Goblin's place in Vintage

[Vegeta2711]

In this day and age, Red Elemental Blast needs to be main. Food Chain shouldn't be an option, though, as comboing out is amazing beyond reason. My teammate successfully piloted his FCG to 9th place at the last Star City Chicago (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=14161- careful though, it looks like Star City messed up his deck entry... They put his sideboard maindeck AND sided... So if you see it in the sideboard, it doesn't belong in the deck... Unless we can all start playing 8x Chalice, Pillar, and others  )

This deck is all he plays and he consistantly puts up good results. He's currently made space for Shattering Spree (duh) and Emerald Charm for a better match against Oath.

Emerald Charm pretty much sucks. You get a very narrow answer vs. Oath that sucks against just about every other deck and isn't even that good in the Oath match.

Comboing out is cool and all, but the problem is having Food Chain takes up precious slots that can be used towards disruption which will be way more helpful than Food Chain in control matches. Since there's much less aggro to care about... well it means Food Chain isn't as important.

The thing is, having the Food Chains gives him such a better chance to just say "Oops... I win". Food Chain also makes for some AMAZING plays when tight on mana... You may say it's a big Drain target, but well... So is Ringleader. Lackey can't always make the deck work, but Food Chain fills that void.

And Ringleader is about 10x more important than Food Chain. Goody. One is worth risking as a Drain target and the other isn't. Not to mention Ringleader can be snuck out by Vial and Lackey.

[SonataOfTheCathedral]

People should probably try Rishadan Port. Everyone said it was slow in Legacy, it's awesome. The same mindset went through extended. It was one of the few ways it kept up with Desire a few extended seasons back. Dropped the vial and used the lands to good use and vialed dudes out eot.

Also a copy of Goblin Pyromancer is probably HUGE considering it makes all your dudes have lightning bolts on them.

I would probably cut down the Taiga count quite a lot and stick one basic Forest in for the purpose of just Artifact Mutation and nothing else from green. The Food Chains aren't really needed. If you focus your deck more the clock should almost always be about the same with or without the combo. You may slow the deck down by one turn but the reward is getting much more consistency.

[Lou]

People should probably try Rishadan Port. Everyone said it was slow in Legacy, it's awesome. The same mindset went through extended. It was one of the few ways it kept up with Desire a few extended seasons back. Dropped the vial and used the lands to good use and vialed dudes out eot.

Also a copy of Goblin Pyromancer is probably HUGE considering it makes all your dudes have lightning bolts on them.

I would probably cut down the Taiga count quite a lot and stick one basic Forest in for the purpose of just Artifact Mutation and nothing else from green. The Food Chains aren't really needed. If you focus your deck more the clock should almost always be about the same with or without the combo. You may slow the deck down by one turn but the reward is getting much more consistency.

Rishadon Port?  It is for sure to slow for Type 1.  I would love for my opponent to spend two resources every turn to tap down my island.  At best it is going to get a Shop or Academy, and with Academy, you can just tap it for mana in response.  Same with Shop, of course, but let's not assume that you are a retard and are going to be tapping the Shop during their main phase.  This idea, it is horrible.

[NicolaeAlmighty]

Here's the up to date list he played at Waterbury (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=15613)

Food Chain is what gives this deck the power to be more than simple aggro. Gobvantage has damn near nothing on Combo/ Colossus... Food Chain is always a must counter. If it doesn't do anything now and you let it resolve, you run the risk of the FCG player running you over later. A Matron turns into a Ringleader, which turns into who knows what...

I'm not saying that Gobvantage is a bad deck, nor am I saying that the tweaks suggested are bad. I'm just saying that Food Chain isn't as bad as you're making it out to be.

[MoxMonkey]

As a Drain player I let Food Chain Resolve unless I could use the drain mana.  I counter or find a way to kill Lackeys Warchiefs then Recruiters.  If I can deal with those FCG doesn't do anything explosive or crazy on me and I can sit on a tutor and get a big Yawgmoth's Will going.  I think dropping Food Chain for more Goblins / Mainboard hate would be the way to go especially in the metagame right now.  Even with the combo how many times have you out combo-ed TPS, Death long or Grim long?  It just doesn't happen.

