Withholding Deck Lists

[forests failed you]

Nobody actually cares whether or not the decklists are witheld or made public.  To be perfectly honest, it doesn't really change anything with regard from how a major tournament plays out, and it isn't really going to give anybody that much of an advantage.  If the GWS, or ICBM, guys or whoever made that IT deck want to keep their "super secret tech" hidden until the day of SCG, who gives a flying monkey's ass?

I played against Endress playing IT in Richmond, I'd never heard of his/their IT deck before, I didn't know a damned thing about it; and it made very little difference; I smashed it anyways.  (no disrespect to Matt, he's a very strong player a really cool guy).  The point is, the deck is just like a TPS deck with a few Grim Longs and Intuitions in it.  I didn't really need to know the eight or nine cards they changed from TPS in order to play competently against their "new creation".  It is pretty easy to figure out actually, you just board in the cards that are good against generic storm decks, Duress the shit out of them, and don't let them go off. 

I think the problem is that certain people take Vintage MTG waaaayyyy to seriously.  The prizes are barely worth winning, (and by that I mean the traveling extended distances to events and having to cover gas, plane tickets, hotel, food, et cetera), so there really shouldn't be such a vested interest in winning, and secrecy, and all of that garbage. The focus should be comming to the events to hang out with your friends, play against some new people who don't live in your local neighborhood, and have some good times;  instead of approaching it as some kind of serious important event. Personally, I feel like teams and players who feel the need to keep their tech safeguarded, are kind of oozing with self impotence.  Especially, if they actually think that people would actually be lined up to rip off and play their newest, few card different, version of some old deck that has already existed for months, years, et cetera. 

I may kind of a loner on this one, but when I come up with a card or idea that I think is neat I post it in the threads and share it with everybody else.  It keeps new players, and casual vintage players interested and excited about the format to hear about new "tech."  I think it is good for the format to share and post results, insights, lists, ideas et cetera.  Talking about new ideas is fun, and it is what keeps TMD fresh. 

I'm not trying to beat up on the team that made up IT, or anything, I'm just saying that almost nobody actually cares whether or not people share their tech.  What I am saying, is that some of you guys should lighten up, and stop taking this stuff so seriously. 

 I've posted all of the lists I've played in major events days before I played them;  and most of the time I've made top 8.  Vroman has no problem with doing the same thing as well.  It doesn't matter if people know what you are playing, because if you are good you'll win regardless. 

The key point I'm leading up to with all of this rambling is that the quicker tech surfaces, the sooner more innovation can take place.  That is good for the format, its fun for the kiddies, and its interesting to talk about on line.

My vote is that if you play an interesting deck in a tournament and do well with it, one should write a report about it and let everybody know how techy they were.  Rather than act all secretive like one has completely reinvented the wheel, when one actually hasn't.  This pseudo rant isn't directed at any players specifically, but more to wards a general elitist and annoying attitude that lingers in the forums, and is spurned along by all the random team chest pounding and posturing. 
Its a card game played with friends, and yet half of the community acts like it is the fing Iron Curtain all over again.

[Methuselahn]

Oh man, and I thought most of my posts were ridiculous.  I have an excuse, I'm a terrible card player (well, at Magic anyway (casinos are a different matter ))

Nobody actually cares whether or not the decklists are witheld or made public.....who gives a flying monkey's ass?

Fantastic argument.  Nothing but facts backed up by consensus and polls.  Good jorb.

The point is, the deck [IT] is just like a TPS deck with a few Grim Longs and Intuitions in it.  I didn't really need to know the eight or nine cards they changed from TPS in order to play competently against their "new creation".  It is pretty easy to figure out actually, you just board in the cards that are good against generic storm decks, Duress the shit out of them, and don't let them go off.

 
Exactly.  It's easy.  Why even test??  Why even try to research information when it's going to be useless anyway.  Just win!  Just Duress the shit out of them!!

I think the problem is that certain people take Vintage MTG waaaayyyy to seriously.  The prizes are barely worth winning, (and by that I mean the traveling extended distances to events and having to cover gas, plane tickets, hotel, food, et cetera), so there really shouldn't be such a vested interest in winning, and secrecy, and all of that garbage. The focus should be comming to the events to hang out with your friends, play against some new people who don't live in your local neighborhood, and have some good times;  instead of approaching it as some kind of serious important event. Personally, I feel like teams and players who feel the need to keep their tech safeguarded, are kind of oozing with self impotence.  Especially, if they actually think that people would actually be lined up to rip off and play their newest, few card different, version of some old deck that has already existed for months, years, et cetera.

