[Premium Article] Matchup Analysis: Ichorid v. BM Gifts

[Smmenen]

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/11761.html

The blurb:
The Vintage game can be daunting to the casual observer. Powerful cards, insane plays, games won and lost on the very first turn... Luckily, Stephen is here to help. By running through, play by play, four actual matches featuring Meandeck Ichorid versus Brassman Gifts, he dissects each and every possible twist, and the thought process behind every move. An excellent article, destined to spawn many others...

Seriously, check it out.

[nataz]

I really like the article; If there is one thing about your articles, its that they are meticulous and chalk full of intersting details. (course that doesn't mean that you can't be meticulously wrong every-once-in-a-while).

Couple of questions though

1) I noticed multiple times that you were removing ichorids to ichorids,

Haste.
At end of turn, sacrifice Ichorid.
At the beginning of your upkeep, if Ichorid is in your graveyard, you may remove a black creature card in your graveyard other than Ichorid from the game.
If you do, return Ichorid to play.

I was under the impression that you couldn't do that.

*edit
OMG, wtf, etc blah, etc., I didn't even think to read the card any other way, and in both tournement play and testing, no one ever mentioned otherwise. While genearlly not a huge difference, I know for a fact that it made at least one critical difference two weeks ago at myriad. Plus, it can mad change the math when looking to dredge a "black" creature. Yay for learning something new, feel free to point and laugh now. 

2) Aren't you glad that you kept some careful studies in the deck

3)

BMG: Island, Brainstorm, pass
MD: I draw Brainstorm. Ugh. So many decisions

I think you meant to type

BMG: Island, Brainstorm, pass
MD: I draw Brainstorm. Ugh. So many decisions insane plays!

fixed that for you

I'd like to chime in with my answers to some of the more difficult plays, but seeing that its 2am-ish here w/ class @ 8, I'll just edit them in tomorrow. The one thing I will say tonight however is, <3 cropper into strip mine!

[Kowal]

I was going to explain it, but then I figured SCG already had.  Lo and behold...

Q: Hey, Sheldon!

If I have more than one Ichorid in my graveyard, can I remove an Ichorid to put the other one back in play? I guess to make it short, is Ichorid Ichorid food?

Thanks in advance for your reply,
Matt

A: Matt,

An Ichorid can indeed be food for another, because it is, after all, black.

I might as well chime in here. When the text of a card includes the actual card name, it should be parsed as ~this~. For example "U: Morphling gains flying until end of turn" is actually "U: ~This~ gains flying until end of turn" rather than some ability that gives any Morphling flying until EOT. Likewise for Ichorid, the ability essentially reads "remove a black creature card in your graveyard other than ~this~ from the game".

-Jacob

[Gabethebabe]

I might as well chime in here. When the text of a card includes the actual card name, it should be parsed as ~this~. For example "U: Morphling gains flying until end of turn" is actually "U: ~This~ gains flying until end of turn" rather than some ability that gives any Morphling flying until EOT. Likewise for Ichorid, the ability essentially reads "remove a black creature card in your graveyard other than ~this~ from the game".

And note that ~this~ has no memory. If you activate the ability of Mageta the Lion and in response someone waves out the Lion with Parallax Wave and then Disenchants the Wave, Lion will come back into play as a fresh new dude and will be destroyed by its own ability that´s still waiting to resolve.

The totally irrelevant detail was brought to you by GtB Productions. Have a nice day.

[Smmenen]

I really hope people check out this article.

It's been a long time since I've done ana rticle in this style. 

i think it could be really helpful to newer vintage players to get this sort of perspective on the game. 

[meadbert]

Quoting Article:
{
Mox Jet
Ichorid
Ichorid
Putrid Imp
Crop Rotation
Gemstone Mine
Bazaar of Baghdad

Let's see what BMG does:

Turn 1

BMG: Island, Brainstorm, pass

MD: I draw Brainstorm.

 1) I could play the Gemstone Mine and Crop Rotate (presumably for Strip Mine). This cuts me off from Brainstorm, probably forever.

2) I could play the Gemstone Mine and play Brainstorm. If I see a dredger or a Cabal Therapy, that would be amazing. I could then discard the dredger and the Therapy to Putrid Imp and dredge on my next draw step, and then dredge against with bazaar. In addition, I could flashback Therapy and feed the Ichorids.

3) I could just play Bazaar and use it. If I do that, I'll have to discard three cards after drawing two more.

Option 2 would enable me to play Crop Rotation on turn 2, as well as the Bazaar in hand. It seems to be the play that makes the most of the cards I have. But I'm really not sure if it is the best play.
}
End Quoting Article

My first instinct was to go for Bazaar right off the bat.  Bazaar can get activated every turn where as Brainstorm is a one time thing.  Also, Bazaar is a discard outlet so you could discard dredge cards that would help you dredge more off a brainstorm.  The only drawback to Bazaar is discarding 3 cards.  Since there are two Ichorids that means at most you have to discard one card that you might want in your hand.

