Uba Stax - pseudo primer

[Vegeta2711]

*sigh*
Replace Fastbond w/ Tinker, Ancestral, anything. I thought I was pretty clear I was only posing a generalized comment. Jeez 

[Evenpence]

You were clear, sorry I looked like a prick, I really didn't mean to.

[unknown.root]

searching for data is tech.

Spamming is not.  If you don't have something to contribute, then don't post.

-Klep

[GAUDARD]

Has Glimmervoid been tried instead of City of Brass or Gemstone Mine? It seems most of the time it would be just as good as Gemstone since you've usually got moxen, or some other type of artifact, and it has potential to live longer.

I've got Vromam's build together now, and while playing a local guy who is running some type of 5c stax concoction I can't seem to gain a positive win percentage. All of his one of's are bombs, and they seem to trump everything I play.  Which seems like 5c stax while less consistent, it is more broken and I have to have win the roll and lock on turn one every game to have a chance. Any specific suggestions for a uba board to have for a 5c stax heavy meta?


What kind of hands can you keep and not keep?  Like is it ok to keep a wasteland/crucible hand with no other business? How about multiple welders and no locks? What about a few locks with only needing to draw 1 mana source? What about a broken hand with need of drawing a mox/shop?  Just a few of the hands I kept...and lost with.

[benthetenor]

The two are dyssynergistic for you, regardless if they're harmful to your opponent.  Like I said, yes, Null Rod does hurt the enemy (usually) more than it hurts you.  And yes, Sphere of Resistance hurts the enemy (usually) more than it hurts you.  However, it hurts you having both of them in play, making them dyssynergestic with one another.

What you fail to see (or at least acknowledge) is that Null Rod + Sphere of Resistance will pretty well screw over your opponent, so it really doesn't matter if you call them synergistic because they screw your opponent or desynergistic because they screw you. Judging synergy based solely on how much it hurts or helps you is a misapplication of the term "synergy".

Synergy means that two things work together. Having a large amount of synergy means that they work together very well. Null Rod shuts off mana, and Sphere of Resistance makes things cost more. The two cards help each other, as one makes the other one significantly more brutal and effective. They have synergy. The fact that their synergy is so great that it can occasionally bite you in the ass is irrelevant, at least to the point where you call it desynergistic, as it's obviously very far from that. It's up to you to not get into a position where Null Rod + Sphere of Resistance will hurt you more than your opponent. If you've been playing Stax for any amount of time it becomes much easier.

I know what you meant, but what you meant is pretty far from what you actually said.

[Evenpence]

Thanks for knowing what I meant Ben.  I would say Null Rod + Sphere (off the top of my head) are actually the only cards (EDIT: locks, obviously artifacts with activated abilities like moxes don't like Null Rod either) in the deck which actually don't like being out side by side, and which are detrimental to you.

Ubastax is usually (almost always) about world-effects which might detriment you, but on average are by far more beneficial.  They are usually mana-denial and card-denial type effects, but can be card-advantage and cost-cheating.  The range of what the locks do in Ubastax is simply absurd, and I know you understand that.

I usually say dyssynergy in how it applys to how the cards like each other.  For instance, Null Rod and Tormod's Crypt HATE each other.  That's not to say that they don't hurt the opponent more than you (Tormod's Crypt is completely one-sided), but the fact is that they are dyssynergistic.

I probably should have said some of the things that you did as well.  Again, thanks for knowing what I meant.

Has Glimmervoid been tried instead of City of Brass or Gemstone Mine? It seems most of the time it would be just as good as Gemstone since you've usually got moxen, or some other type of artifact, and it has potential to live longer.

I've thought about Glimmervoid a good bit, although I've decided that it's probably not worth testing.  The damage inflicted by City of Brass is relevant only really relevant against aggro.  However, having 1 or 2 Glimmervoids wouldn't be that bad.  The possibility for being ruined by Hurkyll's Recall/Rebuild while only having Glimmervoids down is just...bad.  If the only thing you have are Gemstone Mines and Glimmervoid, you might not have any permanents.

Ubastax doesn't really run any rainbow lands, though, so I don't think this is the right place to ask.  We should revive a 5c Stax thread.

I've got Vroman's build together now, and while playing a local guy who is running some type of 5c stax concoction I can't seem to gain a positive win percentage. All of his one of's are bombs, and they seem to trump everything I play. Which seems like 5c stax while less consistent, it is more broken and I have to have win the roll and lock on turn one every game to have a chance. Any specific suggestions for a uba board to have for a 5c stax heavy meta?