  It's all relative.  This is your opinion.  Some people can actually afford to spend loads of money and enjoy doing so.  Some people also hang out with their friends when they're not playing magic.  Even some people REALLY enjoy treating this game like a mental sport.  Like I don't understand why people run marathons, but I'm not going to tell them to just go jogging in the park with their friends because it's funner.

I may kind of a loner on this one, but when I come up with a card or idea that I think is neat I post it in the threads and share it with everybody else.  It keeps new players, and casual vintage players interested and excited about the format to hear about new "tech."  I think it is good for the format to share and post results, insights, lists, ideas et cetera.  Talking about new ideas is fun, and it is what keeps TMD fresh.

I was really interested and excited when you discovered Memory Jar in Burning Slaver after being out of Magic for so long.  Good jorb dude.

I'm not trying to beat up on the team that made up IT, or anything, I'm just saying that almost nobody actually cares whether or not people share their tech.  What I am saying, is that some of you guys should lighten up, and stop taking this stuff so seriously.

Right or wrong, some people actually do care.

I've posted all of the lists I've played in major events days before I played them;  and most of the time I've made top 8.  Vroman has no problem with doing the same thing as well.  It doesn't matter if people know what you are playing, because if you are good you'll win regardless.

Your performances indicate that you're a quality player, and I really think you are.  You seem to always play Burning Slaver, so you withholding a decklist isn't all that interesting.

The key point I'm leading up to with all of this rambling is that the quicker tech surfaces, the sooner more innovation can take place.  That is good for the format, its fun for the kiddies, and its interesting to talk about on line.

If innovation is so important, than what's with the casual attitude shown in your first paragraph?  I'm not sure I get it.

My vote is that if you play an interesting deck in a tournament and do well with it, one should write a report about it and let everybody know how techy they were.  Rather than act all secretive like one has completely reinvented the wheel, when one actually hasn't.  This pseudo rant isn't directed at any players specifically, but more to wards a general elitist and annoying attitude that lingers in the forums, and is spurned along by all the random team chest pounding and posturing. 
Its a card game played with friends, and yet half of the community acts like it is the fing Iron Curtain all over again.

Well, you don't do any chest pounding, so I got nothing here.


One thing that I want to know, will Waterbury lists be available before Gencon?  I guess I don't care either way but wouldn't mind knowing.

[TopSecret]

As I said at the outset, this thread is stupid.  TOs will continue to do what they please.  No one here has the power to change the current system because this is a decentralized issue, to the extent that it even is an issue. 

     I thought TMD was for discussion; which does not necessarily focus on change.
If some people are concerned with the trend of withholding decklists,
what is wrong with them discussing what they view as a problem?

[Lunar]

Wow, so much to read. So a few comments

Personally as a small time TO and host of a local Vintage web site I think it is my responsibility to at least start players on a similar playing field. From there innovations and play skill leading up to and during the next tournament seperate the players. I make it pretty clear that I am going to post any and all lists that I can get my hands on before durning and sometimes after the events in question (this includes my own and other california/west coast events) In fact at the next event I host I will probably give top 8 players access to the other lists.

IF a player gave me what I felt was a legit reason for not posting a list (and I cannot think of many legit reasons IMO at the moment) then I would probably force myself to not post any of the top 8 lists until such a time as I can post ALL of those lists...but that is just me and my feelings on the topic. I would at least say that ethically the TO should inform ALL members in the top 8 (or in the whole tourney if that TO plans on posting all lists) that somebody doesnt want to share then let everybody else make the same choice...or at least make it clear early on that players have that option at their event.

About the only time I would really honor a request not to share info is when I receive cool lists via PM or e-mail from people. These lists come to me BEFORE they are used outside of small test groups and I always would ask permission to talk about them in an article or thread. One case was a perfect example when Vroman sent me a list and asked for me not to spread it widely as he was thinking on writing an article on the list...this is totally understandable as obviously he should get credit for it.  The difference is that after a tournament everybody knows that Player X won Y tournament with a deck, that player already gets credit for the idea. This seperates it IMO from a prototype sort of list that somebody is going to pre-emptivly write about.

