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Author Topic: [Deck] Doomsday  (Read 2454 times)
Appletree
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« on: May 27, 2006, 12:15:31 pm »

Hi!

Recently, I've been trying to build a deck around the powerful but underused Infernal Contract.
One of the better builds coming out was this:

Creatures: 0
Spells: 46
1 Gush
1 Mind's Desire
1 Beacon of Destruction
1 Yawgmoths Will
4 Force of Will
4 Duress
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Echoing Truth
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
3 Doomsday
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
4 Brainstorm
1 Lotus Petal
1 Black Lotus
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
2 Cruel Bargain
3 Infernal Contract
2 Chromatic Sphere
3 Misdirection
1 Personal Tutor
Lands: 14
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Island
3 Swamp

Some card explanations:

The card-draw: Infernal Contract, Cruel Bargain, Gush
Dark Ritual+Infernal Contract/Cruel Bargain gives you +2 card-advantage for only 1, just like Ancestral Recall.
The bad thing is the life-loss, especially when more of them are played in a game. The good thing is, the deck
is really fast and life usually doesn't matter in most matches. Another plus is that the rituals in the yard are
good for the preferable Yawgmoth's Will as a game-winner and that it helps getting threshold for Cabal Ritual.
As for Gush, I think this is another underplayed card nowadays. Here, it's so good because of the low
cost of the combo.

The Disruption: Force of Will, Duress, Misdirection
Force and Duress are obvious, but why are there Misdirections? When playing this deck, I found out that the
most important thing to winning is to resolve one of the draw-fours. It's extremely good when you get one
through on your turn 1, which is exactly what Misdirection allows you to do. That aside, the card is still good
at using your opponents Ancestrals and pitching to Force of Will.

The Combo: Doomsday, Mind's Desire, Beacon of Destruction(, Chromatic Sphere, Gush)
The fin of the deck is the well-known Doomsdaystack of
Ancestral Recall
Black Lotus
Dark Ritual
Mind's Desire
Beacon of Destruction
The only difference here is that most of the time you can win directly after the Doomsday
without passing the turn by using either Chromatic Sphere or Gush. Unlike Meandeck Doomsday,
there aren't any more stacks in this deck. That's because I think with the draw-engine, you can
easily draw into that second Brainstorm to put back a card you need and disruption is not so easy
to get through yours. The only thing you can do is using Cabal or Dark Ritual if something like Null Rod
or Chalice slipped through. If any of the two Spheres hit the board, you can't win via Doomsday,
anyway. That's why Echoing Truth is in the deck.

I'll also answer one question that will probably come up:
Why no Vampiric Tutor and Imperial Seal?
It's the life, you know...

Some ideas for the sideboard:
Null Rod, Back to Basics:
The deck doesn't absolutely need its artifacts for winning, and it's running on a high land count.
Echoing Truth:
Nice to have against Colossus or Stax.
Energy Flux:
With that much basics, it's not very hard to get this one out.
Darkblast:
Owns Welders again and again.
Spell Snare:
Mana Drain, Dark Confidant, Impulse, Animate Dead, Meddling Mage, Sphere of Resistance...
Tormod's Crypt:
Graveyard hate is very useful today, i heard.
Second Chance:
hmm...

So, here are my questions for you:

Is this deck viable?
Improvements?
What would a good sideboard for this deck look like?
Why the hell is no one playing Infernal Contract/Cruel Bargain?
Can you think of other decks Infernal Contract/Cruel Bargain would be good in?

Important: If you find any grammatical errors in the text, I'm sorry. I'm from Germany^^

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Rittler
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« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2006, 07:20:47 pm »

Quote
Why the hell is no one playing Infernal Contract/Cruel Bargain?
Can you think of other decks Infernal Contract/Cruel Bargain would be good in?

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=27005.0

This deck abuses the Draw-4's and it does very well...
Its also not hated by Null Rod or Chalice@0 and can go off by turn 1 consistantly.

