TSR - Litz Long. The deck that pushes combo to Tier 1 again!

[Moxlotus]

I think Time Walk is suboptimal in any combo deck.  Walk functions as a bad card draw and bad mana acceleration.  It also messes up mulligan decisions since you don't know what the next card--the card you get with Walk--is. 

[heiner]

HI there,

I have been further working on the deck but as this thread generated almost no traffic at all I thought it would be more benficial to test with my homies instead of taking my time here writing on TMD holding a monologue.

Anyway here are the changes:
The mana base has been adopted and now plays 2 Usea, 1 Swamp, 1 Island, 4 Polluted Delta, 2 Bloodstrained Mire, 1 Tolarian.
I am playing two bounce spells namingly Hurkyls Recall and Chain of Vapor. No Echoing Truth anymore.
I cut Minds Desire and Windfall to play the 2nd bounce and currently one  Intuition. Intuition is not very good and I would play the fourth Grim Tutor if it wasnt for the blue count.
Time Walk is another not so hot card but its still ok and I dont find any better blue substitute. Its inclusion also depends on the Sideboard technique (see below)
Seal. It is very very good and cannot be cut.
LED. Sometimes its soo uber broken that it is justified IMHO. Sure its situational but as long as Tinker/Jar and Twister is in the deck its save i think.
I havent really tried Meditate because i dont like its randomness. Sometimes you will draw nuts and just win and sometimes you will loose. The strongest aspect of this deck is that it does not rely on draw sevens which never guarantee a sure win.

To the stax matchup. I played a transformational oath SB with 3 critters and Krosan Reclamation to combat Jesters Cap and the like. I had mediocre success with it having real bad luck last tournament and therefore not making a T8. I still think its strong and its not too bad that it cloggs the complete SB as you win all matches besides vs. strong hate (cap+extract) and stax anyway.

[BreathWeapon]

Removing Mind's Desire and Windfall over Time Walk just seems so, so wrong. Mind's Desire is one of the strongest cards in the deck versus control as long as your willing to slow play into it (which is fine against CS). Even Windfall, despite being god awful at times, is still better in the first seven than Time Walk can ever be, IMO.

Boarding into Oath seems janky, with 6 fetch lands and 2 basics sitting on Hurkyl's Recall and waiting to go off seems like the appropriate plan of action. Also, I'm pretty sure that Flooded Strand is the appropriate secondary fetch land, as blue mana is more important than black mana for setting up the combo.

[ErkBek]

I cut Minds Desire and Windfall to play the 2nd bounce and currently one  Intuition. Intuition is not very good and I would play the fourth Grim Tutor if it wasnt for the blue count.

You should try perplex.

[M.Solymossy]

Perplex is good, and is funny when you actually CAST it

[heiner]

@breathweapon: Windfall is uber crap. Its such a bad Topdeck its not even funny. Oh and yes sitting there with some fetchlands waiting to finally ramp up to 4 mana (SoR) beeing able to play that Hurkyls Recall, without the  possibility of searching for it COTV(1) and getting caped every turn (welder+cap) is such a good idea! I can see that you have tested my deck and esp. the stax matchup thoroughly.

For SBing issues. Either you go with the oath plan or try the IT 4 confidant, 4 Tendrils  Route. I dont think there are less extensive possibilites, In both cases it eats up a lot of SB slots.

Regarding Perplex. I havent tested it but on paper it seems just soo bad. I will give it a  try though and report.

[BreathWeapon]

@Heiner

There's no need to be a sarcastic ass, I'm more than familiar with storm combo in Vintage considering it is the only archetype I play competitively, and I've played every incarnation of storm combo since the original Long.

I'm going to address the three points I raised,

First, in order to support Force of Will, the deck needs sixteen blue cards. Sixteen blue cards requires sub optimal card(s) to be included in the deck. Of these card(s), Windfall and Time Walk are the least optimal, disregarding the utility of Hurkyl's Recall and Chain of Vapor. Comparing the two, Windfall is superior to Time Walk in the first seven cards, and it is superior to Time Walk as top deck despite both being awful top decks. One sub optimal card is less optimal than the other, and that card is Time Walk.