[forests failed you]

I find this entire match up to be problematic.  As a slaver player, they can put you on a clock and force you to have to win now.  IF you can fine, if you can't its all over.  Lackey is a gigantic problem, as are cards like Gempalm incineratior.  as it can kill your welders without possibility for being countered.  If i suspect this deck to be in the metagame I usually end up packing BEBs.  Also, pytrite spellbomb plus welder tends to be good against this deck in general.

I think that FCG is an extremely powerful deck in the current metagame.  To be honest, if we could have put the cards together for Gencon Worlds;  Windfall and I both thought this would have been the best deck to play, and we both would have played it.

[piertoni]

As we are talking about FCG and Goblin in general I am going to ask your feelings about some cards I use in my FCG deck.

First of al:l 2 skullclamp proved to give a really good card advantage in a deck where most of the cards are 1-const creatures.
Incidentally Skullclamp (and better food chain itself) may be a 2-3 turn answer to a Oath-orchard drop where you sac creatures for cards or mana (obviously taking damage but not allowing your opponent to take a big man).

Second: a single copy of goblin welder to deal with colossus and to hate up your opponent.

Third: I want to spend a little time talking about what seems the worst machup: "Oath"
I have found Ensnaring Bridge a good card to stop my opponent and wait until I can attack with a big horde of goblins.
Usually Oath doesn't care much about artifacts compared to other decks as it can win simply comboing out.
Sure, Bridge can be countered, but if it stays bridge can really block Oath and give the FCG the tempo opportunity to win.



Piertoni

[RThomas]

You seem to neglect to remember that Skullclamp cannot rid you of creature on your endstep, when Oath will give you your Spirit tokens and end up making a big beater anyways.  When you're using Skullclamp just to keep Oath from getting its dudes out, they're winning the battle all the same, because you need creatures on the board to win in the first place.  And, when it really comes down to it, Skullclamp is not a card you want in your deck anyways, because it isn't a goblin or Food Chain.  It sucks to see it revealed off a Ringleader or anything like that.

Ensnaring Bridge is just clunky and slow.  To be honest, you won't see 3 mana until turn 3 rolls around most of the time.  And often times, that's just not quick enough.  This seems pretty comparable to Maze of Ith, and that was terrible also.  And again, it won't have much use outside the Oath matchup; while it certainly hits Colossusususus, those decks will have alternate routes to victory anyways.  Maze of Ith seems like a good catch-all for the spot, but Oath runs five free, non-blue answers to it. 

@general
Oath is just a terrible match, accept it and move on.

[piertoni]

I know that orchard can be used at EoT, We can say skullclamp can give you just one turn ES:

Oath player:
Orchard, mox, oath, pass

FcG player:
land, mox, skullclamp, equip spirit, 2 card

Or simply your opponent plays Oath without orchard and you sac your creatures to skullclamp if you don't want him to take a big man.

Food Chain itself can block your opponent 20 turns taking one damage every EoT.

Ensaring Brige is not so Slow, you can cast it when you have 2 life point and it will Stop your opponent, 3 colorless mana is not so much IMO

Piertoni

 

[UR]

I'm currently working on FCG and I can deal with most problems. I can handle Slaver, Stax and Oath isn't too bad. But it will never be 'tier 1' because it has some dramatic matches against pure combo decks (Dragon, Long, etc). Yes, there is some room in the board to deal with it, but you auto-lose game one and it is very hard to come back.

How do you people solve this? Does the Foodchain provide enough exlosiveness for you to have a chance, or do you just accept the bad match and move on?

Right now, I'm stuck on a more Legacy approach to the deck with Swords to Plowshares and Disenchant...

[unicoerner]

I play myself FCG and really don t get the point why Gobbovantage should be better.
With FCg fullpowered, you ahve a pretty good chance of winning 2nd round, with whoch you can really put pressure on a combo deck.
Also i think that playing 4 off- colour moxes weaken Gobbovantage, you really want red mana in this deck.
Instead of that i would play Wastelands, which seem great with Null Rods ( 5 Mox with it ?)
If someone can explain me how i load a mws list to internet i can post my list

[forests failed you]

call me kooky but we were going to board out food chains for goblin bombardments.

