Sensei's Divining Top vs. Soothsaying

[Harkius]

Hey, I have a question really quick.

I am aware that neither of these cards are run in Tier One decks with any real regularity. However, I am curious as to the inclusion of Sensei's Divining Top in some decks. I understand that the Top lets you draw cards and Soothsaying does not, but it seems to me that this is rather negligible since the Top itself basically draws you one card in the entire game (effectively allowing it to replace itself).

Is there something taht I am not seeing here? Yes, Top costs a colorless and is easier to pop into play. Soothsaying, though, allows you to use any excess mana at the end of any turn to stack your own deck. Plus, Soothsaying is not vulnerable to Welder (not saying it is a terrific advantage, since most people wouldn't bother with targeting a Top, but...still).

Thanks for the heads up.
Harkius

[Penguin]

Well what is your real question here?  You haven't clearly stated it but from what I can conclude, I think your asking which one is better and why?

Well if that truly is your question, then I will have to say that Sensei's Divining Top is the better card in most situations.

The Top is better then soothsaying in most decks because for the most part for Soothsaying to be better then top you need 4+ mana and if you have that much extra mana in your mana pool then I would have to say something is clearly not right.

Top is an artifact so it can be used as welder food for Goblin Welder as it is cheap, can do its work (stack your deck) and get tossed in the grave for something like Sundering Titan in one turn.  Your opponents shouldn't be wasting welder activations on you Top unless the situation is different (ex. if you have a Island, Volcanic Island, and Underground Sea out and your opponent has only a Mishra's Workshop and Barbarian Ring and they activate Welder exchanging the Top for a Sundering Titan in your graveyard).  Certainly that situation is not common but alas you never know.

Soothsaying requires blue mana.  One bad thing about this is that you have to have a blue mana source in your opening hand to take full advantage of it and that while likely can sometimes not happen.  Also, by using your blue mana you have taken away one of your few blue mana sources and unless you have 3+ you have taken away all possibilities of a Mana Drain coming down.  Top also can be thrown into any deck at will because of it being colorless.

The last thing about Sensei's Divining Top is that in Combo it can be the vital piece that draws that final card you need to win.  You could use the top with the extra Ritual mana if any to organize the top of your deck to find the last part of your combo and then draw it with the Top so that you can win when on your opponent's next turn they would clearly win.

[pyr0ma5ta]

Sensei's Top is 1 mana to look at 3 cards, and it gets run in Oath as extra synergy with Impulse/Brainstorm/Fetch/tutor effects.  It's also an artifact, so it can get pitched to TFK and is almost free welder food for a Mindslaver or Trike or whatever the case may be.  It can also help build storm if you need it (cast, cantrip the top, brainstorm to draw the top, cast the top, cantrip it, etc). 

Soothsaying, while blue, requires at least 2 mana a turn to do anything at all.  If your opponent is welding out your Top, you shouldn't be losing anyway.

[Harkius]

So, basically, Top is better b/c of Welder.

Interesting. I disagree that you need 4+ mana for Soothsaying to be more useful. In truth, you need 4+ mana for it to be more useful right now. While Vintage is certainly an environment where now is almost all that matters, it still seems a bit silly to use this. It just doesn't seem any good.

Harkius

[Moxlotus]

Top is better because its colorless, usess colorless mana, and can put a card into your hand in an emergency (I need Force NOW).

[The Atog Lord]

Harkius, your comparison between the two cards is quite valid. However, it is also worth noting that there is only a small subset of decks which do use top, and among those decks Soothsaying would make a poor replacement. Top is run in Confidant decks, allowing the decks to avoid taking massive amounts of Bob damage for one mana. More mana is require for Soothsaying to have a similar effect. Top has been run in combo decks with Future Sight where of course Soothsaying would not be practical. Top is run in some builds of Control Slaver, primarily for its interaction with Goblin Welder, Tinker, and Thirst for Knowledge. Top has also been used in some artifact beatdown decks which might not have regular access to blue mana.

So, in short, while there are similarities between Top and Soothsaying, in those instances where Top is actually played, Soothsaying would be a poor replacement. Still, this sort of thinking is just the sort of thinking that leads to improvements in deck design.

[Harkius]

To all of you:

Thanks for being great members of the community. I feel that I have a greater understanding now of the issue than I did two days ago. Also, a special thanks goes out to those of you who were thorough and polite (The Atog Lord and Penguin, especially). I hadn't really thought hard enough to realize that the only decks that run it have no ability to run Soothsaying.

I myself play in an unpowered meta, with a Keeper style deck. I run Soothsaying, because it smooths out the times I don't want to draw counter, and it can serve to allow me to dig into whatever answer I need. In addition, with a Library and at 7, it serves as a near tutor for anything that you could want. However, those are, admittedly, rather specialized circumstances. It seems perfectly credible, now, to me to run Top.

Thanks!
Harkius

[pyr0ma5ta]

I don't know, Soothsaying just seems underpowered compared to the top.  Remember that the top basically has "indestructible" on it, and is a brainstorm without the cantrip, every turn.  Try it out, and I'm sure you'll like it much more than Soothsaying.  And if you're playing Keeper, make sure to play the 11/11 (top is another way to avoid drawing it), and tinker to pitch a mox or the top for him.  In fact, I'd almost run thirst for knowledge in your keeper with extra solutions like pithing needle and tormod's crypt maindeck, because these are all great catch-all solutions that will help you power out draw-3 cards 5-9 in your deck.

[Gabethebabe]

Soothsaying is just really inferior, unless you have loads of mana available.

What Top does for 1 mana, SS does for three (I´m ignoring the fact that you can shuffle for 5, a really overcosted ability when you shuffle for free with fetchies)

But the best part is: you can actually decide to draw the card. Activate Top. Find Ancestral. Change Top for Ancestral. Ancestral. Draw three. Play Top. Go. That is quite some action SS can not provide.

Doesn´t take away the fact that SS is a reasonable card and if you´re able to use its ability a couple of times it can gain you considerable advantage in card quality. But unless there is a Null Rod around, I´d take Top over SS any time of the day.