Second, a single Sphere of Resistance causes Hurkyl's Recall to cost an additional colorless mana, which makes its casting cost 2U and not 3U as stated. If your implying that the Stax player goes first, resolves Chalice of the Void at one to prevent the Storm player from casting Brainstorm, Imperial Seal or Vampiric Tutor, then follows with two Sphere's of Resistance (3U cc) and a Jester's Cap, and the Storm player doesn't have Force of Will in hand for one of the lock pieces, a Hurkyl's Recall after side boarding an additional three copies or the mana to resolve it ... that isn't the side boarding plan's fault, god just hates you.

Third, I still haven't seen actual reasoning for removing Mind's Desire from the deck list, and UU isn't an excuse unless you don't know how to use Mind's Desire.

[heiner]

@breathweapon: You were using unappropriate language so I condescended to your niveau. Your last post provided some arguments though, so I think we can set this point aside.

People dont seem to understand how Time Walk actually functions. TimeWalk in the first seven accompanied with a mox is actually the PERFECT possible play as you virtually make your 60 card deck a 59 card deck. It basically cycles for free. Imagine the following card:

Better Bauble
cc: 0
t: Sacrifce Better Bauble to draw a card.

Anybody would play this as a 4of as it would virtually make your deck a 56 card deck. You don't have to do anything broken with TW, its good enough if you can just cycle it. Topdecking Time Walk in Topdeck mode if you have 2 mana availlable is therefore perfect!

This argumentation suggests that TW should be a must include in every deck. Everybody knows that this is not the case due to the fact that TW has disadvantages which may outweigh the benefits. First of all it complicates mulligan decisions as you dont know the 7th card. Secondly it doesn't cycle in you storm turn which can be anoying sometimes.

Considering these arguments it can be said that TW is questionable in this build. Nevertheless, I am convinced that it is MUCH better than windfall though and on par with Desire. I wouldn't stop anybody who wants to cut it and personally readded it mostly because of the oath SB. Nevertheless after a lot of testing it remains at least decent.

Desire: Definitely a strong card but it really doesn't fit into the game plan. This deck plays so differently compared to TPS where Desire shines but its hard to specify the correct arguments. The double UU indeed hurts as this means that you need 3 lands in play. This deck never has 3 lands in play and wants to win turn 2. The bottom line argument against it is, that I have pitched it to FOW much more often than the Time Walk.

I would be realy surprised if somebody had tested this deck  for >30 real opponent games and would still say that Desire is a bomb card!

[BreathWeapon]

Inapproprirate language? "So, so wrong" and "Janky" are hardly inappropriate, but I digress

I understand the function of Time Walk in combo, I just think its awful from two years of experience with it. I don't feel like I'm playing a deck with 59 cards in it, I feel like I'm playing a deck with one less threat in it. If your experience speaks otherwise, I'll just leave the point to be decided upon by those who pick up the deck.

I understand the deck is not TPS, however it can and does assume the role of TPS at times. Look at the presence of Mind's Desire in Grim Long. Grim Long uses a golden manabase, making it more vulnerable to Wasteland, the same number of lands and the same amount of acceleration, with the exception of Crop Rotation (and Long used Mind's Desire before Crop Rotation was included). Neverthless, it still uses Mind's Desire despite an unstable manabase and a more aggressive approach to storm combo. "Litz Long" with its mana base and disruption is capable of slow playing Mind's Desire versus Mana Drains and Fish, the same technique used in TPS. Yet this deck should completely disregard the card despite being better suited to use it than Grim Long? Mind's Desire in hand the starting hand is amazing when it is set up with Imperial Seal or Vampiric Tutor for Black Lotus for the second turn. Despite UU being difficult, you will often find Sapphire, Jet, Lotus Petal or Tolarian Academy to make casting it possible.

Doesn't something seem illogical about removing the card from the deck?

[nicofromtokyo]

>BreathWeapon

I personnally agree with all the arguments you wrote about Mind's Desire.