I was thinking Bazaar this turn. Bazaar next Upkeep.  Then Brainstorm.

Was your thinking that you wanted the extra draw that Brainstorm allows on turn one to maximize the chance of seeing Chalice of the Void?

Were you more concerned about having to discard a good card?

Could you explain the process of making this decision a bit more?

Even if it wasn't the right decision I like to understand how you go about a difficult decision like this.

Thanks,
Bert

[LordHomerCat]

Terrific article, the matchup analysis ones are some of my favorites as you provide a ton of insight into what the plays are and why they are good, and which you think (at the time) is the best.

If you're still looking for topics... how about some MD Gifts vs. Shay Slaver matchups, ala old Oscar Tan (obv. you with Gifts and Shay with Slaver)?  Given the conflicts in the Thirst thread, it would be interesting to see how the theories you both put forth would hold up in real game situations.

[Moxlotus]

It was a really well written article Steve.  These are my favorite articles you write.

On the Sea v. Academy stripping play:

I think I would have stripped the Academy too.  How could you know that BMG was going to cast all 4 black cards?  If you would have stripped Sea, he would have enough blue mana to cast 2 or even 3 draw spells each turn if he didn't randomly have Will in hand.  I'd say its more likely that he would find something to kill you this way than happen to have the FING NUTZ of every black card ever this game.  Plus, he could still fetch out the other Sea at some point.  While I never would have thought about cutting off colors against BMG so early, in that board position I think stripping the Academy was the right play.

In the other game I think you are right in hindsight that playing turn 1 Bazaar is the correct play.  I did not realize that Brainstorms add such another dimension to the deck (I had Breakthroughs in my test deck before I gave up), but the heart of the deck is still aggro.  Gifts won't kill you turn 1 99% of the time so you can still have another turn to Therapy something out, only this time you have a clock.  Proactive disruption in EVERY deck is ass if you can't back it up with a major threat that will win you the game soon.  Turn 1, you had no threat that turn, nor would have one the next--giving your opponent enough time to recover from your disruption in time before he is in range of dying.  You're looking at a turn 4 kill at the earliest assuming your bazaar is safe.  Gifts will probably find something in those next turns to combo out.  If you get Bazaar going on turn 1, not only can you therapy on turn 2, but have at least have a chance to hit ANOTHER therapy either on turn 2 or a really good chance to hit one on turn 3.  This way you have a clock, disruption, and possibly even more disruption.  I see the reasoning behind what you did, I just don't agree with it.

[meadbert]

The Banned Plays Again: An Encore For Magic’s Greatest Decks

I would like to see an update to this article.

Last time you mentioned you may not have played the most broken versions of Academy and Necropotence.

Perhaps do the same thing again only use the most broken versions of the decks and add 4 Trinisphere Stax and any other decks that belong.

[The Chosen One]

Excellent article Steve, it was a very informative read... Just to throw it out there, has anyone tested mental note? I play a ichorid deck(proxyless for casual games at the local card shop), but I have no bazaars, and I am using more discard/draw effects to fill my grave etc...What kind of ideas would you have for a deck to achieve maximum efficiency without the use of bazaars?

[mgouthro]

Thanks for the article. I like the way the information was presented and how the decisions were formulated. One thing that occasionally bugs me about scenarios is how often the opening hand is pretty much ideal for the decks. In practice, I've often shuffled, pile shuffled, and cut every which way but Sunday and yet I still end up with sub-optimal hands about half the time. Mulligans fix this sometimes, but I am curious if each of the opening hands were consecutive games. Maybe my luck is just terrible!  :lol:

Flame Fusillade is a restricted card, however, as are the tutors.

When did this happen?  :shock:

[Disburden]

Thanks for the article. I like the way the information was presented and how the decisions were formulated. One thing that occasionally bugs me about scenarios is how often the opening hand is pretty much ideal for the decks. In practice, I've often shuffled, pile shuffled, and cut every which way but Sunday and yet I still end up with sub-optimal hands about half the time. Mulligans fix this sometimes, but I am curious if each of the opening hands were consecutive games. Maybe my luck is just terrible!  :lol:

Flame Fusillade is a restricted card, however, as are the tutors.

When did this happen?  :shock:

Restricted as in the card is a one of in the deck, thus it's draw/top decking ability is restricted.

[Smmenen]

My replies to every post in this thread who asked a question are found in the SCG thread for this article. 

[Smmenen]

The upside to this whole Flame Vault fiasco is that Meandeck Ichorid just got a huge boost.

The only really threatening play against you is turn one DSC or the FF + Tim eVault combo at any stage of the game.  With Time Vault out of hte picture, serious ichorid players should not even waste time on this matchup.  You'd best be served testing Slaver instead.