Were you playing Vroman's Ubastax list, or UbaWire list?  Playing his MLU (Ubastax with Spheres) list, you shouldn't have a problem against 5c Stax at all.  It's very superior, and I think that's a pretty well held opinion in the community.  Playing UbaWire (the other Ubastax list in another thread), is going to be worse for you because you have one less Null Rod, as well as no Gorrila Shamans, and some dead cards in the form of Tangle Wire.  (However, Gorilla Shaman is often times a dead card as well, even more dead than Tangle Wire, like late game).

I've played the 5c Mirror alot, and there are three primary things that you have to win in order to...well, win.

1)  Get crucible advantage.  This is the most important card while going against 5c.  It makes them not able to play a Stax, while enabling yourself to play a Stax.  It also allows you to waste their key lands while maintaining yours.
2)  Get welder advantage.  Kill Welders with sideboard cards, or barbarian ring, or just plain play more welders.  Getting welder advantage allows you to get crucible advantage.
3)  Play Chalice at 1.  When you have a Chalice at 1 out, but no one has welders, you are GOLDEN.  Even though they might only have 3 Welders (some lists only play 3, others play 4), you only have a few 1cc spells in your deck, where they have tons.  Playing Chalice at 1 will eventually allow you to win the welder war by killing the chalice to play welder, then another chalice at 1.  Chalice at 1 will allow you to win the welder war that will allow you to win the crucible war.

Play Viashino Heretics in the board.  He is an all-star in the mirror match.  Resolved Heretic can just flat out mean game if the 5c list doesn't have Swords to Plowshares in their deck (they usually don't have any other removal aside Trisk).  You should already have Chalice at 1 out anyway so they can't play swords.

Heretic is good because he accomplishes the first objective, bypassing the second and third.  He also wins the welder war, because if you have welder+heretic, and your opponent only has a welder, you can weld something out, and he can't do anything about it, because if he attempts to weld something else in, you can either destroy it, or allow him to exchange it, then destroy that.

Null Rod is huge too, as it does nothing against you, and hurts Karn/Triskelion for them.

Generally, you should have a large advantage in the 5c Mirror because of the following:

1)  You have 4 crucibles.  He has 3.
2)  You have 4 welders.  They might only have 3.  You have dedicated welder kill (b-ring, fiery temper) that gets around chalice at 1.  They don't.
3)  Chalice at 1 DESTROYS 5c.  It does virtually nothing against you.  Play Chalice at 1, even if your opponent has a pithing needle out naming Bazaar and you have a welder in your hand.

if this is your hand:

Welder, Wasteland, Mountain, Chalice, blanks.

And you have a Wasteland/Bazaar down, and your opponent has a rainbow land with a pithing needle naming bazaar, instead of playing the welder and passing, I would play the chalice at 1, because it's still the early game, and he most likely has 2-3 1cc spells in his hand, some of which might be swords to plow.  You virtually make his draws horrible, while making yours better.

This is a very polarized example, and it might be right to play the Welder in this case, especially if he has a threat down, or you have a threat down where you can abuse Welder.  Just knowing this information though, as well as it being early game, I would play Chalice at 1 because it makes winning the long-term game easier for you.

It's the same theory as playing Null Rod even with a mox heavy hand.  Even though you destroy some of your cards, you neuter your opponent worse than you neuter yourself long-term.

What kind of hands can you keep and not keep? Like is it ok to keep a wasteland/crucible hand with no other business? How about multiple welders and no locks? What about a few locks with only needing to draw 1 mana source? What about a broken hand with need of drawing a mox/shop? Just a few of the hands I kept...and lost with.

I try to have an absolutely broken start on the play.  I love mox-heavy hands.  I keep if I have a mox heavy hand and crucible with waste.  I have the ability to draw into more locks/welder, and he doesn't really have any way outside of heretic of stopping crucible.

I gaurantee (sp?) myself winning the crucible war (or at least getting into a tie) right off the bat, and also dissuade him from playing workshop-lock first turn if he doesn't have a crucible.

Multiple Welders might be the best starting hand possible against 5c Stax, especially if it's 3 or 4.  (I started the one game with 3 Welders in my hand against Travis and a b-ring.  GG).  No locks does not matter at all when you can mess with his.

As for the lock hands, it really does matter what you have.  You should be siding out Uba Mask (although keeping 1 in isn't necessarily bad, sometimes I do,) every game.