But I must say that the card just doesn't fit the deck plan.

It may be broken, but if I have 6 mana to spend for a spell that hardly will give me access to Yagwin or ToA (the only 2 cards you wanna see), I would prefer having a Tutor instead. In TPS, you have a lot of Draw7, Wish, Recoup, Gifts... In Litz's deck, you have more chance to get mana, mana and maybe a tutor. If you have 6 mana in your pool, that means you already casted Rituals x 2-3, so instead of playing Mind's Desire, just cast Grim Tutor for Yawgwin and the poucentage of winning should be higher. Of course, Mind's Desire might be completly broken, you may cast it for Rituals x 3, Duress, Ygwin and ToA, but I think in total after 100 games, you should have prefered something that gives you access to the card at 100%, rather than a card that may give you access to something that may make you win the game.

[Gabethebabe]

Inapproprirate language? "So, so wrong" and "Janky" are hardly inappropriate, but I digress

"There's no need to be a sarcastic ass" I find quite inappropriate.

I have never had problems with Walk in combo. I actually like it in the early game, allowing an extra land drop.
Frequently I´m combo-ing and I see that I´m not going to make it, because the last draw spell didn´t get me the cards I wanted.
So I Walk, untap all my mana and try again.

The argument that it makes your mulligans more difficult is just nonsense. Brainstorm is the card that makes the mulligan decisions tough, not Time Walk.
We all know the mana light/heavy hands that contain a Brainstorm. Brainstorm into nothing and you lose. Brainstorm into the shiznit and you are da man.

[BreathWeapon]

"@breathweapon: Windfall is uber crap. Its such a bad Topdeck its not even funny. Oh and yes sitting there with some fetchlands waiting to finally ramp up to 4 mana (SoR) beeing able to play that Hurkyls Recall, without the  possibility of searching for it COTV(1) and getting caped every turn (welder+cap) is such a good idea! I can see that you have tested my deck and esp. the stax matchup thoroughly."

No, that entire comment makes you sound like a sarcastic ass, and you had no justification for challenging my understanding of the stax match up.

Blaming Brainstorm for poor mulligans is nonsense, Time Walk has been removed from combo on the mulligan argument from Storm and Dragon before, by precedent alone it is quite a sound decision. I have never won a game casting Time Walk, in combo, I have won many games casting Mind's Desire and Windfall. Time Walk is garbarge.

[heiner]

@breathweapon: You put up some statements in a arrogant way with not a single argument to back it up. You later called me an asshole.  In consequence i wrote my "sarcastic" posting. Stop acting like a crybaby. If you offend somebody with your language you'll be treated the same way in return. Thats how it works.

Regarding Minds Desire: Breath weapon had some good points but nico perfectly described the problems of Desire. If you would have tested the deck you would come to the same conclusion. The crop Rotation actually matters as it fetches Tolarian which is the only way to cast desire besides lotus.

Time Walk can make the mulligan decions harder, at least a little bit. But i also think that it is playable.

I tested the deck another 15 times last night and 3 times i had the TW  it was golden. One initial seven was composed of Necro, Jet, Usea, fetch, Timewalk which allowed first turn Necro. In another game it cycled for free doing nothing significantly, in the 3rd game I double walked/ancestraled with Y'Will to set up a massive chain of Vapor/artifact kill.

I have tested perplex but Intuition is better as it can fetch both mana or grim tutors. 

[Phele]

Puh, Breathweapon, your whole language is completely unacceptable: "Ass, garbage, nonsense", I can see nothing productive in these words. They lead the discussion to nothing else but flame wars. Could you pls just stop it? You disqualify youself as a respectable poster.

On topic: It's hard to compare Time Walk with Mind's Desire or Windfall, as these cards fill out totally different roles. Sure can Desire and Windfall win you the game (althoug Windfall often doesn't, cause it often doesent draw more cards than mediation, helps Welder-Decks and had been cut from almost any combo deck for that reasons). But there are enough other cards in Heiners Deck that can do the same the better way.

