Mono Red Goblins: Viable?

[themeek]

Hey everyone, I am brand new to TMD, but have heard great things.  I have a certain partiallity for goblins and have always tried to hack it in vintage with FCG.  Recently the FC combo portion of the deck seems to be becoming less and less useful.  My question is are goblins viable in vintage without FC.  Here is a decklist that I have been tinkering with, any suggestions/comments would be greatly appreciated.

 Creatures

2 Skirk Prospector
3 Goblin Vandal
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Recruiter
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
2 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Goblin Matron
3 Goblin Warchief
3 Goblin Ringleader
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker

Spells

3 Red Elemental Blast
4 Tormod's Crypt

Mana Sources

9 Mountain
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus

Side Board

1 Skirk Prospector
4 Pyroblast
3 Rack and Ruin
3 Mogg Fanatic
4 Null Rod

Generally the meta around here is pretty combo intensive, Oath owns my soul (help!)...hrmmm have I missed anything.  Am I a fool or no?  Looking forward to critique.

Shout out to the guy that built the FCG deck this is modeled after. (to lazy to check up the name, should be obvious)

[warble]

Cut the tormod's crypts for 4 aether vials.  That just took me out in a top 8 match.  It's like having 8 lackeys in the control matchup.  If you're expecting combo infested metas then your build is better.

[themeek]

Hrmmmm...  I have tried out the vials and I always seem to lean toward some type of maindeck hate over them.  I never really found them to help me out that much.  Then again control isn't huge over here. 

On another note, do you goblin players still find Sharpshooter necessary?  His usefulness seems to be really waning, comments? 

[Implacable]

This deck will beat some decks and lose to others.  That's really the problem that I have with Goblins; your starts are so consistent that you know almost exactly what you'll do, and the only way for your opponent to change the predetermined outcome of a match is to get the nuts.  In other words, if it is a match you already lose, you will, and if it's a match that you win, then they can squeak out with some luck.  If your metagame is heavy on control and your dream matchup, Suicide Black, by all means, play Gobbos.  If there's combo, however, don't do it.

[UR]

Goblin Bombardment helps against Oath although it isn't the end of the world for them. But at least you'll have a little more reach and you may be able to keep the big flying women of the table.

[frolll]

I guess that you sooooo wanna do turn one Lackey into turn two dropping Siege-Gang Commander then something like Vandal...

So, I couldn't see a raison to maindeck kiki-jiki, as I don't see why you're playing a single Shapshooter. I guess your deck should be not bad, sure, because it can put really hard pressure on an opponent, but 4 tormod's crypt are too much, as the 3 REB seems very odd to me. IMHO they should be 3 Null Rod and 3 Shatterstorm, for md answer to Chalice of the Void. That should leave you with a slot for an additionnal Warchief/Matron/Ringleader, putting the count of one of them you wanna see the most to 4.

Vials can be great, but they aren(t tech if you gonna go playing Rods md.

And, BTW, check out my Thread on Pink Taiga.

I'm pretty enthusiast with aggro in actual Vintage.

[UR]

Shatterstorm costs four mana... this deck doesn't produce four mana in time to deal with important cards. Besides, it is a sorcery, if you are worried about CotV, you should just use Rack and Ruin instead.

I'm pretty enthusiast with aggro in actual Vintage.

So am I, but over here you just can't unless you go the hate-route. Combo vs. aggro is just sad for the aggro player.

[Harlequin]

I would say, cut the Recruiter.  He's not worth his wieght once you've cut foodchain.  Also Sharpshooter is strictly a SB card.  Gempalm is insane.  He's uncounterable, Un-Tinisphereable,  creature kill... Who draws you a card!  If you need him to pump piledrivers he can be a 2/1 beater when nessisary.  Definately go up to 4 matrons, and add a welder.  He's your answer to Tinker.

-4 Recruiter
-1 Sharpshooter

4 Gempalm (+2)
4 Matron (+1)
4 Warchief (+1)
1 Goblin Welder (+1)

For your meta slot, Go with 4 Tormod's Crypts (like you did) or 4 Null Rods.  And Then put the other in the board.

As for answers to oath, goblin bombardment is rough... and generally you will not be able to get lethal "deal 1 damage" pings before they find an echoing truth.  I think the best answer you can find is [card]Karakas[/card].  It is an extremely narrow card, but at the same time... Its uncounterable, reusable, un-bounceable, and puts the card to hand rather than in yard or worse, in the library.  If you think [card]Karakas[/card] is too narrow, then Maze of Ith is a possiblity, but I think any aggro deck running maze of ith is foolish... You want them to NOT have blockers.