You should also be siding out Tangle Wires (if you run them) on the play, and spheres on the draw (I sometimes keep Trinisphere in, sometimes I don't.  I usually don't).  Don't side out Smokestacks, Crucibles, Chalices, Shamans, or Null Rods.  The only matchup I don't side out Shamans on the play is this one, because he's huge in this matchup.

Actually, I sometimes side out 1 Smokestack if I don't want to side out something else.  Smokestack is only really broken when you have Crucible (or welder), and you always want to play Crucible (or Welder) first anyway.  (unless you have a hand on the play like workshopx2, crucible, mox, smokestack, blankx2)

Side in Fiery Tempers, Viashino Heretics, Tormod's Crypt (gets rid of Welder targets and crucible lands), and Shattering Sprees (if you have them in your SB).

I usually change my sideboarding from game to game, so I don't have a set list of what I take out and take in.
I consider 5c Stax a favorable matchup (very favorable, actually), and don't exactly know why you've been losing to this guy so much.  Does he run things out of the ordinary, like Pithing Needle?  Does he have some tech we don't know about?  Is there anyway you have access to his list to look at what he's playing against you and in what numbers?  Does he play 4 crucible?

Thanks for your post, it was probably helpful to the community that was wondering about such questions, and whatnot.

Chalice at 0, 1, and 3 are all really good against 5c Stax as well.  I wouldn't put it at 2 unless I feared multiple seals of cleansing. 
Once 5c Stax starts SBing Shattering Spree, we'll start having problems.

A 5c Stax Meta is my DREAM.  I have an OATH meta.  (I know, it's horrible).  I SB 3 Jester's Caps, though, and they do REALLY well for me.  Now with the addition of Tangle Wire, I really don't think I can lose in my Meta.  As it is, this would be a great sideboard for 5c Stax:

4 Fiery Temper
3-4 Viashino Heretic
3 Tormod's Crypt

If you're meta is REALLY hardcore 5c Stax heavy, you can also do Lava Darts.

[heiner]

@vegetta: I won't go into detail with your post as if you don't take your time to read/understand my posts I dont feal responsive to answer yours.

To run with this. Why not use Fastbond? It's clearly better than at least a few cards in the deck. Oh wait, that's right, because consistency matters.

Read my postings about FIT and why non restricted cards can be better than restricted ones and you will see that I never proposed to throw fastbond, Ancestral etc in every dec. I even argumented against it. It has nothing to do with consistency though.

It's fallacious to claim that a priori; if you don't have tournament evidence or at least playtesting to back it up, your logic is inherently flawed.

benthetenor already answered this perfectly and i just want to add some further comment. You can always question everything. Thus it is common to define some basic axioms which everybody aggrees with and which can be used for a foundation of the discussion. As benthetenor said, everybody posting in this thread seemed to aggree with my two axioms. Therfore I definded them as a priori true.

Two Null Rods in play suck because they are not cumulative in any way. Of course also three or four Null Rods in play/hand suck. Basically if you resolved a Null Rod you really dont want to draw into another one therefore I suggested running only 2.

?  So you suggested something which you think sucks?

Is it really so hard to understand what I mean? I said that drawing into a second Null Rod is bad when you already have one in play/hand (not cumulative). The chance to draw into a second one is significantly greater when you play 3 or even 4 Null Rods Maindec then if you play only two. My conclusion was to play 2 Null Rods maindec, so you won't draw into a second one so likely.
BTW: It is really good to draw into a second SoR (cumulative).

[dicemanx]

There are some really puzzling claims being made recently in this thread, particularly revolving around the Null Rod and Sphere of Resistance issue.

I can tell you from a control player's perspective that I dread having to deal with and work around Null Rod. To read that I might only have to face as little as 2 Null Rods in the opposing UbaStax deck game 1 brings a sense of relief. The argument in favor of trimming down the Null Rod count (additional Rods being useless beyond the first) is dwarfed by the fact that it is imperative that you actually draw into Null Rod in a deck without tutoring or card drawing (the card drawing engine can be slow to set up, and you need to establish mana control very quickly). It is also incorrect to say that a second Null Rod is useless beyond the first, unless you are optimistic and believe that your Rod will not get countered or destroyed. Piling out Null Rods to hammer at the countermagic or overwhelm a RnR for example is hardly terrible. Furthermore, you still have Bazaars that can turn your redundant pieces into other cards. Granted this doesn't apply if you have Uba Mask and Bazaar in play, but if you already get that going and have Null Rod in play then having a second useless Rod is hardly something that should concern you with regards to deck construction.

