UB Fish - Some deck Suggestions please

[Harlequin]

Heres my list
Land 20 / mana artifacts 3
4 Underground sea
2 Polluted delts
2 Flooded strand
1 watery grave
1 Island
1 Lib of Alexandria
4 Waste lands
1 strip
4 Mish Factory
1 lotus
2 mox

Creatures 15
4 Dark Confidant
4 Flying men
4 Spiketail Hatchling
2 Ninja of Deep hour
1 Skull snatcher

Other stuff 23
4 force of will
4 Duress
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Annul* or Disrupt

3 Null Rod
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 vamp tutor
1 mystical
1 Ancestral Recall
1 darkblast
1 echoing truth
1 rushing river

--Side Board
4 Energy Flux
3 Disrupt* or Annul  3 Chains of Meph!
2 Psychatogs
1 null rod (4 total)
2 darkblast (3 total)
1 crucible of worlds (2 total)
2 Skull snatchers (3 total)

Deck History:
I have not played this exact deck at any tourneys yet.  My MWS win rate is very high (but that is hardly a competative place).
I took a version of this deck to waterbury day 2.  MD was very similar (no tutors, no darkblast), but I had a bad SB (only 2 Flux). It went 3-0, then lost 3 in a row (all to shop decks ... again poorly built SB) to go 3-3 before I had to head home.
Comments:
In general I find the deck to be very mana dependant.  I usually chose low mana cost solutions over high mana cost ones.  For example I think Withered wretch slows this deck too much, so I opted for the awsome 1 Black mana power of Skull snatchers.  Also I run the 1 mana tutors but no DT. 
I'm not sure what im trying to accomplish on the sideboard with darkblast and tog, but It has proven to be an effective sideboard against any other fish deck.  It also dramatically speeds my game if I need to win quickly (say against pure combo)  So A typical side would include Togs, darkblast, and Crucible in... for some weaker creatures and possibly some bounce out.
The draw engine in this deck is remarkable.  Dark confidant adds a type of card advantage that curiosity can't touch.  coupled with a few ninja's and thats stability.  Now add just a splash of LoA, and thats just brokenness.  I think of any deck, this deck abuses LoA more than any other deck.  I generally think that LoA is only so good of a card, but for THIS deck, it really wins games.

Lastly I would not run this deck with vial, jitte, or top + tinker->DSC ... I just think Null Rod is better.  Call it personal preferance or foolish stuborness, I know im going to be playing with null rod.  So I'll warn you now, any suggestions to that effect will fall on deaf ears.

Here are my questions  in no particular order:
#1: Is the mana structure stable?   In play testing I found that sometimes my mana situation was "lacking"
#2: Spiketail hatchlings??  I think they are good, they make my opponent play slower... but are they worth it, and do they fit the tempo of this deck?  Would a 2/x beater be better?  cloud of faries maybe? how about Shadowmage Inflitrator?
#3: Is Fish playable without standstill?  If I need standstill, where can I fit it? If I dont, should I cut mishrah's factory for more colored land?
#4: does chalice have a place on the side?  I have not tested this yet. How many, and in place of what?
#5: Should i main deck Chains of Meph?
#6: Is SB tog a crazy idea? or does "crazy" sometimes work...  People clearly will not side in Tormods and stuff against me game 2 and I think most ppl would side out pithing needles game 2.  Can I get away with it?
#6 b: If I do stick to tog, should I squeeze 1 gush in somewhere (MD or Side)?  Hard to beat 6 damage for 0 mana.
#7: Is Skull Snatcher a crazy idea? Should I stick to the tried and true, but mana hungery, Withered wretch?
#8: 61 cards!? foolish?


Well Thats it I guess.  Thank you in advance for you imput

[Wikoogle]

Here's what's currently being considered in Legacy, you could take a page from them...

CREATURES (15)
4 Dimir Cutpurse
4 Hypnotic Specter
2 Ninja of the Deep Hours
1 Psychatog
4 Shadowmage Infiltrator

SPELLS (23)
4 Aether Vial
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress
4 Force of Will
4 Standstill
3 Umezawa's Jitte

LANDS (22)
4 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
2 Wasteland
4 Watery Grave

Ofcourse, to make it Vintage worthy, you'll need to add the following cards...