@Froll:  Kiki on the main is great.  If you use matron to find him, you can continue to copy the matron turn in and turn out.  This is why Recruiter is obsolete.  You have better ways of getting creatures without stacking your deck.  If you want to run 4 recruiters in mono red, run full accelleration (mox, sol, vault, etc...) and 2-3 Goblin Charbelchers.  (play a recruiter, stack the deck, and belch for like 10-15 and hit a mountian for double dmg). 
Shattering Storm? are you kidding?  Even Rack and Ruin is a bit outdated.  Shattering Spree or [card]Pulverize[/card] are you answers to artifacts.

[UR]

As for answers to oath, goblin bombardment is rough... and generally you will not be able to get lethal "deal 1 damage" pings before they find an echoing truth.  I think the best answer you can find is Karakas.  It is an extremely narrow card, but at the same time... Its uncounterable, reusable, un-bounceable, and puts the card to hand rather than in yard or worse, in the library.

It is easier for them to find a strip than a bounce effect. Also, it is only better against the decks playing the two white angels. There are still quite a few decks out there they play Colossus and/or Platinum.

[Harlequin]

It is easier for them to find a strip than a bounce effect. Also, it is only better against the decks playing the two white angels. There are still quite a few decks out there they play Colossus and/or Platinum.

Karakas still enables you to attack freely.  So your opponent only has say... 3-4 turns to find a strip effect.  With bombardment it could take you 15 turns to deal 20 dmg.  Also If they've already oathed then Karakas as a topdeck can retro-actively solve your problem.  As for Colossus and plats, I've already advocated that the deck should run 4 Matrons and at least 1 welder on the main.  Also upping the Gempalm count gives you an uncounterable way to kill Plats.

[UR]

Three or four turns is still an eternity in this format. But the fact that Karakas is a 'retroactive solution' is a valid arguement though. But how many are you going to play? Four? It is non-fetchable so you'll have to cut creatures or maybe one land for it.

[Harlequin]

If three or four turns is an eternity ... how long is 15??  Bombarment doesn't win you the game, It just is a minor peppering while your opponent finds a bounce spell.  Here is how I would adjust the deck:

Mana: 23 Sources (18 lands, 5 artifact)
3  Wooded
2  Bloodstained
4  Waste
1  Strip
8  Mountains
1  Lotus
1  Mana crypt
1  Ruby
1  Chrome Mox
1  Lotus petal

Stable Gobs: 29 (26 stable, 3 matron targets)
4  Lackey
3  Vandals
4  Piledriver
4  Matron
4  Warchief
4  Gempalm
3  Ringleader
1  Kikijiki
1  Siegegang
1  Goblin welder

Control Plan: 8
4  Tormod's Crypt
2  Pyroblast
2  Red elemental blast

Sideboard: 15
4  Null Rod
4  Pyro/Reb
2  Pulverize
2  Shattering Spree (or 2 goblin welder)
3  Karakas

[UR]

That is true (about the 15 turns), but what you should also look at is the fact that Goblin Bombardment actually does something in matches other than vs. Oath. You can sacrifice your guys with damage on the stack and kill some small guys on the opposing side.

How are the Maindecked Crypts working out? Wouldn't Null Rod be more useful all round? I know it eats into your mana base, but it beats up on the manabase of combo decks (the biggest problem for this deck).

[Harlequin]

Well, I haven't played this deck at a tourny in 'forever and a day.'  But It's really a meta call.  you have 4 slots in the board and the main for either Null Rod Main, Tormod's side ... or Tormod's main, null Rod side.  The original poster chose the later, So I was just assumeing they had a meta reason for this inclusion.  Ichorid Is hot is some meta's.  Tormod's and null rod are equally good solutions to Slaver, Gifts, and IT... give or take a few scenario's.  I guess I think Tormod's is better on the main because it is 100% better than null rod against ichoid and threshold based decks (wich are on the rise) and it comes down slightly faster against Yawgwill based combo decks.  But then again Null Rod is better against the field, and stops rogue style decks like Affinity or Staff/Worker Combo... so there is that to consider as well.

So it's really all meta.  Bring your 4 Null Rods, and your 4 Tormods and decide when you get there which is MD and which is SB.

Edit:  To address the Bombardment against stompy decks... I think 4 gemplams on the main should be enough to equalize the field.  I love gemplam because his power grows in dirrect correlation with the gamestate.  Early game he deals 1 or 2 damage where it counts (welders and confidants).  Late game he can oblitterate a Juggernaught, Trike, Plats, Negator, boosted Wearbear.  All the while he is UNCOUTERABLE (Save stifle) and Draws a card to replace himself.