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~carpe noctem~
sa17dk
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« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2006, 09:58:41 pm »

Have you ever found that life loss from Doomsday and Infernal Contract too much?

20 Life
Infernal Contract
10 Life
Doomsday
5 Life

OR

20 Life
Fetchland
19 Life
Infernal Contract
Force of Will
18 --> 9
Doomsday
4 Life


That leaves you incredibly vulnerable to a simple tendrils for storm 2 or 3.
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Appletree
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« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2006, 06:40:40 am »

@Rittler:
I haven't tested the IT.TT deck very much, but the few matches I played weren't so successful as intended...
That's probably because I'm not a good player. Depite that, the Doomsday version somehow plays itself.
Of course, that doesn't say that my version is any better, but I think it's much more consistent at fighting hate.
@sa17dk:
No, in testing that wasn't much of a problem. Against Fish decks, you just try to play only one draw-4, steal
their Force and win the turn you cast Doomsday (which is surprisingly easy, try it!). Vs Tendrils decks, you have
to delay their win for about a turn or two, then just combo off before they have the time to search for and
play their Tendrils. That's what Duress is for.

It would be nice if someone testplays the deck and helps a bit tweaking the mana. I already thought about replacing
one Swamp with an Island, but I'm not sure.
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Kasuras
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« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2006, 07:40:37 am »

I've been down this road to: and trust me when I say it does not lead to a better deck. The best advice I can give is just to run Meandeck Tendrils and think about the sideboard and the 2 metagame slots. Nonetheless:


Quote
4 Force of Will
4 Duress
1 Echoing Truth
3 Misdirection

Unmask was there because you don't want to cast Doomsday blindly: while it would be great if you have FoW + random blue card, he could have an extra counter you don't know about and you're fucked. At the moment, you run 16 blue cards of which you can remove 14 at all for FoW/Misd, and most of the time that number is.. 7. The advantage of Unmask is that it lets you get rid of the Doomsdays and Rituals, which can in fact be redundant as opposed to all the blue cards in the deck.

Echoing Truth is entirely suboptimal compared to Chain of Vapor; you will not have any permanents at all except for Moxen you can cast anyway. Moreover, while the bounce slot is a metagame choice: most metagames still require Rebuild or Hurkyl's Recall in that slot.

Quote
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
3 Doomsday
4 Brainstorm
2 Cruel Bargain
3 Infernal Contract
2 Chromatic Sphere
1 Personal Tutor
1 Gush
1 Mind's Desire
1 Beacon of Destruction
1 Yawgmoths Will

I cannot fathom how you think that even more lifeloss would increase the deck's viability; especially when taking the argument used to dismiss Vampiric Tutor into account. Doomsday is the heart of the deck, why are you running a mere 3 copies? Removing Tendrils of Agony and Necropotence is a mistake, not more than that. I fail to see how Infernal Contract can be any better than Timetwister.

Quote
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Lotus Petal
1 Black Lotus
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Island
3 Swamp

Where is your Lion's Eye Diamond? 4 Cabal Ritual is too much.


In summary:

+3 Misdirection
+2 Cruel Bargain
+3 Infernal Contract
+1 Chromatic Sphere
+1 Personal Tutor
+2 Cabal Ritual
+2 Swamp

-4 Unmask
-1 Lim-Dûl's Vault
-1 Timetwister
-1 Necropotence
-1 Tendrils of Agony
-1 Lion's Eye Diamond
-1 Underground Sea
-1 Island
-1 Doomsday
-1 Vampiric Tutor
-1 Time Walk (debeteable / metagame choice)

01 Echoing Truth (metagame choice, Chain of Vapor, Rebuild and Hurkyl's Recall are the 3 options, Truth is not.)


In all honesty, I think you need to realize that Doomsday is unlike any other deck in the format. Moreover, you seem to misunderstand the entire idea of the deck by removing Tendrils of Agony.