3 chains of mephistopheles
4 Dark Confidant
1 Lib of Alexandria
4 Waste lands
1 strip
4 Mish Factory
1 lotus
2 mox
3 Null Rod
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 vamp tutor
1 mystical
1 imperial seal
1 demonic tutor
1 personal tutor
1 tinker
1 dsc
4 Spiketail Hatchling
4 sinkhole
Negator
Daze
Withered Wretch
Mesmeric Fiend
Misdirection

---------------------------------------------------------

sorry, i posted this elsewhere not realizing it's better posted here...

black has a bunch of awesome utility creatures(withered wretch), the best card drawing creature ever made, and some other goodies from ravinca.

it also has some great fatties like phyrexian negator that are perfect in this environment where most of the creatures are welders and burn isn't anywhere to be found.

also duress is awesome

and if you include the tinker, dsc minicombo to deal with aggro and randomness, black will give you three great tutors to get it out consistently.

i think that would all make the deck much more competitive.

--------------------------------------

basically, take a standard b/w fish decklist, take out the white and add in the above cards. add in tinker and black tutors to deal with randomness. and you should have a strong deck.

[pyr0ma5ta]

Tinker is patently awful.  What artifacts will you pitch?  Moxes?  Null Rod?  Chalice?  Moxes are mana sources in an already mana-light deck, and Rods/Chalices are amazing threats that win the game on their own.  I'm pretty sure that you don't want Tinker.  Ancestral Recall and Time walk, however, are amazing in fish.

[Deception101]

I like the idea of withered wretch personally but i do understand about the mana .  Its an amazing card even though the BB cost can be slightly painful.  When so many decks run welder and Dragon depends on its graveyard so much why not ruin them in response?  also with decks out there that can just go "yawg-will....win?" why not ruin their fun? you could even take out the skullsnatcher for the wretch, granted you get rid of "sneakiness"..sadly..

I also agree with Pyr0ma5ta about the tinker.  to sacrafice anything that you have in play is just too useful for the deck. 

Duress: awesome card, it can be the bane of combo's existence or bait a control player.  its good to play and its only problem comes when played against aggro decks. The fact you have the choice of the card makes it amazing for first turn shinanigans!

also, ever thought about Daze? i know annul is awesome in most environments but also being able to play a free counter is fun. again just suggestions.

question: do your ever use the kicker with rushing river? its great i know but when the deck seems so mana dependent is it ever used to its full potential?

to answer some of the questions:  i love the hatchlings because they fly, and they can slow down players.  I think they are better than most other choices, granted i do love the idea of putting Finkel in..mmmhmm shadowman

i don't think the deck needs standstill, it seems that with ninjas, LoA and Bob Confidant you have the draw you need.

the tog is funny and amazing, i'm a weird/crazy player and love the idea i bow down to your ingenuity! no one will see it coming...transformational SB anyone!? i like it

wow i was just thinking about gush as i read that question, ya..i personally feel that you could put the gush in for the rushing river, just cuz who can say no to draw cards for pretty much free?

61 cards can sometimes be bad, but here's my question...what could you really take out without feeling like your missing something?

also.. no Faerie Conclave? 2/1 flyer..ya it costs more but its pretty delicious

aight well hope this helps somewhat

~peace~

[Wikoogle]

the tinker dsc is actually quite solid in fish.

fish can lock your opponent down pretty consistently. the problem is that it takes too long to win.

it also loses to random aggro/newb decks - all those people that come into a vintage tourney with their legacy or extended decks, proxying in a few pieces of power.

dsc addresses both problems. and now that you have black and it's 3 awesome tutors (as well as necro), you can find it consistently enough that it's well worth playing.

if not tinker, atleast jitte should be run. it addresses those problems as well and even standard fish uses it. this deck has more use for it since it can be tutored out, can gain back life lost by confidant etc.

but yeah, you actually have a good reason for not wanting to run jitte. you have no reason not to run tinker though.

Also, I think Cabal Therapy is overkill as is Echoing Truth, Rushing River and Darkblast (there's a reason standard fish doesn't run any bounce) and Daze is a lot better than Annul (it can stop opposing Welders and counterspells and such too).

Also, a main advantage of Flying Men is curiosity.

Some of your other card choices seem a bit awkward as well.

Sinkhole is AWESOME with your full set of Null Rod, Wastes and Spiketails. Mana denial can the main theme of your deck as you have enough ways to do it consistently.

you're off to a great start though.

[Adan]

I don't really understand some cardchoices like Hypnotic Specter.

