[Unpo]RGw Aggro Hate

[frolll]

First, I'd like to say that I do believe that there's a nice niche for aggro in Vintage, if you know how to build it accuratly to fit your metagame and wreck terriblt the top tiers decks. However, I do know aggro is very weak and right now mostly underplayed and considered by a lot of people and very good players as dead, really dead, regardless of Ichorid or maybe Madness/Bird Shit if you live in a placve where the meta is a tad bit oriented more aggro/control than elsewhere.

So, deeply in my deckbuilder's heart, I feel like a challenge to build an aggro deck in Vintage, unpowered and pretty damn low-budget, that could be able to push some wins against the decks that are topt iers now. I've strarted three weeks ago, with the idea of maindecking as much hate as possible, but the fact is that solution could be very bad if you're paired with some random aggro in the first rounds, just because they don't pack as much hate for top tiers decks as you means that these decks are terrible, but also able to wreck your balls with they're more efficient beating. Eventhough, I wasn't quite confidant about the all-in-your-face aggro approch, seeing these decks stalled and stuck to the last tables, while aggro with hate and even more effecient clock like Ichorid where making their ways through Gifts, Slaver and Stax alike without slowing a bit, munching on players with all teeths out, but not losing to Tinker+Colossus as much as things like Taiga, Goblins (Vials or Food Chain), Bird Shit, WW (splashed or not) or even SUI if this is played somewhere...

Then, in regard to the decks that put the most players in top8, this is almost easy to see them in two parts, those who need their moxens and lotus/crypt/vault as sonn as possible to abuse them, and those who just play a gajillion spells before absolutely destroying you with a Tendrils so huge that it could kill three players. Keeping this fact in mind, and going with an other one (5 strips deck are good, too) in mind, I just started to build an aggro deck packing 4 Null Rod in the maindeck. But, even if the Rods can be the absolute nuts in certain games, they plain sucked in lots of others, and playing a Vintage deck with 4 maindeck dead cards isn't likely to give you any wins. The main problem with the Rods now, I guess, is that most the decks are now able to play around it for enough time to set up their kill condition, using an alternate maindeck or sideboard deck if necessary.
So I shifted for Chalice of the Void. But, played at 0 they aren't as good as you want them to be, and played at 1 or 2 they just shut your deck off, so they were terrible.
Pyrostatic Pillar was also one of the cards I've playtestes a lot. And, Gawd, they are good.

So, as far is I'm now with the aggro in Vintage, here is the deck:

Pink Taiga, a Vintage budget-aggro deck

Mana & 5 strips
1  Forest
1  Mountain
1  Strip Mine
2  Plateau
2  Savannah
2  Windswept Heath
4  Taiga
4  Wasteland
4  Wooded Foothills

Hate
3  Null Rod
3  Pyrostatic Pillar

Beaters/Utilities
1  Isamaru, Hound of Konda
2  Burning-Tree Shaman
3  Tin Street Hooligan
4  Grim Lavamancer
4  Kird Ape
4  Savannah Lions
4  Wild Mongrel

Removal/Boosts
3  Rancor
4  Lightning Bolt
4  Swords to Plowshares


The Side
2  Shattering Spree
2  Pithing Needle
3  Tormod's Crypt
3  Ray of Revelation
4  Red Elemental Blast
1  Tin Street Hooligan



Okay, there're a lot of vanilla creatures, that are only beaters, and not even bigger than Fish or WTF creatures. The absence of Vials is leaving the spot open for Rods maindeck, which have been included. Burning-Tree Shaman are creepy; a Standard creature that could do some lovely damage direct in the head of the opponent, and a beater in is own. Sure, this deck don't have creatures that could be compared to aggro worshop decks ones, but, seriously, are aggro workshops played?

Also, most hate slots of this deck are customizable: Rods for Suppression Field, or Tormod's Crypt, or Ray, or REB maindecked, are possibly worth the shot. The Pillars too can be removed for other hate slots, pushing the maindeck to something like 3 Crypts 3 REB is somewhat strange, but if you feel that it will enpower the deck to suit your local metagame, go ahead and try!

