Control Slaver Tech - Basic Swamp?

[MoxMonkey]

DSC is in my list right now because my local Metagame sucks terrible balls.  Almost Everyone is running random junk and maybe Grim long or something good shows up every once and a while.   I run DSC because of the fact that the metagame has no way to deal with him but outside of that and this past waterbury I never run DSC in CS he is awful has no synergy and can never be hardcasted until you won the game anyway.  I will have Titan there when if I'm able to make the trip down to Richmond.

I think you should have a Citadel even without Crucible of Worlds since its another Artifact you can weld and pitch to thirst.  It doesn't get eaten by Gorilla Shaman so it gets major props. 

The Swamp has been really cool but it really is just over kill and I'm just trying to make my blood Moons from the board more playable and good. It isn't awful but it isn't uber maybe I'll test 1 Sea 1 Swamp 1 Citadel 1 LOA 1 Strip Mine so my mana base can be a million 1 ofs.   

[forests failed you]

I don't like blood moon in slaver, they shut off your shuffle effects from Fetch lands.  Those Fetches win you games if you play them right.  Fetches = GG newb.

[Eandori]

Darksteel Citadel fills ALOT of roles in Control Slaver

1. It pitches to TFK
2. It's a key to the easier slaver lock
3. With a Crucible, you never worry about pitching it.
4. It's an un-counterable artifact
5. Mox Monkey cannot blow it up, neither can Rack and Ruin or Disenchant.
6. Strip Mine cannot destroy it (like it CAN destroy and island)
7. Wastland cannot destroy it
8. It's a weldable mana source (meaning your welder can turn into another land if you have another artifact mana in the GY)

If I'm in control and I resolve a Gifts, I will often go for these cards for the win. (Darksteel Citadel, Crucible of Worlds, Mindslaver, Black Lotus)

Sometimes that list changes a bit... but a resolved gifts like that usually leads to a slaver lock next.  Especially if it happened on their EoT or off Drain mana.

About Vampiric tutor, yeah I totally agree and play VT over Mystical because that's exactly what has won me games in the past.  VT for the key card I need.  AND the fact that my opponent does not see it, which is a point often overlooked.

[seer]

Obviously, it's easy to construct an argument for why Darksteel Citadel is good sometimes. The same goes for Strip Mine and Library. However, in the case of Library, the card flat out wins games on its own in the control mirror.

I'm just wondering if people have any thoughts on the number of games lost due to that darksteel citadel/strip mine not being an island and whether or not it is a good tradeoff. I know personally, I have, quite often run one citadel in my decks. I've only had to tutor for it a few times, but I have had many times where I had to mulligan a hand that would have been golden had the citadel been an island.

[seer]

If I'm in control and I resolve a Gifts, I will often go for these cards for the win. (Darksteel Citadel, Crucible of Worlds, Mindslaver, Black Lotus)

I'm assuming that in this case you have a welder in play? In that case even without running citadel you could gifts for simply mindslaver and pentavus and get close to the same effect without having to run the other cards in your deck. I'm not saying that they are bad, per-say, but I don't really buy that as an argument for why they are worth running and win you more games than they lose.

[rureddy31]

Why Tinker for Collossus when you can just inker for The Win^tm?
But in all seriousness, I see absolutely no reason to that I would want a Collossus. I can count the number of games I have lost after resolving timker on one hand. Tinker should almost always be setting up a broken play, whether it be taking out opposing welders, shamans, etc..., recurring pentavus via welder, or simply going for slaver with mana to activate. Collossus is simply a "win-more" target for tinker, and it is almost always a dead card in hand if you don't have a TFK. Pentavus, Triskelion and Slaver can be hard-casted whereas Collossus is slightly out of range, and has Mana Drain written all over him (of course, you hope that your opponent burns for 11 when they forget, that's always fun).
As for the basic swamp, I too once considered it, but hated it in my opening hand. You can't keep hands like: Swamp, Fetch, Brainstorm, Mana Drain, Force of Will, Thirst For Knowledge, Sol Ring. Whereas if that swamp is a Volcanic Island or Underground Sea (or Island, I really don't know what spot the Swamp is taking), that hand is fine (assuming this is game 1). I recently tinkered with my build of slaver by taking out the 4th copy of Volcanic Island in favour of the third Island. If you are playing against Wastelands, you have to play smart. Save your fetches for that black source. You only get one of use it, so make it good. Cast a Yawg Will, or a D. tutor for The Win^tm. Black mana is not important in the long run. Like someone mentioned, there are what, 3-5 black spells in the MD? Swamp is overrated. Also, I like darkblast and all, but I think welder is becoming less and less important in most matchups. 

[forests failed you]

I split with JD for a Mox Ruby in Cleveland this weekend playing SLaver and he convinced me to cut Citadel for another fetch land.  I liked the extra fetch, but I really really missed Citadel.  I regret not cutting LOA instead of the citadel.  Next time I would seriously consider cutting LOA over citadel.  But never ever ever again will I play with out that little castle thingy.