In Iserlohn,a guy was playing U/B Fish and i went quite well(8th Place).

3 Null Rod
3 Dark Confidant
2 Darkblast (maindeck hate against mirrormatch)
1 Demonic Tutor
3 Duress
4 Mesmeric Fiend
3 Withered Wretch
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Rootwater Thief
4 Standstill
1 Stifle
1 Voidmage Prodigy
2 Shadow of Doubt
2 Psychatog
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
1 Swamp
4 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland

Should be 61 cards.

But still,i'm not very amazes by some cardchoices like the Psychatog or maindeck Darkblast.
Shadow of Doubt,i dunno...it only seems to be good against Gifts.

It stifles fetchlands and counters tutors and gifts and so on.But is cantrips...ah,whatever,i should test it myself.

And first,i exchanged the Psychatogs against Dimir Cutpurse,because i thought that guy is 2/2,draws cards an disturbes the opponent.but then i played Shadowmage Infiltrator over Curpurse,because the Evasion comes in handy and i could sac hin for Budde.

The thiefs seem to be quite slow,but because Gifts only got 2 winning conditions(Burning Wish and Colossus) it's not that bad.Against oath it quite funny,too. i saw a oath player which tuored his spirit of the night to hardcast him,because the thief would take him...it was funny

and 2 chain of vapor,well,i think it is not enough.3 should do well and you really need an alternative for StoP.

[Whatever Works]

Here is my current UB fish list. I have ALOT of success with this archtype splitting first place of day 2 of the last waterbury with UB fish.

Few comments:

Vial is amazing in this deck... WIthout it, the deck is not playable... Jitte wins games vs. everything, and can be used to help vs. combo/oath/fish/welder/anything.

// Lands
    1  Flooded Strand
    1  Strip Mine
    1  Island
    2  Swamp
    2  Wasteland
    3  Underground Sea
    3  Polluted Delta
    4  Mishra's Factory (4)

// Creatures
    2  Rootwater Thief
    3  Withered Wretch
    3  Dimir Cutpurse
    4  Mesmeric Fiend
    4  Dark Confidant

// Spells
    1  Time Walk
    1  Ancestral Recall
    1  Chain of Vapor
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Vampiric Tutor
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Demonic Tutor
    2  In the Eye of Chaos
    2  Cabal Therapy
    2  Chains of Mephistopheles
    2  Umezawa's Jitte
    3  Standstill
    4  Duress
    4  AEther Vial

Null rod just isnt very impressive in fish when decks like stax can run it affectively, and when most decks run 5+ basic lands...

The deck has good matchups vs. several of the more common played decks in the format, but can struggle with the oath matchup. So obviously the board featured waterfront bouncers etc...

Kyle

[Juggernaut GO]

there is no force of will in that deck.  What did you say at Rochester after you scrubbed out with U/B fish:  I AM NEVER PLAYING THIS SHIT AGAIN!!!   don't make yourself a liar, this deck just blows in every way lol.

[pyr0ma5ta]

No fow in a fish deck?  That's just begging for it.

The only reasons that fish can survive are through early mana denial and the ability to force broken plays.  After wasting a land or two, forcing the big spell, and drawing a few extra cards through standstill, ninja, confidant, whatever, you might have a chance of winning.  But the fish concept is an underpowered deck that runs metagame answers to everything.  That metagame answer is fow, and not running it is a flat out mistake.

[Whatever Works]

there is no force of will in that deck.  What did you say at Rochester after you scrubbed out with U/B fish:  I AM NEVER PLAYING THIS SHIT AGAIN!!!   don't make yourself a liar, this deck just blows in every way lol.

My fish list is primarily black #1 So I cannot support FoW... Which also deals alot of damage with Confidant... Personally, I dont think UB fish is really that good (you know that obv JuggernautGo) However, every list I saw was horrible... While at least my list has put up good results... and 3-2 isnt complete scrub... Especially when opponents I lost to went turn 1 oath w/orchard both games... and/or first turn smokestack... which is rough...

[Tash]

Have any of you looked at the Southpaw fish list that took 11th place at SCG: Chicago?

http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/index.php?topic=25305.0

There's the thread about it. It's written by a friend of mine Mike Shean.

And as for shadow of a doubt, it just doesn't seem that good. It's a situational counterspell/stifle. It's not too hot in my mind. But that's just me.