This deck is very solid, holding his way facing Gifts, Slaver, Stax, and winning is very possible against Ichorid and Fish/WTF. Dragon and Oath aren't that easy, but still winnable, like strom combo decks, as long as they aren't playing with too many bounces in their maindeck.
Post-side, the matchups became all-clear to me, this deck could be viable, if you know how to play with it.

Against most decks, you are the aggro player, playing your hand then just beating them to death, but, sometimes, you must aggressivly mulligan into a hat component unless you feel comfortable with the fact of losing the game one easier than it could have been. Example, against Stax, you may just simply put as many permanents as you can and outnumbered him, keeping your beaters online as much time as possible; Tin-Street Hooligan is also very helpful if he sets CotV at one too quickly. Welders aren't a real threat with 4 StP and 4 Lightning Bolt maindeck, too.

Anyways, this deck is just simply able to put that much pressure on an opponent taht is normal gameplan will be affected, and the mere surprise factor is an advantage. No one expects unpowered aggro, in normal times.

I strongly recommend you to test it before flaming, too.

I think this deck is also flexible, and could be tuned to fit nearly anyone metagame.


All advices will be listened very carefully, as long are they are constructive and not too hateful.



ps: I truly apologize for my English.

[The Chosen One]

Pryoclasm could be a real problem for you. Aggro decks in vintage have been underperforming for quite awhile now(ichorid being an exception) but alot of aggro/control have been ranking alot higher due to the counter base they carry.. You have a good choice in a few colors, red and green are really strong hate colors, white is good for STP and such, but blue is really a color you should consider, maybe black.... There are several blue/red/black aggro decks out there, they can severely disrupt the opponents gameplan. I had started a thread for a blue/black/red fish deck, but I havent developed a full list yet, so it kinda dwindled off.... I would suggest going to starcitygames.com and looking at decklists from the Richmond event, there are a few "hate" decks that are really solid, and are very metagame flexible, and could really be strong perfrormers even if they are unpowered.. I play alot of unpowered fish decks, just due the fact that the 4 pieces of power I would run I would rather have business spells like fire/ice, or stifle... I like your enthusiasm and hope you form up a winner... I'll comment more as new ideas arise

Joe

[zeus-online]

Isnt tormod's crypt and Null rod basicly good against the same decks? (Gifts, Slaver, Most combo decks)...dosnt this create some sort of problem when you are boarding? Have you tried gorilla shaman? That guy just seems nutz good! Only problem is that they can just hold their moxes and use them as lotus petals the turn they go off....which is...bad :/

Also...if you are worrid about stax, try 3 serenity and/or 3 sacred ground in the board...they just rock against stax.

How come you dont play with basking rootwalla's? They are pretty good with mongrels

/Zeus

[pyr0ma5ta]

T's Crypt and Null Rod is not synergy, Zeus.

This deck has serious issues with Chalice 1.  You have very few answers.  Chalice 1+Chalice 2 = game.  I would play with the Angry Gorilla if only to eat Chalices.

[zeus-online]

I think you COMPLETELY  missed my point with null rod/T crypt.
I'm saying that it CREATES a problem when you are boarding, since you basicly want both cards in against the SAME decks.....and that just dosnt seem workable to me.

Sorry if it wasnt clear from my previos post.

/Zeus

[CwaM]

T's Crypt and Null Rod is not synergy, Zeus.

This deck has serious issues with Chalice 1.  You have very few answers.  Chalice 1+Chalice 2 = game.  I would play with the Angry Gorilla if only to eat Chalices.

Shattering spree can solve this problem easily

[pyr0ma5ta]

Spree solves Chalice 1, sure, but you only have 2 in a deck with no tutors.  I'd go up to 4 for sure.

T's Crypt and Null Rod are both strong, but generally you want Null Rod against Slaver and Crypt against Gifts.  I've been increasingly less impressed with Crypt against Combo, I'd much rather have Rod.

[frolll]

Also, 4 Tin-Street Hooligan can solve the CotV at 1 problem in a pretty good way.

Serenity is also a great sideboard option, as of Artifact Mutation, that could create a whole 11 1/1 tokens to win the race against Colossus, if unable to Swords him.

The Tormod's Crypts are also damn good against Ichorid, or Dragon, or Leviat, or Pandeburst, or Cerebral Assassin.
Null Rod is maindecked because that cuts off their moxen, letting him goes off slower, also, that really hurts Slaver.

