Starfletcher vs Ledgewalker! Can one block the other?

[LotusHead]

Silhana Starfletcher and Silhana Ledgewalker.

One can block as thought it had flying, the other can only be blocked by creatures with flying.

Can Starfletcher block Ledgewalker?

I "vote" it can, because if it matters, Starfletcher can block as though it DID have flying, even if it doesn't actually have flying.

My T2 friend (who deals with T2 judges in whatever events T2 players go to) said otherwise.  Technically I trust him to keep up on T2 rules more than me (T1 is my thing, and Giant Spiders are rarely played in T1), but we don't "know" definitavely...

Thanks in advance.

[4-bar-killa]

Yes a Starfletcher can block a Ledgewalker, because when you have to choose blockers, the creatures with spider ability has to be treated as creatures with flying, but only for blocker choosing. It never has flying at any game state (so it cant be targeted by Elvish Skysweeper for example).

[vartemis]

After reading both cards, I would say no, Skywalker cannot block.  Although it says it can block creatures with flying, it is not a flying creature.  Since the Ledgewalker can only be blocked by a creature that has flying, the Skywalker cannot be assigned as a blocker.  Essentially, Ledgewalker looks to see if the blocker has the word "flying" on it.  If not, it cannot block it.  It doesnt matter if an ability gives it the ability to block flying creatures.

j

Edit: Fixed wording on card.

Double Edit: Whoops, misread Skywalker.  I thought it said may block creatures with flying like 4-bar-killa said (spider ability).  Yes it can be blocked.

[Khahan]

After reading both cards, I would say no, Skywalker cannot block.  Although it says it can block as though it had flying, it is not a flying creature.  Since the Ledgewalker can only be blocked by a creature that has flying, the Skywalker cannot be assigned as a blocker.  Essentially, Ledgewalker looks to see if the blocker has the word "flying" on it.  If not, it cannot block it.  It doesnt matter if an ability gives it the ability to block as though it had flying.

j

Incorrect. From the rules:

#  G1.15a - Text that states a player or card may do something "as though" some condition were true applies only to the stated action. For purposes of that action, treat the game exactly as if the stated condition is true. For all other purposes, treat the game normally. [CompRules 2003/07/01]
Example: Giant Spider reads "Giant Spider may block as though it had flying." You may treat the Spider as a creature with flying, but only for the purpose of declaring blockers. This allows Giant Spider to block a creature with flying (and creatures that "can't be blocked except by creatures with flying"), assuming no other blocking restrictions apply. For example, Giant Spider can't normally block a creature with both flying and shadow. [CompRules 2003/12/01]


So yes, the starfletcher can block the ledgewalker.

[Mr. Nightmare]

This actually came up at my prerelease, and the judge ruled that the Skywalker WILL be able to block the Ledgewalker.  Skywalker may block as though it has flying.  Ledgewalker may only be blocked by creatures with flying.  Upon declaring blocks, it checks the legality.
 
Ledgewalker - "Do you have flying?" 
Skywalker - "Well, for the purposes of blocking (which is currently relevant) I do." 
Ledgewalker - "OK, I'm blocked."

If the text was "may block creatures with flying" it would be a totally different story.  One of those intricacies in the way things are worded.  At the prerelease, the Skywalker was in Russian, which made it even more ambiguous.

[vartemis]

Bah, I was editing my post when you guys answered.  I shouldnt do rules questions while at work, as customers take up my valuable time fixing my posts :lol:

j

[Nibble]

Just for confirmation, there's a ruling right on Ledgewalker's Gatherer page:

Feb 1, 2006 - Silhana Ledgewalker can be blocked by creatures that can block as though they had flying.

[LordHomerCat]

A small nitpicking thing:  its not, Starfletcher MAY block creatures as though it has flying.  Starfletcher DOES block as though it has flying.  So, if you have something that makes it so Flyers cannot block creatures without flying, then Starfletcher and other spiders CANNOT block non-flying creatures.  For blocking, he is treated just like a flyer, so Creatures that cannot be blocked by guys with flying cannot be blocked by the Starfletcher.

[LotusHead]

This actually came up at my prerelease, and the judge ruled that the Skywalker WILL be able to block the Ledgewalker.  Skywalker may block as though it has flying.  Ledgewalker may only be blocked by creatures with flying.  Upon declaring blocks, it checks the legality.
 
Ledgewalker - "Do you have flying?" 
Skywalker - "Well, for the purposes of blocking (which is currently relevant) I do." 
Ledgewalker - "OK, I'm blocked."

If the text was "may block creatures with flying" it would be a totally different story.  One of those intricacies in the way things are worded.  At the prerelease, the Skywalker was in Russian, which made it even more ambiguous.

