necro and DSC

[BigMac]

I have a necro in play, set aside 9 cards and 1 of those is DSC. I choose to discard it. I have had different judges rule this in a different way. What happens with DSC, can i choose to reshuffle or remove it, or is it removed always.

[Harlequin]

Both are considered a Replacement effect, replaceing the same event.

The rules say, you may choose which effect you would like to apply.  Most player choose to reshuffle the colosus, but you could infact choose to RFG him if you need / want / are slaved to.

This also often comes up if you casting Thirst for Knowledge durring a Yawgmoths Will turn.  The same rule applies.

[BigMac]

Than the same judge that s***ed me the tournament before has done it again. I am beginning to suspect he is not liking me to much.

[Fubar]

  I thought when you TFK during a will turn, since the DSC does not go to the grave the shuffle option does not happen, thus he is removed from game?

[LordHomerCat]

DSC never goes to the grave ( barring ridiculous stuff like humbles), but rather has a replacement effect.  If you notice, Yawg Will and DSC both try to replace the same thing (IF a card would go to the yard / If this card would go to the yard), so the player who controls the DSC gets to pick which gets applied.  Again, replacement vs triggered.  If you discarded something with a Triggered ability when it hit the yard (like if you milled a Gaea's Blessing on a will turn), you don't get to trigger that effect, as there is only one replacement effect, so that one wins out, and the cards never hit the grave.  DSC != Triggered (or you could weld him in and other stupid things).

[Eddie]

Both are considered a Replacement effect, replaceing the same event.

I'm still baffled by this. I know the whole "multiple replacement effect of the same event, the owner chooses which one happens" stuff, but the necro replaces the discard event, whilst the colossus replaces the "put into a graveyard" event. This is hardly the same event is it not? When you have 9 cards, you have to discard, which is replaced by necro. Colossus doesn't replace the discard now does he? His replacement effect only happens if it would go to the graveyard. But it never does because necro happens before that can happen IMHO.

As I see it, thirst during will is entirely different. You have 2 "If x would be put into a graveyard" events (colossus and will), so if you thirst, you can choose which one happens. Same for discarding EOT colossus when will was played.

Anyway, it didn't affect the game state at that time, and I'm still sorry I called that Judge. As I've witnessed several times before, he makes some strange calls now and then.

[Khahan]

I'm still baffled by this. I know the whole "multiple replacement effect of the same event, the owner chooses which one happens" stuff, but the necro replaces the discard event, whilst the colossus replaces the "put into a graveyard" event. This is hardly the same event is it not? When you have 9 cards, you have to discard, which is replaced by necro. Colossus doesn't replace the discard now does he? His replacement effect only happens if it would go to the graveyard. But it never does because necro happens before that can happen IMHO.

Actually, that's a good point and a decent argument. By your line of thinking, the [card]necromancy[/card] makes you take a card from your hand and RFG it before it would ever go to the graveyard so the even the [card]dark steel colossus[/card] replaces never happens.  It makes some sense.

This is the closest thing I could find to refute it and I believe it is the basis of the 'same event' argument. The definition of 'discard' is:

    *  G4.12a - A player discards a card by putting a card from his or her hand into his or her graveyard. By default, effects that cause a player to discard a card allow the affected player to choose which card to discard. Some effects, however, require a random discard or allow another player to choose which card is discarded. [CompRules 2003/10/01]

The event, taken as a whole single event (which is what 1 discard is) involves placing the card in the graveyard. Discarding a card IS placing it in the graveyard, which IS what DSC replaces.

[Eddie]

I'm still baffled by this. I know the whole "multiple replacement effect of the same event, the owner chooses which one happens" stuff, but the necro replaces the discard event, whilst the colossus replaces the "put into a graveyard" event. This is hardly the same event is it not? When you have 9 cards, you have to discard, which is replaced by necro. Colossus doesn't replace the discard now does he? His replacement effect only happens if it would go to the graveyard. But it never does because necro happens before that can happen IMHO.

Actually, that's a good point and a decent argument. By your line of thinking, the [card]necromancy[/card] makes you take a card from your hand and RFG it before it would ever go to the graveyard so the even the [card]dark steel colossus[/card] replaces never happens.  It makes some sense.

This is the closest thing I could find to refute it and I believe it is the basis of the 'same event' argument. The definition of 'discard' is:

    *  G4.12a - A player discards a card by putting a card from his or her hand into his or her graveyard. By default, effects that cause a player to discard a card allow the affected player to choose which card to discard. Some effects, however, require a random discard or allow another player to choose which card is discarded. [CompRules 2003/10/01]

The event, taken as a whole single event (which is what 1 discard is) involves placing the card in the graveyard. Discarding a card IS placing it in the graveyard, which IS what DSC replaces.

Yeah, a friend told me to read necro as "If you would put a card from you hand in your graveyard, remove that card from the game instead.". Makes a lot more sense combined with the colossus now. I can see how the 2 replace the same event. I always acted like there was a point between announcing which card to discard and actually putting it in my graveyard, hence the confusion. Thanks for the info.