[themeek]

@ Harlequin
I really like some of your ideas.  The welder with four matrons is really good as are Pulverize and Spree vs. Rack and Ruin, all definite additions.  I am going to definitely try out the four Gempalms as well.  Of late there have been times where my only out is a Gempalm, another great thing about them is that if it is late enough in the game he stops dragon! 

This brings me to another question:
Playing dragon, if I have a Tormod's up and running and at least seven gobos, Gempalm in hand, what is the best course of action? 
I am pretty sure Gempalm first, but I just wanted confirmation.

The one thing that I disagreed with (not totally, I will try it) was the Recruiter being obsolete.  I find that I rely on the Recruiter to keep my opponent under heavy pressure at all times; mind you, before stacking a large amount I make sure I have another Recruiter or Matron in hand for the shuffle effect.  Plus with the early game, Recruiter practically guarantees that you are going to have a Lackey on-line, good vs control or other aggro.

P.S. I actually picked up some Karakasiseses today, in the process of testing them, Bombardment and Ith against Oath. 
I'll let you guys know how it goes.

[Harlequin]

Recruiter is more of a combo card.  He enabled the insanity Food chain 50 damage from nothing attack.  Without food chain he only gives you marginal potential.  Same goes for ringleader, wich Is why I think 3 is fine.  Without food chain your looking for consistancy and your looking for pure power and speed.  I think Kiki-jiki + Matron is the best engin your going to get.  Matron + Recruiter clearly gives you no synergy.  If it makes you comforable, just run one recruiter, and use the kiki to copy him (and stack for the short-term).  Without Foodchain and 4 Ringleaders theres no reason you should ever stack more than say... 5 goblins.  You cannot burn off a stack of 20 goblins like you can under a foodchain.  However a well placed Stripmine + darkblast, and you could loose the game outright by playing a recruiter too greedily.   Your typical matron play looks something like:

Turn 1:  Mountain -> Lacky
Turn 2:  Land 2...  Lacky, drop Matron.  Search Kiki-Jiki. (play extra goblin with 2 untapped land)
Turn 3:  Lacky, drop Kiki-jiki, Copy Matron, Search for Piledriver.  Post combat play piledriver
Turn 4:  copy Piledriver swing with 2+2 drivers for: 10.

That is extremely weak... but It is only considering an opening hand of 1 Lacky, 2 land, 1 matron.  If the other cards are mana acceleration and warchiefs and whatnot... your golden.   But it is generally how you want to be thinking about matron.  Matron gets Kiki-jiki... who makes more matrons.  Savy?

Kiki-Jiki Enables insane plays from all your creatures, But the definate MVPs of cloneing:
Matron (as mentioned)
Siegegang Commander (good luck stompy)
Ring Leader (when you need to bulk up your hand)
Recruiter (for getting 1 or 2 gobs when they matter most)
Pile Driver (for turning a sub-lethal swing lethal)


As for WGD.  If you use tormods crypt, you clear the graveyard and stop the combo, If you use Gempalm you Clear there BOARD and stop the combo.  Heres how:

WGD comes into play:  He puts a trigger on the stack that says "Remove all other Perminants you control from the game."
While that trigger is on the stack you Incinorate the Dragon.  He is put into the graveyard.  Now a new trigger goes on the stack that is ABOVE the other trigger so, Now the stack looks like:
[top - first to resolve]
Return all cards that were RFGed by WGD to play
Remove all your crap from the Game
[Bottom of stack]

So as you resolve this stack, first you return an amazing NO permenants.  Then Remove your board from the game.  WGD is still in the graveyard.  But now they have no lands, no mox, no bazaars. And if you have 6 goblins you ought to be winning next turn =P

[UR]

This brings me to another question:
Playing dragon, if I have a Tormod's up and running and at least seven gobos, Gempalm in hand, what is the best course of action? 
I am pretty sure Gempalm first, but I just wanted confirmation.

I play Dragon quite often and I'm not very scared of Tormod's Crypt. Then again, I'm not scared of Gemplam either because you'll need to set up quite a bit and I'm usually fast enough to race that. Should the situation occur however, I think you should activate the Crypt first. It is what I'll be expecting and all my resource gathering goes into playing around the Crypt. Gempalm won't even be on my mind (I know it can happen, but it isn't something that happens very often). Once I feel comfortable that I've got enough resources to play around the Crypt, I'll go for it. You'll make me expend a lot more than I should and if you Gempalm then (uncounterable) I will have lost a whole lot more.