[Gabethebabe]

Ichorid will never make it to the top. Fighting through Tormod´s and Needles all day is hard as it is, but if that is not enough people will just start playing a single Caltrops in their sideboard to really wipe Ichorid´s ass.

Yes, one such narrow card can be useful if you want to turn a nightmare matchup into a cakewalk. There still 14 left for the rest of the field.

[arj]

Excellent article. It reminded me of Vromans tournament article about a month or two ago. Really in depth. Reading about these decks really helps playing better against them also. This is probably the best substitute to testing the actual decks

[Smmenen]

Ichorid will never make it to the top. Fighting through Tormod´s and Needles all day is hard as it is, but if that is not enough people will just start playing a single Caltrops in their sideboard to really wipe Ichorid´s ass.

Yes, one such narrow card can be useful if you want to turn a nightmare matchup into a cakewalk. There still 14 left for the rest of the field.

Why should ichorid be worried about a single caltrops? 

Ichorid is really really good.

I'm goign to write another matchup analysis article for the slaver match and hopefuly get more games in.

I should have beaten Jeff Anand playing Control Slaver even after he played:

Yawg Will
Tinker
AND Slaved me

I still almost won.

That's how good Ichorid is. 

[Disburden]

This article was amazing. I can't wait for more match-ups against MeanDredge. Have you played the match-up with Meandeck Gifts? I feel with Flame/Vault being dead people may see that Severance Belcher is horrible and swtich back to your version of Gifts.

[Smmenen]

I dunno, I don't like playing my own decks against each other - like I won't do a Grim Long v. Meandredge article.  Same thing.

But I will do a Slaver v. Meandredge article.  That'll be the next matchup article.

[nataz]

I dunno, I don't like playing my own decks against each other - like I won't do a Grim Long v. Meandredge article.  Same thing.

But I will do a Slaver v. Meandredge article.  That'll be the next matchup article.

will it include the answer to your own question?

[Gekoratel]

Another matchup that would be good to cover would be Grim Long vs. IT because both are very popular right now and there is debate about which side is favored.

[Ged]

Another matchup that would be good to cover would be Grim Long vs. IT because both are very popular right now and there is debate about which side is favored.

Seconded.
It would be nice to see how you play against a deck with duresses and fow's and a clock that is a turn or so slower.

[Smmenen]

How many people play combo that would actually care about that match?  Very, very few.  Am i wrong?

[Disburden]

How many people play combo that would actually care about that match?  Very, very few.  Am i wrong?

I go off and on/ back and forth with Grim Long sometimes, but I see the point here. I honestly think you may be better off with something else. Slaver Vs. Meandredge sounds awesome though, since it's the hardest match up for your deck (correct?). Maybe after that you can test your Enchantment Stax ideas against Control? 

Edit: Are you going to play Rich Shay's type of list for testing, or Burning Slavery? Do you think they'll be any difference with the two decks?

[Smmenen]

I thought Shay's list would be better since it has md t. crypt.  There are differences, but i think the real differnce is what the deck would look like after board.

B. Slaver has a diff. sb plan. 

[Disburden]

This is going to be really good.  I want to ask what has happened so far, but I will wait.

[The Atog Lord]

Steve, I'd like to briefly share my thoughts on sideboarding. I played against Deranged Parrot (Tom), with whom I had worked for PT LA,  at SCG. He won the die roll and opened each game with Chalice and Bazaar, so that made things interesting. I won 2-1.

I quickly realized that sideboarding would be key to the match. You are right, Steve, in that my build really differs from DeMars' build regarding the sideboard. Here is what I brought in against Tom:

2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Lava Dart
2 Rack And Ruin

My first realization was that Ichorid's spells beyond the first turn didn't really matter. A first turn Chalice was annoying, but otherwise the deck didn't really care much about Mana Drain. So all four of those go. Fact or Fiction is way too slow for this matchup -- that goes too. Finally, a single Mindslaver can go; it is slow, and my Welders might not have long lives against Ichorid's Darkblasts. That leaves:
- 4 Mana Drains
- 1 FoF
- 1 Mindslaver

The first thing to realize about this matchup is that in many ways Control Slaver is actually the beatdown. Meandeck Ichorid has an awful time with Bridge and Crypt -- and if you can force through and protect those broken spells, you're in good shape. The Bridges are powerful because you are often able to dump your hand if needed, and Ichorid has a hard time winning if you can keep this out with a handsize of two or less. Tormod's Crypt is devastating, and I don't need to go into why there.

The only thing you're really afraid of are artifacts. A random Turn One chalice can lock you out of the game a always. And Chalice (and post-board Needle and Nullrod) stop your Crypts. Having a lot of ways to deal with them is important.

Finally, it's worth noting that Colossus does a good job racing this deck.