[Harlequin]

Even If your not splashing white I really think that Gobs needs Karakas.  Its just so good.. Here is the un-officaly Oracleated text on karakas

Karakas - Land
(lands are not spells - thank you mirrodin block for pointing this out)
T: add W to your mana pool... unless you play gobs, then add one colorless instead. Use this ability only if your opponent is not playing oath.
T: Make target oath player cry (you win target game if that player has oath of druids in play).
Flavor- "what now! where's your protection from lands!! How do you deal!"

-- Better than Maze of Ith
If this card is in your sideboard, you may wish you could play with a bigger sideboard to compensate for this waste of space.
0: Add 0 mana to your mana pool, and wish you could tap this for mana, you may play this ability as an interupt.
T: Target creature becomes a wall (and a very good wall at that)... This does not help you against multiple creatures.

[prometheus829]

I have a vague memory of goblins in block running goblin assassin to deal with akroma, but that seems less than fesable.

I would have to second the note about karakas and stp.  Although, against gifts, do you really want to bring in 4 stp?  Most gifts lists are running one or two win conditions that don't involve the tin man- you might even be better off with abayence or orim's chant.

[Harlequin]

I think most gob decks run a meaty supply of REB/PyroB on the side so you can "REB the unholy life" out of Gifts, with any luck they will never resolve a tinker g2 or 3.  But the actual win in oath more or less cannot be delt with by gob decks today.  So the need for crazy-ol-Karakas or STP is more about oath than gifts. That is why I like karakas, it cant be countered, it cant be misdirrected, it cant be duressed, and it is a 'more perminant' answer as opposed to a 'delay the game' type one (as per Maze of Ith or Ensnareing Bridge).

[jazzykat]

call me kooky but we were going to board out food chains for goblin bombardments.

I will call you genius actually. A red and a colorless is all you need. It doesn't really give you a quick kill and you also have to be careful they don't find their lotus and hardcast one of their beasties.

My solution for a quicker kill ...mishra's factories or some other man land (red CIPT ?).  Whether your mana base can handle off color land, or a land coming into play tapped is another story, but if you cut food chain altogether you probably don't need green/duals anymore and you have a more stable mana base to play around with.

One last idea and I know it has been addressed and I am pretty sure it is a no go  but I don't remember what the ruling is: pithing needle for oath?

[49 Cents]

I bet you mean Razia, which IS legendary..

[jubeininja69]

i need help against oath. 

i can't handle turn 2 akroma.

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[Hydra]

I will call you genius actually. A red and a colorless is all you need. It doesn't really give you a quick kill and you also have to be careful they don't find their lotus and hardcast one of their beasties.

My solution for a quicker kill ...mishra's factories or some other man land (red CIPT ?).  Whether your mana base can handle off color land, or a land coming into play tapped is another story, but if you cut food chain altogether you probably don't need green/duals anymore and you have a more stable mana base to play around with.

One last idea and I know it has been addressed and I am pretty sure it is a no go  but I don't remember what the ruling is: pithing needle for oath?

If you're looking for a quicker man-land type kill, why not Genju of the Spires?  He's a much faster clock than Factories.

[BruiZar]

Even If your not splashing white I really think that Gobs needs Karakas.  Its just so good.. Here is the un-officaly Oracleated text on karakas

Karakas - Land
(lands are not spells - thank you mirrodin block for pointing this out)
T: add W to your mana pool... unless you play gobs, then add one colorless instead. Use this ability only if your opponent is not playing oath.
T: Make target oath player cry (you win target game if that player has oath of druids in play).
Flavor- "what now! where's your protection from lands!! How do you deal!"

-- Better than Maze of Ith
If this card is in your sideboard, you may wish you could play with a bigger sideboard to compensate for this waste of space.
0: Add 0 mana to your mana pool, and wish you could tap this for mana, you may play this ability as an interupt.
T: Target creature becomes a wall (and a very good wall at that)... This does not help you against multiple creatures.

classic=]