This same kind of argument was used by Fish decks in justifying running only 3 Null Rods instead of 4, which, again, I thought was a big mistake.

The other arguments regarding Spheres of Resistance, and its "synergy" with Null Rod, also show quite a bit of optimism. Uba Stax, along with traditional Stax decks don't always have the benefit of explosive mana starts AND getting all of the lock pieces. Sometimes you have to contend with sitting on 4-5 mana and don't see much more until quite a few turns down the line. Maybe you'll also get lucky and draw a CoW to protect against Wasteland, but the point is that in those situations you'll be staring at those Resistors and Null Rods and passing turns. Furthermore, a Resistor by itself can be quite the weakling - it doesn't have the same impact as any other artifact in UbaStax. It is about the only artifact that actually relies on certain other combinations of cards (including additional copies of Resistors) to be most effective. Again, from the perspective of an opposing deck, I'm excited that some UbaStax players are considering Resistors for three reasons:

1. I have a chance of screwing them for mana (or they could simply screw themselves with Spheres)
2. If I control their stronger elements at the outset (FoW or Duress away key threats) I won't mind leaving behind the weaker lock piece - Sphere
3. Addition of Spheres means that they need to cut other lock pieces/solutions from their builds that I no longer will have to contend with

Now this is not to say that you will not win crushing victories with Resistors. They are after all additional "Wastelands" (that hit both players) and will serve you very well if your opponents are mana shorted and you have mana abundance. But with them you start walking a fine line between synergy and disynergy, which you can't cover by blanket statements like "Resistors and Null Rod have synergy". As a consequence, you start pulling away from consistency, because once you start running conditional cards where the conditions are not guaranteed you risk not getting a consistent result. For comparison, cards like Smokestack and Uba Mask are also conditional cards, but the conditions which they require (lots of permanents and running few/no instants or sorceries) are produced consistently by this deck because it runs nothing but permanents save the lone WoF.

[meadbert]

An important part of running 3 Null Rods is knowing that Bazaar will allow you discard extras later in the game.
Also an extra Rod can always be sacced to a Smokestack.

[GAUDARD]

...
I usually change my sideboarding from game to game, so I don't have a set list of what I take out and take in.
I consider 5c Stax a favorable matchup (very favorable, actually), and don't exactly know why you've been losing to this guy so much.  Does he run things out of the ordinary, like Pithing Needle?  Does he have some tech we don't know about?  Is there anyway you have access to his list to look at what he's playing against you and in what numbers?  Does he play 4 crucible?

Thanks for your post, it was probably helpful to the community that was wondering about such questions, and whatnot.
...

Well, he runs:

4 welders
4 dark confident
2+ withered wretch
2 shaman
2 phyrexian negator
1 dark blast
1 stp
1 naturalize
1 oxidize
1 ancestrial
1 vampiric
1 imperial
1 demonic
3-4 crucible
x jitte
x sword of fire and ice
5 moxen
1 lotus
1 sol ring
1 mana vault
1 mana crypt
4 wastelands
1 strip
3-4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
x Bayou
x Badlands


These numbers I know from playing against him last night. It's quite the pile, I'm not sure about all of the numbers but I think they're really close. I'm fairly sure his goal with the deck was to beat stax.... since thats what I was playing and it seemed to be successful, I probably went 4-6 against it last night. I ran out chalice for 1 asap, and a few times followed it up with chalice for 2 which usually sealed the deal. What would you classify that as? It doesn't look like something that would beat ubastax but it did.... granted I'm sure I'm not the best pilot, I'd like to think I'm pritty good. He did seem to get lucky by drawing his 1 ofs when he needed them, which is what the advantage of 5c is right?



EDIT:

Also, is Academy really necessary? I would think it can act as shop number 5, but unless you've got a mox heavy hand it isn't like shop number 5 on turn 1. Why not run another red source? Or something that you can be sure will add two mana like City of Traitors?

[Evenpence]

That list sure is a pile.  That's got to be the most jank 5c List I've ever seen.  I don't really know offhand how to beat it, either.  An active Smokestack looks like the best thing possible against that deck, as well as threshold mana for B-ring.

Thresholding B-ring with a crucible out is your best bet, as it makes you have land drops every turn and takes out his key creatures.  If he chooses to lay Negator, he's losing 2 permanents a turn.  If he chooses to play Confidant, he's wasted a card and mana (tempo).

Dicemanx, I kept my list at 3/3 (spheres/null rods) until I realized that there's a way to do 4/3 (cut a mountain and add in Tangle Wires).  You can read the UbaWire more for the new tech.