[Harlequin]

That is an extremely good point.  I was thinking about the two plays in terms of rules.  but you should use the "Visible" Crypt before you use the "invisible" Gemplam.  Becasue as UR outlined, they will see the tormod's crypt and build a way to work around it.  So use the crypt first then the gempalm to stop the second attempt. 

[themeek]

Sorry for not being very clear: I knew the rulings for both scenarios I just wanted to see what people would do if they had the choice between the two.  I had thought that using the Gempalm first would be better, your opponent has no board, but UR makes a good point: most WGD players are only going to get slightly slowed down by the Crypt and if they're are any good can play around it.  So the proper course of action seems to be do what they are expecting, than if possible surprise them with the Gempalm.

@Harlequin
I agree with some of what you say, but game one sometimes it is almost impossible to resolve a Lackey:
Turn 1: Mountain -> Lackey <- FOWed
(This really changes my game plan.  Depending on what is in hand it is usually not a bad idea to do something like this.)
Turn 2: 2nd Land -> Recruiter.... Stacking: Lackey, Lackey, Ringleader, Lackey, Matron, Kiki, Warchief
With this stack depending on what happens you have most bases covered, if the first two Lackeys are prevented from coming on-line then the Ringleader could possibly be a dead card.  If you are worried about this,
Stack: Lackey, Lackey, Lackey
Again both these scenarios are subjective to what is in hand.  If you have Kiki or a Siege Gang, I would say that this is almost the only good play.
Comments?

[Harlequin]

I realize that what you Recruite for is very dependant on the situation.  But by playing recruiter in that situation listed... It means you are commiting potentially your next 6 draws to drawing goblins.  If your oppnent then goes Underground Sea, Darkblast.  you loose.  Also creature, factory, again - you loose.  If you stack lightly then you don't need to predict what your opponent is going to play.  I see Recruiter as a foodchain card, or a Charbelcher alternate win card.  But in straight up Mono-red gobs, I guess I just have more faith in the deck giveing me what I need.  In the case of darkblast, I know my deck will give me a tormod's sometime in the near future, In the case of creatures I know I have matrons and gempalms to clear the board - The deck with give me what I need so long as I don't pile gobs all over it.  As a 1-of? sure.  As a 4-of, you have no real use for that many... hes just a cheaper matron who topdecks a card rather than get it right into your grip... who has the additional "oops I loose" factor.

Recruiter will only work if you play him Hyper-Conservatively.  And if your going to run a card that you are forced to play at sub-optimal potential.... why even run that card??  Why not give yourself more consistancy in your goblins (4 warchief, 4 matron, 4 gemplam).  If you do that, then you know what to expect from game to game.

[UR]

I agree with Harlequin that non-Foodchain builds shouldn't use Recruiter as a 4-of. It is good as a late game card to gain some cardadvantage (stacking 5 goblins, beginning with a Ringleader) but if that is about all it does, you don't want to play four. Running two is probably enough (if not too much).

[themeek]

Good points both of you.  I am starting to see your reasoning and agree with it.  I think my reliance on Recruiter is partly because of my long history with Food Chain.  Testing with no Recruiters right now.

What do you guys think about Spawning Pool against Oath?
*EDIT* Sorry guys I meant Spawning Pit, not Pool.
A thousand apologies.

[UR]

My brother and I were reading the text on Spawning Pool and just stared at it for a while, not sure where you were headed with this. What is it supposed to do against Oath? They are going to give you little men anyway with Forbidden Orchard. Am I missing something?

[Harlequin]

I think he ment Spawning Pit.  In which case I think it is strictly worse bombardment for any deck running red or a red splash.  If your going to put a card in your board to fight ONLY oath, I would say that Karakas is the way to go.  Meekstone is another card I really thought about putting in the board.  But here Is what I decided.  Lets break down the oath creatures:

Akroma:  Karakas
Razia: Karakas, gemplam @ 6, meekstone + Gempalm @ 3.
Irridecent Angel: Meekstone
Pristene Angel: Nothing
DSC: Welder
Trike/Ancient Hydra: nothing much you can do.
Blazing Archon: gemplam @ 6, meakstone
Platinum Angel: Gemplam @ 4, Welder

Other Uses:
Karakas - None.
Bombardment - None
Meekstone - Shop Agro
Welder - Any artifact deck
Gempalm - 'any' creature matchup.  doubles as a beater.