I suggest you take a look at the following links:

[Discussion]Dr. Doom by Kasuras: (discussion/article)
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=26214.0

Rehearsing the Doomsday Scenario: Learning How to Build Optimal Doomsday Piles by Stephen Menendian: (article)
http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/9361.html

The Doomsday Device: The Coolest Win Condition In Magic by Stephen Menendian: (primer/article)
http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/8410.html

Papal Bull: Doomsday’s Back—and in Non-hoax Form! By JP Meyer: (primer/article)
http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/8372.html

Hero ’t Mannetje’s deck played to a 2nd place finish in the November Eindhoven tournament:
http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/index.php?topic=25714.0


I can only applaud work on this deck (it seemed I was the only one left still playing it), but this is not the way you should be going.
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Ye weep, unhappy ones; but these are not your last tears!
-Frankenstein, -Mary Shelley.

Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate.
-The Divine Comedy, -Dante Alighieri
Weired Al Y.
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« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2006, 02:03:47 pm »

Hi,
I think that this deck ist viable, because it's fast and constand. I built it and played it on a regional tournament
and I won it, so that's anather reason for me, that I thik it's aviable. Or it was luck Mr. Green

My oppinion of the Sideboard:

3x Spell Snare
3x Null Rod
3x Defense Grid
3x Energy Flux
3x Darkblas
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Kasuras
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« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2006, 02:31:08 pm »

Sadly, winning with something does not mean it's a good deck let alone the best version. With regards to the sideboard:

1) The mainboard of Meandeck Tendrils is already set up so that you can play through any card.
2) You have to rely on your luck and skills to play through certain combinations of cards.

Due to 1), you should look at your sideboard even closer than you would with a regular deck: as where decks such as fish have inherent bad matchups, this deck only has up to a certain degree, it's the situation you're in that matters. And as such, fish can just add the standard cards in an arbitrary random fashion: rock, paper, scissors. Defining which situations are worst for the deck's performance is vital during the finetuning of the sideboard, see 2).

I must confess that even my experience with the deck is too limited to say which situation is worse than the other, mandating more sideboard slots. Finally:

3) The number of cards you can sideboard out is perhaps 10 at all times (probably max 5 per matchup), this allows for less impact of the sideboarded cards yet on the other hand also means that you can broaden your options.


My suggestion would be the following:

4 Energy Flux
3 Chain of Vapor
2 Rebuild
1 Tinker
1 Darksteel Colossus
3 Grim Tutor
1 Imperial Seal

Again, I am by far not experienced enough with the deck (though countless hours have been spent on it) to give any advice on the sideboard, all I can say is that I'm fairly confident in the Drain matchup but that Workshop and random/unexpected decks can cause problems.

Nonetheless, perhaps it's better to start an entirely new thread for the sideboard.
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Ye weep, unhappy ones; but these are not your last tears!
-Frankenstein, -Mary Shelley.

Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate.
-The Divine Comedy, -Dante Alighieri
Appletree
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« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2006, 03:03:25 pm »

Hi!

@Weired Al:
I'm not Gump and I don't live in an Amish Paradise, so stay serious Smile
(I hope you know Weird Al Yankovic...).
And yea, I really think it has some consistency.
The sideboard is not bad, but the Null Rods shouldn't be there. I toyed around with them, as well, but they just
slow you down considerably and thats not what a deck wants which almost destroys itself.

@Kasuras:
First thank you for the time you investigated in helping me.
You may be right, but thats not a Doomsday-deck I tried to build (Okay, I probably shouldn't have named it Doomsday,
but I had no better idea...). It's just a Control-deck which tries to draw a lot of cards very early and then win as fast
as possible (well, that's sort of needed). Although Doomsday costs you even more life, it is still the best option i found
other than just filling the yard and winning with Will + Tendrils. I thought about that, too, but it is too vulnerable to
modern hate, while the Doomsday-finisher has almost no hate which completely stops it cold.