The deck is pretty solid, but sometimes I feel like playing some sub optimal creatures... Any idea for remplacement. Should the lone Isamaru something like a goblin vandal or a gorila shaman?

For now I'm trying with -1 Isamaru, +1 Hearth Kami. That can solves CotV at 1, too.

[UR]

As far as hate decks go, we've had (limited) succes with the following list;

Maindeck R/G Beatz
4 Taiga
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
3 Mountain
1 Strip Mine
4 Kird Ape
4 Jungle Lion
4 Gorilla Shaman
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Hearth Kami
4 Null Rod
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Rancor
3 Artifact Mutation
4 Root Maze
1 Black Vise
3 Naturalize

Sideboard:
1 Naturalize
1 Artifact Mutation
1 Rancor
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Pithing Needle
2 Choke
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Tormod’s Crypt

But I suppose it really depends on your metagame. I personally think Lightning Bolt is useless and STP is only marginally better. I know this deck rolls over and dies to DSC, but with Artifact Mutation you can race them (good players hold counters after they resolve Tinker, but that is where REB comes in).

We've toyed around with the Burning Tree Shaman but getting to three mana on a regular basis is just hard. Especially since two of them are colored.

If I were you, I'd cut white. I know it is very comfortable to have STP and maybe even Kataki, but I don't think it is worth it because red and green can do everything those things can.

[bebe]

If I were you, I'd cut white. I know it is very comfortable to have STP and maybe even Kataki, but I don't think it is worth it because red and green can do everything those things can.
 

In fact I was about to suggest the oppposite. G/w can do everything this deck wants to accomplish without the red. Other than blasts it has little to offer and there arer some solutions fopr blue in green/white to compensate. I played g/w for awhile with some success. However, I dropped it eventually as fish can do what any of these builds do better. You might also want to check 'mountains win again' for a very well balanced hate deck. If you are set on playing the deck I would drop one color though - either red or white.

[Prometheon]

You're playing the 3 colors with no good draw spells. Black for Confidant or Scrying or even Night's Whisper would be good, and so would blue for Ancestral, Time Walk and Standstill.

[frolll]

Definitely, I won't cut a color of my build, being 3 colored isn't a really bad thing just now, in the current european meta where stax is absent for top8 and because of the mostly unproxied events there are more aggros and random, so having to cut a color just to deal better with stax (in fact, UbaStax monored without Jester's Cap but sometimes with Teferi's Puzzle box are played more than 5c Stax) is somewhat irrevelant.
And, according to my MWS testing, the matchup against Stax isn't that difficult if you know how to play this deck to its maximum efficience (efficiency?).

I'd rather consider replacing one by an other, such as red by black for Confidant/Chains/Duress or blue for ancestral recall/time walk/tinker+colossus md perhaps and something like 4 brainstorm, considering the 6 fetches in the deck that could be great.

However, as far as I'm testing this deck, I found that the most revelant threat are Sundering Titan and Triskelion; logically, Darksteel Colossus's here, too, but he has no side effects to crush me with.
It seems that the worst matchups are against CS, Oath and Dragon, or Cerebral Assassin, because they lack of maindeck hate, post-side, Tormod's Crypt, as always are great.

You must have the faith in your topdecks while playing that, and actually it is really possible and sometimes almost easy to win. Just keep out of Titan that wreck our manabase and Trike that kills our men...

The 2 Burning-Tree Shaman could possibly be Pillar fourth and Null Rod fourth, too.

[Rittler]

Hi @ all!

I don't know if it's OK if I just participate in this topic with the R/G/w Aggro Build I was toying around since the outcome of Ghost Quarter. My Deck also tries to abuse as much hate as possible out of green, red and white, but is a little more orientated on mana denial as yours, so here is my list:

4x Ghost Quarter
4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
2x Taiga
1x Savannah
1x Plateau
4x Windswept Heath
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Plains
1x Forest
1x Mountain
1x Mox Emerald (it's the only Mox I got, this is why I play it )

4x Null Rod
4x Root Maze
2x Crucible of Worlds
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Lightning Bolt

4x Gorilla Shaman
3x River Boa
4x Grim Lavamancer
3x Tin Street Hooligan
2x Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4x Kird Ape

Sideboard:
2x Shattering Spree
4x Ray of Revelation
4x Pyrostatic Pillar
4x Red Elemental Blast
1x Tin Street Hooligan

Root Maze seems to be the card making Ghost Quarter playable and giving you some time against Combo. It is a really strong first turn drop and I know that it sucks with your own Fetchlands, but it rules in connection with Ghost Quarter and this is why it is in there.