I completely agree though, Null Rod is much stronger than Resistorbs.

[Polynomial P]

I've played both ubastax and slaver and have a few opinions on null rod.

From the slaver perspective: I hate null rod. It immediately kills 2/3 of my mana sources, is not easily killed by gorilla shaman and must be dealt with before I win. If my opponent has 2 null rods out, I must burn my rack and ruin on both of them to have any effect on the game state. That means I am not killing my opponent's smokestack, crucible, chalice, ubamask...

From the ubastax perspective: Null rod is really good in most matchups. It sucks against aggro and oath, but I want to see 1 null rod in every match that matters: that means running 3 main. Having two spheres out means that Rack and ruin costs/rebuild five, but Gifts and CS will have something like 24-25 mana sources to cast it. Having 1 sphere and 1 null rod out meas that Rack and ruin/rebuild costs only 4, but they only have 15-16 sources to cast it. I would like to fit in sphere #4 to the maindeck, but dropping a null rod is risky without any tutoring capacity.

If I really wanted to fit in sphere number 4 I would drop duplicant. Some matches he does nothing and its hard to cast him with so many spheres/null rods. I think 3 spheres MD is good, and have that extra one in my SB. So far it has worked well for me.

Edit: Wow, lots of responses since I typed this. Diceman made similar points to me...and i agree with everything he said.


@ Gaudard: When playing stax you have to have a strong turn 1 play. Wasteland go is not going to win you the game. First turn Chalice @1, null rod, sphere of resistance, something that affects your opponenet is necessary. Turn 1 crucible with a waste in hand is ok if you can follow it up with something the following turn.

Against that 5c pile you want null rod, chalice@1 or chalice @2. He isnt running any workshops or basics, so turn 1 strip lock would be great. The wretches are the most problematic card there...but you should have fiery temper SB.

Tolarian is great. If both you and your opponent have crucible/waste locks on eachother, whoever has tolarian can produce more mana and get ahead. It is also Workshop #5, but can be used to push welders through sphere of resistance. It also cancels out sphere. Academy occasionally sucks, but it gets much stronger as the game goes on. Its not unusual to have Uba-bazaar and cast 2-3 spells off a single academy.

[Evenpence]

omgzorz!!!1  did u hear wht vroman iz doin now?  hes switchin 2 tangle wires!!!!111

tangle wires r so leet everywun shuld switch omgzorz!!!11

Seriously though.  They are really good.  Vroman's dropping Shamans all together (especially from the main), and I'm actually considering somehow grafting them back in.  Vroman likes MD maze.  I do too, but if I want Shamans in the main, I'm going to have to cut maze/duplicant all together.

I'm thinking about running the full set of locks, that is, just about every lock posted in this thread except for puzzle box (which is not the leetzors).

4 Resist Orbs are worth it.  I think I might go back down to 3, just because I can, but I've found they're a helpful addition to the deck, especially against drains and combo.

I'm not sure what the best build of UbaWire is right now.

I do, however, have a way for simplifying how people can build their UbaWire decks.  We get the givens, or the might-as-well-be-givens into the deck, which right now consists of 50! cards:

30 manabase w/3 mountains

4 Smokestack/Crucible/Chalice/Welder/Resist Orb  = 20

Okay.  That leaves a total of 10 combined slots for the following cards:

Null Rod
Uba Mask
Tangle Wire
Gorilla Shaman
Duplicant
Maze of Ith

Vroman's recent list (in a small tourney) was the following:

I played this list in a 27 person tournament yesterday

same mana base as always

[edited by Evenpence, it's just the above "Lock 20"]

3 tangle
3 uba
2 dup
1 maze
1 trisphere

side
4 null rod
4 f temper
3 heretic
3 maze
1 tormod

if I were to play a large tourney, Id run this:

standard mana
4 welder/smoky/crucible/chalice/resistor  [This is the "Lock 20"]

3 uba
3 tangle
2 nrod
1 maze
1 trisphere

side
4 ftemper
3 maze
3 heretic
2 shaman
2 nrod
1 dup

I'll edit this post in a second.  I've gotta go to the bathroom.

EDIT:  Okay, this post will forever be left unfinished, at least until I'm done with an article.

I'm probably going to write an article on the history of Ubastax, where it's been and where it's going, what there is to improve upon, weaknesses and strengths, matchup analysis, etc, the whole works.  I'll probably start it today and get it done tomorrow (there is ALOT of history) and maybe try to get this on StarCityGames, although I don't know how hard that is as I've never tried.