Thanks guys, this was the best/clearest example yet.

[Gabethebabe]

It is funny how people start confusing names of cards into main characters of Star Wars movies.

This example actually came up in one of the Delphi tests.

Now change the scenario a bit: put a Lure on the Ledgewalker.

Is the Starfletcher obliged to block?
(I will not give the answer)

[4-bar-killa]

 I thought it said may block creatures with flying like 4-bar-kill said (spider ability).  Yes it can be blocked.

That is the spider ability. There is no "may" anymore on Spiders. And of course it doesn't matter. Even with a "may" it can block it (when the controller wants it). But now theres a little change with "can".

Now change the scenario a bit: put a Lure on the Ledgewalker.

Is the Starfletcher obliged to block?

Yes he has to block, because the "can" doesn't lets a choice like the "may" did in past times.

So lured Creature attacks. Blocker declaration, the Spider says "here I'm like a flying creature, I can block the Starfletcher." and Lure says "OK then you have to block it."

[Mr. Nightmare]

It is funny how people start confusing names of cards into main characters of Star Wars movies.

This example actually came up in one of the Delphi tests.

Now change the scenario a bit: put a Lure on the Ledgewalker.

Is the Starfletcher obliged to block?
(I will not give the answer)

I don't care what his name is, he walks in the sky.

[The Atog Lord]

So, Giant Spider may block as though he had flying.

How about if I Blaze of Glory him, and you have an oncoming Atog and a Yawgmoth's Demon, plus the Ledgewalker. Can be block as thoug he had flying and as though he did not have flying at once?

[LordHomerCat]

Why would it matter if he has flying in trying to block an atog?  Flying creatures can block non-flyers, no problem.  There is no reason he can't block all those creatures at once.

However, if, for instance, you attack with Atog, Gnat Alley Creeper (**), and Silhana Ledgewalker, and I have a Blaze of Gloried spider(*) of some sort, I cannot block the Creeper, although the other two are not getting past.

*:  Giant Spider: Creature, 2/4, 'Giant Spider can block as though it had flying.'
**: Gnat Alley Creeper: Creature, 3/1, 'Gnat Alley Creeper can’t be blocked by creatures with flying.'

(Source for Creeper ruling: Dissension FAQ http://66.253.188.188/dis_faq.html )

[Gabethebabe]

EDIT: What I state below is not true. But feel free to read it.

Yes he has to block, because the "can" doesn't lets a choice like the "may" did in past times.

So lured Creature attacks. Blocker declaration, the Spider says "here I'm like a flying creature, I can block the Starfletcher." and Lure says "OK then you have to block it."

I´m sorry, that is wrong.

A small nitpicking thing:  its not, Starfletcher MAY block creatures as though it has flying.  Starfletcher DOES block as though it has flying.  So, if you have something that makes it so Flyers cannot block creatures without flying, then Starfletcher and other spiders CANNOT block non-flying creatures.  For blocking, he is treated just like a flyer, so Creatures that cannot be blocked by guys with flying cannot be blocked by the Starfletcher.

And this is wrong too.

"Giant Spider may block as though it had flying" means: In the declare blockers step, the defending player decides how he treats his Giant Spider. As a creature that has flying or as a creature that has not.
In the lure example, the defending player may decide to NOT treat Giant Spider as a flying creature and therefore blocking of the flying attacker is not obligatory.

So, Giant Spider may block as though he had flying.

How about if I Blaze of Glory him, and you have an oncoming Atog and a Yawgmoth's Demon, plus the Ledgewalker. Can be block as thoug he had flying and as though he did not have flying at once?

Of course he can block all of them, because flying creatures can block non-flying creatures.

If you would have a creature attacking that says "Can not be blocked by flying creatures" and one that says "Can only be blocked by flying creatures" then the defending player must choose whether he treats his spider as a flying or as a nonflying creature and block accordingly. He can not block both.

[LordHomerCat]

Ahem, Oracle text on Giant Spider (and similar spider creatures):

"Giant Spider can block as though it had flying."

There is no MAY anymore.  It was one of the changes for 9th edition (even the 9th Giant Spider has the correct text).  In the past, you had a choice.  Now, spiders DO block like flyers, period, all the time.

Extra:  Directly from the rulings listed in Gatherer:
"Aug 1, 2005 - In the case of Giant Spider, the new wording results in a slight functional change: If Elvish Bard ("All creatures able to block Elvish Bard do so") with flying attacks, Giant Spider must block it. With the previous wording, Giant Spider's controller could choose that Giant Spider wasn't blocking as though it had flying and therefore can't block a flying creature."

If one more person quotes Giant Spider as "may block as though it had flying", I'm going to scream.

[Gabethebabe]

oops. I´m running behind on the rules....