Quote
Unmask was there because you don't want to cast Doomsday blindly: while it would be great if you have FoW + random blue card, he could have an extra counter you don't know about and you're fucked. At the moment, you run 16 blue cards of which you can remove 14 at all for FoW/Misd, and most of the time that number is.. 7. The advantage of Unmask is that it lets you get rid of the Doomsdays and Rituals, which can in fact be redundant as opposed to all the blue cards in the deck.
The only card you have to cast blindly early in the game is one of the draw-4s. Misdirection helps accomplishing that and
are also blue (FoW). I'm not really sure about them, but you need more answers to their counters than they have ones,
so that you can be sure that your draw-4 will come through. Otherwise, you're in bad shape. And yes, you're right that
I have to up the blue-count, but I don't know what to add.

Quote
I cannot fathom how you think that even more lifeloss would increase the deck's viability; especially when taking the argument used to dismiss Vampiric Tutor into account. Doomsday is the heart of the deck, why are you running a mere 3 copies? Removing Tendrils of Agony and Necropotence is a mistake, not more than that. I fail to see how Infernal Contract can be any better than Timetwister.

The lifeloss is an argument, but I already gave my statement to that. The loss of necropotence is really, really bad but
you can run only one copy of it while you can theoretically run 8 draw-4s. Doomsday is probably the heart of Doomsday,
but not of this deck (once again, sorry for the name...). Tendrils and Timetwister sound interesting, as they're also useful
outside the Doomsday-stacks. I'll give them a try.

Quote
Where is your Lion's Eye Diamond? 4 Cabal Ritual is too much.

LED is pretty useless outside Doomsday and Will and can clog up hands. Ritual is really needed, as you're most likely have to generate three or more black three times or more in a game. They also help speed up the deck, as they're the
reason why you're able to win directly after Doomsdaying without passing a turn ( together with Will...).

Quote
1 Echoing Truth (metagame choice, Chain of Vapor, Rebuild and Hurkyl's Recall are the 3 options, Truth is not.)

OK, that's most certainly true.

Quote
I can only applaud work on this deck (it seemed I was the only one left still playing it), but this is not the way you should be going.

Thanks alot^^, I'll go on working on "Draw-4", no matter how bad it may be or what people say Razz
I'll go on actualising the list and playtesting against some decks this week, so stay tuned if you're really interested.
If this is not the case, well, then I have to do it alone.

Have a good time

Appletree

« Last Edit: May 30, 2006, 06:34:04 am by Appletree » Logged
Kasuras
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« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2006, 04:28:20 am »

Quote
It's just a Control-deck which tries to draw a lot of cards very early and then win as fast
as possible

I'm sorry, but that's just wrong. You are setting 'drawing cards' as your goal; but drawing cards won't win you the game. The cards you draw with it will make you win, but the caliber of the cards you can draw in a Doomsday deck are of such mediocre quality that drawing cards is not a good idea.

Both with Meandeck Tendrils and your deck, the ultimate goal is to cast Doomsday and go off with it. But look at what you really want to achieve with both decks:

1) BBB + UB
2) Safety when going off
3) A way of drawing the next card, be it via the next turn or something like Brainstorm.

Both decks can get the BBB, and both decks have ways to draw that first essential card. The problem however, lies in the safety your deck is trying to accomplish as opposed to the way MD tries: Misd. Vs. Unmask. Unmask gives you the certainty whether you can go off or not, that is fundamental for the second step.

My point is that 'just drawing cards' is a fundamentally wrong strategy. It has been summed up by Jacob Orlove very well in his article Putting it All Together and the Danger of Cool Things by Chad Allis, I suggest you read them.

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/10512.html
http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/3689.html


I could reply on your statements, but I honestly believe that this deck concept is flawed.
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Ye weep, unhappy ones; but these are not your last tears!
-Frankenstein, -Mary Shelley.

Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate.
-The Divine Comedy, -Dante Alighieri
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