Anyone who has any authority or experience with SCG, how exactly would I go about getting something on there for the general public to view, like a history/analysis of Ubastax?  I'm a premium member, and I read daily / post occasionally.

[benthetenor]

omgzorz!!!1  did u hear wht vroman iz doin now?  hes switchin 2 tangle wires!!!!111

tangle wires r so leet everywun shuld switch omgzorz!!!11

Seriously though.  They are really good.  Vroman's dropping Shamans all together (especially from the main), and I'm actually considering somehow grafting them back in.  Vroman likes MD maze.  I do too, but if I want Shamans in the main, I'm going to have to cut maze/duplicant all together.

Typing like an idiot, even in jest, is not funny, especially when every single person thinks it is and puts it in their posts. Seriously. This isn't so much at you, but kinda a general statement. Just please, try not to. It makes my soul hurt.

And why are you waiting for Vroman's approval? If you think something works, freaking do it. We know what Vroman's opinions are. You don't have to barn on him like an idiot.

[Evenpence]

My point was actually going to be that Vroman listened to the Tangle Wire tech.  I.E., Vroman is not the source for all the answers, and there are actually still unexplored cards out there that are good in Ubastax.  We didn't think Ubastax could get any better until I discovered Tangle Wire, and sure golly there's something else out there as well, I betcha.

Another one of my points was going to be that listening to more people than Vroman about Ubastax is important, because Vroman listens to more people than Vroman, which is admirable and smart.

I got distracted wrestling with my little brothers and sisters and never finished my post after I went to the bathroom.  My computer sometimes just randomly shuts down, so I decided to post it with the sentence:  "Hey, I'll be right back," basically.

[Flux]

This is the best thing that has ever happened for control slaver, dropping null rods, duplicants, and gorilla shamans, for tangle wires.  This makes me a little horny.  Seriously though, tangle wires are just ok in my opinion.  There are more situations in control slaver where null rod or shaman is worse than tangle wire.  This might sound crazy but I think that tangle wires are only good in traditional stax builds with juggernauts.

The idea behind the wires and the spheres, is to sure up all the other matchups.  Also I don't think that many people play control slaver in the midwest, so making the change is ok for Vroman and anyone else playing in the midwest.

Evenpence:  If you want any history about Uba Stax feel free to PM me some questions you might have.  I was there when Vroman suggested uba mask as a good card, I looked at him and said, "I guess but how can you abuse it?  I just don't think you can."  I was wrong. 

If it wasn't for months of me beating him with blue/red fish then he still might be playing with platinum angel/lightning greaves or worse, the rack!  (I still think that he beat me a majority of the time...four trinispheres will do that)

Flux

[yespuhyren]

My current version (As Of Feb 15) is the following

4x Mishra's Workshop
4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
1x Tolarian Academy
4x Barbarian Ring
3x Mountain
4x Bazaar of Baghdad

1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Jet
1x Mana Crypt (I HATE! this card with a passion.  I lose too many games to crypt damage)
1x Sol Ring
1x Mana Vault

4x Goblin Welder
2x Duplicant

4x Smokestack
4x Crucible
4x Tangle Wire
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Uba Mask
3x Null Rod
1x Trinisphere

SB:

4x Fiery Temper (Aggro, Welders, etc)
4x Pyrostatic Pillar (Any storm tendrils, great because its unaffected by Rebuild/Hurkyl's so they can't just cast it EOT and have an easy win)
3x Viashino Heretic (Artifact go......BOOM!)
2x Duplicant (More Oath hate)
2x Pyroclasm (Random Aggro Decks, tons in my metagame)

The main things I really like about the SB is

a) Nothing hurt by Chalice @1
b) Nothing disabled by my own Null Rod
c) Pillar is protected against Hurkyl's/Rebuild

[Outlaw]

One of the most amazing combonation of cards that is out there is NUll Rod and Sphere of Resistance.  I am partcularily a control player but I have been tampering with stax for awhile now.  Making an opponent have to actually use their lands to pay for spells that have been increased via sphere of resistance is insane.  Because you can slow the control player's explosive amazingness to playing land one at a time and not having amazing workshop potential like we do.  In the mean time we are wasting / removing the opponents lands to remove his successful ability to play spells in the match.

[Evenpence]

Outlaw, your words are true.

I personally like Resist Orb + Tangle Wire better, especially in the early game.  The ability to use your moxes, while they only get 2 or 3 mana open (or only 1 if they lay a land that turn) is huge.