Time Walk is more an combo-preparer like Duress or Force of Will and has nothing in common with Windfall and Co. So what should be discussed is the number of combo-creparers and bombs in the deck, when you have to choose between Time Walk and Desire/Windfall.

I tend to Time Walk.

[sean1i0]

In my personal experience, Time Walk has been amazing in combo; that combo has always been Original Long, DeathLong or GrimLong, but the point is that I have had many games where I won, essentially on the first turn, because of time walk.  I've also had other games where I didn't win on the first turn, but shortly thereafter greatly aided by time walk.  I cannot think of a card I would rather in that slot in Long.  Of course, the same can (obviously) be said of Mind's Desire, which is one of my absolute favorites cards ever, and even Windfall.

Like I said though, my experience has been with Long, but I felt that I should defend time walk's worth in combo.

[Harlequin]

my combo experiance does not go beyond oldschool TPS.  But I will say, I always cut Time walk from TPS.  The problem I found with it was that It was good early, but often was more than worthless while I was going off.  Now TPS a different animal, my theory on the deck was "TPS doesn't try and win the FIRST turn it can, It trys to win the LAST turn it can, before your opponent wins/locks you."  I don't know If I'm right about that or not, I was more of a noob when I was playing that deck. 

A card that I particularly loved that I added to my TPS pile was Candelabra of Twanos.  I found it was insane with the big T-Cad but even without he insane-U-mana combo, It was a great way of Turning off colored moxen into U and B mana.  TPS was much more color hungry then current Tendrils decks on the market.  If I had candelabra out, then my main plan was go for Minds Desire, because I know I would have the mana for it.

Another card that we don't see much of is Chain of Vapor.  This card also used to win me games flat out.  Its ability to turn tapped lands into untapped moxen and storm count is good in my book.

Although, tendrils has really evolved into a different beast.  So perhaps my comments are dated by now.

[BreathWeapon]

Crop Rotation is a significant accelerant in Long, Death Long and Grim Long for casting Mind's Desire, however Mind's Desire was still put to good effect in Long before Crop Rotations inclusion, it appeared in Death Long, and in TPS. The card is being undersold based on your particular play style rather than its actual validity in the deck, there's more than Crop Rotation and Black Lotus to support casting Mind's Desire;  Mox Sapphire, Mox Jet, Lotus Petal and even Lion's Eye Diamond. "If you would have tested the deck," isn't a defense to the removal of Mind's Desire; I have the same 60 cards in front of me.

"You put up some statements in a arrogant way with not a single argument to back it up. You later called me an asshole.  In consequence i wrote my "sarcastic" posting. Stop acting like a crybaby. If you offend somebody with your language you'll be treated the same way in return. Thats how it works."

No, I made statements based on what I believe are truisms from experience with storm combo that have been accepted in the past and thus didn't need a significant argument to support them You need to give the reasoning for removing Mind's Desire from storm combo when its presence in the deck is accepted as a standard (submiting the deck doesn't make you an authority on storm combo). Then, in return, I'm greated with sarcasm, after which I used "sarcastic ass" and not ass hole in reply. What's more, offending some one with no intent to do so in this post;

"Removing Mind's Desire and Windfall over Time Walk just seems so, so wrong. Mind's Desire is one of the strongest cards in the deck versus control as long as your willing to slow play into it (which is fine against CS). Even Windfall, despite being god awful at times, is still better in the first seven than Time Walk can ever be, IMO.

Boarding into Oath seems janky, with 6 fetch lands and 2 basics sitting on Hurkyl's Recall and waiting to go off seems like the appropriate plan of action. Also, I'm pretty sure that Flooded Strand is the appropriate secondary fetch land, as blue mana is more important than black mana for setting up the combo."

and subsequently retaliating with sarcasm and an ad homonym defense of Mind's Desire is childish. You could have simply reported the post to a moderator if you felt it was inappropriate. That said, I'm equally guilty of retaliating in the same manner, and thus I propose a moderator clean up the thread and we be done with this bickering.