[rureddy31]

I like citadel as well. But not so much in BS as in my original CS that I played against you in SCG with. I would NEVER cut LOA. I have won too many games with that card, and I can't see how you would want to cut it either. It won you a Time Walk at SCG (as that card single handedly turned your hand of shit into a strong hand of permission). Fetch lands are insane. There is absolutely no question. However, is it stable enough? Here is my land base, and what I would replace in order to fit in the 6th fetch:

4 Polluted Delta
3 Island - (If I added the 6th fetch, this would become a Flooded Strand)
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Flooded Strand
1 Tolerian Academy

*EDIT: I knew I ran 16 lands. I missed the Tolerian Academy, go figure...

[MoxMonkey]

I think your missing a Strip Mine from your List since BS has Crucible being able to Strip lock someone is amazing and it gives you an out against an Active LOA and or Academy thats pumping out 3-6 mana.

[rureddy31]

I don't play the crucible lock. I have all the lands, I am sure of it. I understand that I may lose games to active library. but most decks should lose to that. As for an answer to Academy, I run a strip for it. It's called Tolerian Academy

[Eandori]

If I'm in control and I resolve a Gifts, I will often go for these cards for the win. (Darksteel Citadel, Crucible of Worlds, Mindslaver, Black Lotus)

I'm assuming that in this case you have a welder in play? In that case even without running citadel you could gifts for simply mindslaver and pentavus and get close to the same effect without having to run the other cards in your deck. I'm not saying that they are bad, per-say, but I don't really buy that as an argument for why they are worth running and win you more games than they lose.

It's VERY EASY to get 1 welder in play, so yeah it's a good assumption he's there.

If I give my opponent a Gifts split with Pentavus and Mindslaver, he will put the other 2 cards in the GY and those big artifacts into my hand almost everytime.  So consider that for a moment, what was a better choice for those other 2 slots?  Thirst?  Gifts?  Tutor?  Drain?  Welder?  Those cards don't do much for me in my Graveyard.  But another 2 artifacts that can be welded into play and abused help a ton.

If he puts my Slaver in the yard with an active welder, he loses.  If he puts pentavus in the yard, he's risking both slaver lock and beatdown.  Darksteel Citadel and Crucible are much less worse then those first two, so they go into the yard.  Which means I weld the crucible into play, then ALL I need is Slaver in the yard and it's a lock for the win!  Meanwhile I can abuse him with my Strip Mine/Fetches or use that Citadel to keep pulling other artifacts out of my GY.

I don't play the crucible lock. I have all the lands, I am sure of it. I understand that I may lose games to active library. but most decks should lose to that. As for an answer to Academy, I run a strip for it. It's called Tolerian Academy

Strip mine does FAR MORE then just shutting down Academy and Library.  Since adding Strip, I have had that "oops I win" factor in many games where I drew fast mana, strip mine, and crucible.

Strip mine/Crucible does AMAZING things to decks that NEED their mana in Vintage... which is the majority of the field.  Even a single strip mine can send the opposing deck into topdecking mode for another dual or bazaar/workshop.

It's worth trying, ESPECIALLY if you have Crucible.

[TheBrassMan]

If I give my opponent a Gifts split with Pentavus and Mindslaver, he will put the other 2 cards in the GY and those big artifacts into my hand almost everytime.

You're allowed to Gifts for less than four cards, resulting in at least two in the bin, and the remainder for your hand.  I'm pretty sure rleidle is referencing the fact that you can gifts for *just* Mindslaver, Pentavus, no other cards, as a double-entomb.  If you can't consistantly win out of that situation, you need to consider picking up a new deck.  If you want to run Crucible/Artifact Land in an otherise standard slaver list, I think that's a terrible mistake, but even if you go with it, Gifts for "Slaver, Bus" is still an insanely better play than "Slaver, Bus, Cruci, Citadel."

[Liam-K]

Since we're talking lands, what's up with people's refusal to consider putting LoA in their board?  I mean, it's a card that can win you games in specific matchups, but simply isn't worth it against a spread of decks.  How is this not a sideboard card?  Are people worried about the coloured mana ratio getting fucked up?  I don't think this is much of a concern next to being able to randomly outdraw your opponent 2 to 1 in drain matches.

[Lou]

Since we're talking lands, what's up with people's refusal to consider putting LoA in their board?? I mean, it's a card that can win you games in specific matchups, but simply isn't worth it against a spread of decks.? How is this not a sideboard card?  Are people worried about the coloured mana ratio getting fucked up?  I don't think this is much of a concern next to being able to randomly outdraw your opponent 2 to 1 in drain matches.

Actually, I ran LoA in my board at Gencon.  It won me games against the mirror, but those were games I should have won anyways.  It wasn't really that useful, and an extra REB probably would have been more useful.

[MoxMonkey]

I like my Swamp because it allows me to cast Darkblast all the time but without it I'd probably run a Fire/Ice.  A question I have is, how has everyone else been doing with Welder, Shaman, Confidant, and other x/1 creature kills?  Is Triskelion enough to deal with all the x/1s running around or is the Instant speed needed?  What has everyones testing shown?  Would you go to say Richmond with just Triskelion or would you want some second way to kill little guys?  Whats everyones thoughts?