Sphere of Resistance is somewhat one-sided, as we have workshops and a ton of artifact mana accel, but Tangle Wire is completely one-sided, meaning that if you add it with any of your other locks (except Null Rod), Tangle Wire gets more insane.  Sphere isn't always this way.

Gorilla Shaman works wonders with both of them, allowing you to decimate their manabase.

The king of everything though, is a ramped smokey where you draw into a wire.  gg.

[heiner]

An important part of running 3 Null Rods is knowing that Bazaar will allow you discard extras later in the game.
Also an extra Rod can always be sacced to a Smokestack.

This is no argument for Null Rod though as you can sac every permanent to both smoky and bazaar. Ornithopter can also be sacced to Null Rod and discarded and it is cheapter than Null Rod and still nobody plays it. *strange*

[Koala]

Here last saturday, I were going to a non proxie turnament here in Denmark. Just before I went to the turnament i decided to take a look at the forum's. Then I saw Evenpence's acitle with the edia to fit Tangle Wire in Uba Stax (Btw. I have played Uba Stax myself since the first time I first saw it). I liked the idea and decided to fit in 4x Tangle Wire in my "Non powered Uba Stax build, tough with Shop's and Bazaar's", and the reason why I play non powered: I'am only 14 and running out of money. And with nearly no testing of Tangle Wire in the deck, I won the turnament .

- Koala

[Evenpence]

Congratulations.  Unpowered Ubastax?  What's your list?  Grim Monolith/Lotus Petal etc?

I've actually been getting email from Europeans saying how Tangle Wire is amazing in Europe because of the random aggro.  I didn't know it won tournaments, though, wow, I'm impressed.

How many people were in attendance?  Was it 50+ ?

[Koala]

We Were about 20 people i think, nearly everyone (but me) got full power. I know it wasn't the biggest turnament but here is the deck list:

Locks/semi locks:
4x Uba Mask
4x Sphere of Resistance
3x Null Rod
1x Trinisphere
4x Tangle Wire
4x Smokestack
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Crucible of Worlds

Creatures:
4x Goblin Welder
2x Duplicant
2x Gorilla Shaman

Mana base:
1x Sol Ring
1x Mana Vault
1x Mana Crypt
4x Mishra's Workshop
4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
4x Barbarian Ring
3x Mountian
4x Bazaar of Baghdad
1x Tolarian Academy

SB:
2x Maze of Ith
3x Red Elemental (Dont like this card myself, but didn't got anything to swith it with that day)
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Duplicant
3x Jester's Cap (lot of Oath in my Meta)
3x Viashino Heretic

[Evenpence]

Your list only has 20 mana sources!  Regular Ubastax has 26!

You're a lotus and 5 moxes completely short!  Kudos for somehow pulling a win out, though.

I'd personally run the regular list, just with a Grim Monolith/Lotus Petal/4 Ancient Tomb.  (Or maybe 4 ESG).

ESG = Elvish Spirit Guide.

I wouldn't run Ubastax in an unpowered meta if I didn't have power, though.  The manabase of Lotus + 5 Moxes is far too important.

Kudos for winning, though.  I'm glad you did, even with the shottiest manabase the world has ever seen. 

[Koala]

The list works for me, because in a other turnament I got 3rd place. I understand that you think it looks very unstable, because of Null Rod/Gorilla Shaman/Chalice for 0 don't harm myself, I can take total control of the game, with my extra lock piece that the powered version dont have. I'am not saying that my build is better than the powered version (not at all), but it works until i have got the money to buy power.

[Evenpence]

That's true.  You've got consistency in other areas.  I don't think it's optimal by any standard, and I know you'd be much happier playing with moxes, but I applaud you for making it work.  Post more about the deck, when you want.  We like experience when it comes to Ubastax, because so few players actually play the deck.

Thanks again for posting how good Wires are.  Makes my soul happy to come up with some new tech.

What were you running before, in place of the Wires?

[Koala]

Before the Wires I were playing this:
1x Wheel of Fortune
1x Grim Monolith
1x Lotus Petal
1x Sundering Titan

The biggest problem with my build is that it's need to have Workshop to perform optimal.

1 Game vs Gift's.

I get early Uba Mask out, and for the next three turn he draw's counter. And I start building up a lock with atleast 1 of each lock component, and he scoops.

1-0

After sideboard we start again i resolve early smokey followed up by Crucible, then playing Tangle Wire (that actually won the game for me because the next 3 turn he was tapped out. And during these three turns i drop 2 Sphere of Resistance and he scoops.