[themeek]

Here is my updated decklist after some play testing and help from you guys:

Creatures (32)

1 Goblin Welder (Brilliant)
3 Skirk Prospector
3 Goblin Vandal
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Matron
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Warchief
3 Goblin Ringleader
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker

Other Shit (5)

3 R.E.B.
2 Shattering Spree

Mana Sources (23)

8 Mountain
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Lotus Petal
1 Chrome Mox
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt

Sideboard (15)

1 Skirk Prospector
4 Pyroblast
2 Shattering Spree
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Null Rod

With this build I abandoned trying to hate out Oath: all the shit that I tested seemed sub-par and not worth a slot MD or SB.  The MD Welder is brilliant (just finished play testing against a mono-brown Stax deck), I am considering switching the SB Sprees for another two Welders.  The Gempalms were great, but I think that four might be a little too much.

*EDIT* Forgot to mention the lack of Recruiters.  As soon as I tested without them, I realized how useless they really were.  Having the Recruiters in the deck had me making sub-par plays.  Now that they are gone I am playing a lot tighter, Kiki/Matron is more than enough and superior in many ways.

Comments on the new build? 

[themeek]

I know that very few people here care about goblins, but I would really like to get some more discussion going on them.  What seems to be a better build: Mono Red Gobs, or FC Gobs?

[Hillboy]

FCG gives you things that monored goblins can not do, thats why people like it. FCG has the ability to combo off and swing for tons of damage and can restack and do it again.

However all goblin decks are terrible versus oath just accept it.

On whether or not which is better I don't really know, goblins are a different breed.

My brother plays goblin sligh though and runs 4 goblin tinkerer in addition to goblin vandal. Giving him more artifact hate.

[Kieranwolf]

Here is my updated decklist after some play testing and help from you guys:

Creatures (32)

1 Goblin Welder (Brilliant)
3 Skirk Prospector
3 Goblin Vandal
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Matron
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Warchief
3 Goblin Ringleader
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker

Other Shit (5)

3 R.E.B.
2 Shattering Spree

Mana Sources (23)

8 Mountain
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Lotus Petal
1 Chrome Mox
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt

Sideboard (15)

1 Skirk Prospector
4 Pyroblast
2 Shattering Spree
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Null Rod

With this build I abandoned trying to hate out Oath: all the shit that I tested seemed sub-par and not worth a slot MD or SB.  The MD Welder is brilliant (just finished play testing against a mono-brown Stax deck), I am considering switching the SB Sprees for another two Welders.  The Gempalms were great, but I think that four might be a little too much.

*EDIT* Forgot to mention the lack of Recruiters. As soon as I tested without them, I realized how useless they really were. Having the Recruiters in the deck had me making sub-par plays. Now that they are gone I am playing a lot tighter, Kiki/Matron is more than enough and superior in many ways.

Comments on the new build? 

Have you thought about Goblin Grenade? It makes a great finisher and is faster than flinging goblins the Siege-Gang way. Don't laugh. Try it.

You actually seem to be heavy on creatures compared to many lists I've seen and faced. Perhaps some burn to add red's own brand of control elements?

You definitely want to have either Crypt or Rod in the main deck, dude. Rod has been much better for me personally because I usually face Gifts or CS, while Crypt is mostly for slowing down Dragon. Sure, run three if you need an extra spot. That's usually ok.

Lightning Bolts may be a good idea. At least they'd make you less vulnerable to creature hate. Plus, they rock in the mirror match just like good old Mogg Fanatic.

Also, why only one SiegeGang Commander? Don't you want to drop them with Lackey really bad?

[Harlequin]

I like Tomod's simply because of the Rash of Ichorid and IT that has been spreading.  I think IT has to work harder to play around Crypt because you can use it in response to a bounce spell... where null rod just sits around and lets them accumulate while they use any of thier 12ish tutors to find one of the 3ish maindeck artifact bouncers (note these numbers are not really based on decklists but more from memory and possiblity... and even at that a bit of an exageration, sorry if that offends anyone-- but at least I'm honest about my fact bending). 

Also Null rod does worse than nothing against Ichorid.

As far as 1 SGC... why do you need more than 1?  4 Matrons + 1-ofs is better than 3 Matrons, 2 SGC, and some 1-ofs.  Lacky -> Matron -> situational gobling is the tech for Mono-Red.  SGC can be situationally worse than Kiki-Jiki and even more so than Goblin Welder, or even Warchief for that matter.   Lastly you can easily hardcast a matron to find a lackey, while Hardcasting a SGC can be difficult/Impossible esp in the early game.

[themeek]

If I was going to run more maindeck hate it would be Tormod's.  As for running more than 1 Siege-Gang, it is not needed.  P-Drivers are really the most important goblin, SG Commanders are really not that useful in most situations.