I like many others on here feel that tournament played lists are basically public knowledge.

Withholding decks at local events = great.

IMO those events stop being local only events as soon as they are advertised online...the fact that people brag about their winnings and that reports and other lists and top 8s are also published online basically makes none of the event posted about on here "local only" events. Trust me when I say that I know what people are playing all over the world. The internet has taken away little barriers that existed long ago.


The argument that people have a right to test their decks in public at local events because they need a place to test properly (*cough bs cough) in secret seems bogus to me. If you say people have a right to have their lists secret, then yes I agree...but only up until the point they play that list against people they dont know for some form of prize that is going to be published online. I understand that people want to win as much as possible, obv you cant blame people for wanting to win (they wouldnt play competitavly otherwise) But I dont find the need to test in "local" tournaments needed for doing well with a deck.

Please please correct me if I am wrong, but I do not remember seeing any tournaments with members from Meandeck witholding lists in the lead up to them taking half of a SCG top 8 with Oath. I do on the other hand see people like smmenen posting up LOADS of info on how to play a deck right...actually teaching you how to do well with that deck and in the process exposing flaws in said decks tactics. Yet Smmenen still wins with the deck. (obv there are other people...everybody knows shay plays CS, yet he still wins...everybody knows diceman plays dragon yet he still wins...and on and on) Maybe if you NEED tournaments for testing then you arent testing properly to begin with??? I dunno.


When it comes down to it I would put my vote on the side for publishing ALL lists for public use and mutual benefit (hey maybe YOUR secret deck can be even better with some fresh takes on the build?)

[zulander]

I don't think there's anything wrong with someone asking a judge to not post their decklist, as long as they don't believe the judge has to. You can call it disgraceful and stupid but to each their own.

[Dxfiler]

I'm mainly with DeMars on this, in that I look at witholding decklists to be silly.  The main reason why I think it's silly is because 99% of the time the 'tech' people withold is not new.  People just take themselves to be more important than they are, and it gives them a feeling of security to know their 'secret' is safe.  The reality is, your secret has'nt been a secret for weeks/months/years, and your tweaked version is probably not optimal anyway. 

I can definitely see the reverse agrument and respect it.  The majority of people who are for witholding decklists are part of a team or thinktank.  I am not. 
Those on teams/thinktanks often work hard on lists and don't want the world to see their baby ahead of a big tourney.  That reasoning is fine.  If you actually think your deck is so good that people would barn it and/or add cards to beat it because it's just THAT DAMN GOOD, I understand.  The harsh reality is that people rarely will do either of the above because the deck hasn't put up results.  People don't give a deck respect until it puts up a performance, and even then you can usually play the same deck at other events because people will still ignore it until it continues to win big.  SS was a great example of this.  By that logic, posting ahead of time and asking for opinions can usually only help your deck.

There are exceptions to decksharing that make perfect sense to me.  'Meandeck sex', as fragile and inconsistent as it was, definitely needed to be kept secret if it was going to be played en masse by the entire team.  A dozen or so of legitimate contenders at a big tourney all running the exact same previously unplayed deck pretty much have no other choice if they want to do well. 

What gets my goat is once the deck is out in the open, IT'S OUT IN THE OPEN.  That's it.  Your deck should be public information.  It was played in a public arena.  If that public arena happens to be a 200 person tournament then so be it.  People should not feel entitled to a right of privacy after a deck's unveiling.  Chances are the unveiling won't be impactful 99% of the time anyway.  If it is impactful, you should be proud of it.  Take this past Waterbury winner: Rich Meyst.  The decklists aren't up yet, but he immediately ran his very innovative list up there for all the world to see.  Kudos to him.  He made his money with it and chances are, even with the deck out there, he'll probably make more if he decides to play it in another tourney.  Going back to a Demars point: Good players can keep results going with the same deck. 

As for the issue of TO's witholding decklists, I don't agree with it but it's not my decision.  If they want to honor players requests, they have every right to.  It's their tourney.  The flipside of this is they are depriving themselves of immediate free publicity just to keep a few individuals happy.  Still, it is their right to do so if they choose.

In conclusion, there is no right or wrong to this issue and it will be debated endlessly by people on both sides forever and ever and ever.   

I'm pro sharing decklists both before and after an event.  If you're against this, that's perfectly ok.  Just don't share your coodies either.  :p   

- Dave Feinstein