2-0

Game 2 vs Oath

I start up playing SoR. He plays land 2 mox and lotus, go. I waste his land and play Null Rod. On my next turn i play Uba, and next turn again smokey followed up by Crucible. He scoops.

1-0

He starts, playing turn 1 Oath + Orchard. I get rushed.

1-1

I start, playing Chalice 0 and sphere. He plays land, go. I draw anohter Chalice, and play it for 2. Next turn I get Crucible + Waste lock. I draw Welder. And for the next many turns I just beat 1, go. And at last he scoops.

2-1

Game 3 vs. Oath (again but not the same guy)

First game I win, by playing Chalice 2, Crucible + Waste lock. Followed up by tangle and Uba. He scoops some turns later. But didn't see a sign of power.

1-0

First game I didn't see a sign of power, so I make this terrible decision take all my anti mox hate out. And side in my Oath hate. He starts Orchard + Mox (oh... he had power). I play Smokey, go. He get's first Angel, Time Walk. Extra turn anohter angel and I'am dead.

1-1

Side all mox hate back in, and hate myself for my big mistake. He has a hell lot of counter and duress. and removes all my dangerous lock pieces. And some turns later he find's Oath, and I die.

2-1

Game 4 vs Cool Cookie non-powered mono-black discard the rack deck.

He plays turn 1 The rack, and I kept an hand Uba, Chalice, Null Rod, some lands i cant remember... too bad.
He won that game.

0-1

Next game turn 1 Chalice for 1, with The Rack gone he basicly loses, because I just keep back upping my lock components.

1-1

He starts but dont play The Rack, Turn 1 Chalice for 1, Turn 2 Chalice for 2, Turn 3 Chalice for 3. Some turns later he realises "hm.. I cant win " scoop.

2-1

That's the matches i can remember.

Tangle Wire is an amazing card in Uba Stax nearly every time I resolved it, I just won that game.
So please don't dumb the card, just because Vroman hasen't fully confirmed the card yet.
It makes the deck so much better (even in non-powered builds ) because nearly every time you resolve it you get time time to find your most important lock pieces. Not to mention all it ohters synergies.

- Koala

[benthetenor]

My point was actually going to be that Vroman listened to the Tangle Wire tech.  I.E., Vroman is not the source for all the answers, and there are actually still unexplored cards out there that are good in Ubastax.  We didn't think Ubastax could get any better until I discovered Tangle Wire, and sure golly there's something else out there as well, I betcha.

Another one of my points was going to be that listening to more people than Vroman about Ubastax is important, because Vroman listens to more people than Vroman, which is admirable and smart.

I got distracted wrestling with my little brothers and sisters and never finished my post after I went to the bathroom.  My computer sometimes just randomly shuts down, so I decided to post it with the sentence:  "Hey, I'll be right back," basically.

Who is this "we" that you're referring to? I personally think that Tangle Wire is a mistake, for the same reason that it's always been a mistake. It's a tempo card, not a control card. It works in other versions of Stax because those versions are much more focused on stealing tempo than on actually denying mana.
I agree that Vroman's not the source for all things Uba Stax. That's why I'm puzzled as to why you felt the need to post that he's testing out the Tangle Wires.

On a side note, I'm glad that you discovered Tangle Wire. I'd never even heard of the card before you mentioned it. And I think the people who are most qualified to write a history of Uba Stax are either Vroman himself or his teammates who have actually seen the deck evolve. No offense, but the history that you're looking at started with a power-winning deck list that has only gotten better from there. The evolution that you speak of is merely a number of things that have been tested but have so far proven to be less potent than the original.

[Flux]

Tanglewire is dogshit in Ubastax.

The best deck that ever used tangle wires was workshop aggro, with four trinispheres and juggs.  Ubastax should stick to null rods and sphere of res. because those hurt way more in the long run than taglewires do.  If you play a tangle wire, you also want a clock established that your opponent can't deal with.  First turn trinisphere followed by tanglewire, followed by jugg is the best use for tanglewire in my opinion.

Also I think that the deck needs to bring its duplicants back in some number.  I could see why you wouldn't play shaman but you need the duplicants, or else you will have no way of dealing with oath or welders.

Flux

[Jacob Orlove]

Okay, this thread is WELL PAST the point where people can look to it for useful information. There is just too much going on, too many old lists, and almost 3 months worth of posts. It's time to start (or start posting in) some new topics.

Closed.