Crucible is another card I'm not sure about. It has the highest casting cost in this deck and you often stay with 1 land all through the game, so you can hardly ever cast it. But if it gets to a lategamesituation it's freaking insane. So I left it in there, but it could be the place for some maindeck Pillars.

The rest of the Deck is pretty much the same you're playing, only replacing the Mongrels with River Boa, which I think is the better choice.

One thing I'm not content with is the mana base, since it's very fragile. This is why I added a basic of each type.

I hope we can build the perfect R/G/w Aggro Deck together matching the strenghs of botch decks.

Thx for your time...

hirudo

[Harlequin]

I would say add 4 Ahnk of Mishra to that somwhere.  Again Rootmaze + Anhk would be rather insane with Ghost Quarter.  Maybe cut out your fetches (for basics and duels) and crucibles if you go this route.

[Rittler]

Well that's an idea...

So it would be kinda like

-4 Windswept Heath
-1 Wooded Foothills
-2 Crucible of Worlds

+2 Taiga
+1 Savannah
+1 Plateau
+3 Ankh of Mishra

I think this is worth some testing...

[frolll]

I love the idea of these maindecked Ankh of Mishra, but it' somewhat wrong when maindecking Pyrostatic Pillar...

I think that Ghost Quarter and Root Maze are great cards, but you'll kill a bit later than going more plain aggro and less control.
But if you want to not be a bye against combo, that's respectable!

[UR]

In fact I was about to suggest the oppposite. G/w can do everything this deck wants to accomplish without the red. Other than blasts it has little to offer and there arer some solutions fopr blue in green/white to compensate.

Not really. Kird Ape is hard to replace. Because it is 2/3 it is simply too big for Fish to deal with pre-side and will actually do a lot of damage. Also, a well timed Artifact Mutation beats Staxx singlehandedly.

[CwaM]

Also, a well timed Artifact Mutation beats Staxx singlehandedly.

Stax is basically a bye for RGw Hate, you really don't need artifact mutation also, shattering spree isn't blocked by chalice while artifact mutation is

[UR]

I have never ever seen Staxx put down a CotV for 2 against a deck like this. Artifact mutation is cute, but they want to slow down your win condition which are virtually all one mana creatures.

[frolll]

Again, the 4 Tin-Street Hooligan + Shattering Spree plus the Heart Kami md I'm testing are pretty enough to insure you taht Stax won't be a difficult matchup.

[Harlequin]

If you want to save deck space, just throw 3 Sacred Ground in the Sideboard.  I have yet to see a stacks deck beat a Sacred Ground in play.

I'm not saying that its Impossible to beat.  I'm just saying that of the dozen or so sacred grounds I've seen hit the table agianst stax in tournement play... It almost single handedly wins the game every time.  As a side note, no one ever sideds in Ray of Rev against aggro.

[policehq]

If you want to save deck space, just throw 3 Sacred Ground in the Sideboard.  I have yet to see a stacks deck beat a Sacred Ground in play.

I'm not saying that its Impossible to beat.  I'm just saying that of the dozen or so sacred grounds I've seen hit the table agianst stax in tournement play... It almost single handedly wins the game every time.  As a side note, no one ever sideds in Ray of Rev against aggro.

Wow, I see aggro lose to that all the time, simply because the Stax player boards in Ray after seeing white in the maindeck.

Kird Ape is not a card that you should worry about when you think of cards to put in this deck... Under certain conditions (which are more limited when playing three colors and not two), he just swings for two.

U/W Aggro players started getting the idea when they were putting creatures with text on them in their decks. Stormscape Apprentice was infinitely annoying when I first played against him, and the deck rolled me because I wasn't prepared.

-hq