember this is vulnarable to a lot of removal, and protection tricks also wreck this one.
4/2. He already dies to a huge majority of removal spells and most combat tricks, plus he can get endlessly blocked by anything with 5+ toughness. Even if you can't deal with this guy immediately, in limited you'll often be able to absorb 2 hits from this guy without hardship, plus it would be perfectly possible to race this guy by chump-blocking and hitting back with evasion creatures. Without evasion, creatures are only capable of so much. Look at Hunted Troll for a more extreme case - 4 mana gets you a gigantic regenerator, but because he lacks evasion and brings along his own chump blockers, he's unplayable. |
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Nazdakka Arcbound Ravager is MY Fairy Godmother! Check out Battle of the Sets - Group 1&2 results now up! |
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Anusien
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« Reply #20 on: December 12, 2005, 07:34:28 pm » |
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4/2. He already dies to a huge majority of removal spells and most combat tricks, plus he can get endlessly blocked by anything with 5+ toughness. Even if you can't deal with this guy immediately, in limited you'll often be able to absorb 2 hits from this guy without hardship, plus it would be perfectly possible to race this guy by chump-blocking and hitting back with evasion creatures. Without evasion, creatures are only capable of so much. How many creatures get played with 5+ toughness? With all likelihood, this guy will own the ground and come across for 4 every turn. The real issue is his ability to suck down a Bolt and die. |
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Magic Level 3 Judge Southern USA Regional Coordinator The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule. |
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Buttons
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« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2005, 08:32:13 am » |
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This card is a first pick in Limited, EASY. 3RR uncommon and he's fine.
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Limbo
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« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2005, 02:09:49 pm » |
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I slapped on a flavour text. Any other suggestions, or is it fine now?
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Without magic, life would be a mistake - Friedrich Nietzsche Chuck would ask Chuck how a woodchuck would chuck wood... as fast as this. |
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Limbo
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« Reply #23 on: December 23, 2005, 02:11:08 pm » |
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Ok, 24 hour clock time.
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Without magic, life would be a mistake - Friedrich Nietzsche Chuck would ask Chuck how a woodchuck would chuck wood... as fast as this. |
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asmoranomardicodais
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« Reply #24 on: December 23, 2005, 04:25:47 pm » |
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Wasn't there a call for this to cost 3RR? Either that, or make it a 3/2, or 4/1, or something? I'm not sure all that got completely resolved.
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Limbo
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« Reply #25 on: December 24, 2005, 04:56:37 am » |
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There was indeed some discussion, but the conclusion seemed to be that it is fine at 4/2 if in an uncommon slot. Its a minotaur, not some broken creature type like Goblin or Lammasu or something...
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Without magic, life would be a mistake - Friedrich Nietzsche Chuck would ask Chuck how a woodchuck would chuck wood... as fast as this. |
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Machinus
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« Reply #26 on: December 24, 2005, 04:15:57 pm » |
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I think it's fine the way it is.
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T1: Arsenal
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Jacob Orlove
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« Reply #27 on: January 03, 2006, 12:28:34 am » |
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This is much more of a Spiritmonger than a FTK.
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Team Meandeck: O Lord,
Guard my tongue from evil and my lips from speaking guile.
To those who slander me, let me give no heed.
May my soul be humble and forgiving to all.
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