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Author Topic: Mono Blue Fish  (Read 2619 times)
merfolkOTPT
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« on: May 30, 2006, 01:45:16 pm »

This deck is putting the fish shell around a different hate card in Back to Basics, here is the list:
EDIT:-4 island +4 moxen -3 Null rod +3 Cotv -3Mana leak +1 Daze +2 remand  Still want to add more bounce, either Curfew, Rushing River, or Repeal
mana 22
4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
5x Moxen
1x Black Lotus
11x Island/Fetch lands
Creatures 16
4x Suq'ata Firewalker  Acting as removal in place of other colors
3x Waterfront bouncer Same as above also doing something in the Oath match or vs DC
3x Spiketail Hatchling Gives more tempo and possibly taps down lands into Back 2 Basics
3x Ninja of the deep hours Need to draw cards somewhere
3x  Thalakos seer Enables ninja and draws cards
Counter 12 Larger then usual to account for other cards normally in build from other colors
4x FoW
3x Stifle Helps with mana denial aspects esp. after B2B hits table
2x Remand
3x Daze
Disruption 6
3x Back to Basics
3x CotV
Might change balance to 4 2 of B2B null rod

4x aether vial Helps ability to cheat mana and do ninja tricks

This is the build i have so far but it is largely untested.  I think it might do well as STAX gets further from the meta because mana base construction might become more fragile (read: more non basics).  I would like to test with people please send a PM i think this build coiuld be refined quite a bit and any help would be very much appreciated.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2006, 05:21:08 pm by merfolkOTPT » Logged
Harlequin
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« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2006, 01:59:38 pm »

A few questions and comments:

#1) Are you playing in a competative, mixed, proxy meta-game?
#2) what decks are most common in your area?

Firstly, I'm not sure that Aether Vial helps your deck much.  Firstly, aside from your spiketails you do not have creatures that you can take advantage of the instant speed creatures (see: WU fish with meddling mage and Voidmage prod).  Also your null rod dirrectly fights this card, so I think Vial is the first card to cut.

Thalakos Seer is very interesting.  I have not seen him played, but in theory he could work fairly well, especially in a mono-blue deck.

I like the Stifles, and the Spiketails.  Good synergy with b2b.  you probably want to up your Daze count and also consider Disrupt or remand as other synergy cards you could play.  When your locking them down with b2b they type of countermagic can go along way.    Along those lines, I'm not sure I like Mana Leak.  You don't have alot of off color moxen running around, so the {1}{U} casting cost is not that great.  You could probably get away with running counterspell at {U}{U} (which is not good).  For that spot I think any of the previously mentioned cards is better suited over mana leak.  Disrupt is nice for countering those turn 1 brianstorms.  If your going to jump to the 2 mana level.  Either run straight Counterspell or go for the cantripping power Remand.


Lastly, You really need some bounce.  You cannot always rely on being able to counter Tinker and Oath.  Rushing River, and Echoing Truth are really nice (I would avoid Chain of Vapor, because it is bad if your running B2B, as in they will be glad to sac lands to bounce your b2b).  Another option which I think would be GREAT is Curfew.  Esp if your sticking to running the Seers, Curfew will let you hand Collosus as well as the new Oath tech: Simic Sky Swallower.

Lastly #2 (edit), you really --might-- consider Ghost Quarter over Wasteland in this deck... before everyone goes nuts here me out.  Your already locking out non-basics with b2b.  Any they will likely be fetching thier basics out of thier deck quickly.  So if they run out of basics you can use GQ as stripmine #2 to 5.  Its worth testing considering most common teir one decks run in the range of 2 to 4 basics.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2006, 02:03:16 pm by Harlequin » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2006, 02:11:44 pm »

It seems the only way to play Back to Basics on turn 1 or 2 is if you draw your Lotus for turn one or draw Sapphire for turn 2. I would try to play a mana base of full moxen and run Chalice of the Void over Null Rod, that way you can still play Aether Vial.

Also consider running Dandan. Maybe even Cloud of Faeries as Aether Vial tricks using them are pretty sweet.
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« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2006, 02:13:57 pm »

with only blue mana, why not use counterspell or mana drain?

I suppose its for the wastelands, but have you tried with mana drains/ counterspells?
what about adding disrupts? they have always had great experiences with disrupts; duress, brainstorm, hymn and many others. would ophidian be good in the deck?
ps what does [card]dandan[/card] do again? its not in the mtg database, and its been a long time.
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« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2006, 02:16:08 pm »

Fish doesn't like being monoblue because:

1) blue doesn't have enough utility creatures as a single color to be metagame-able

2) blue's creatures aren't strong enough to win a fish mirror or survive darkblast or fire/ice.

3) blue's sideboard cannot hate anything, anything's mother, or anything's ex-girlfriend.  When considering a mono-blue maindeck for fish most still use a number of dual lands and fetches so sideboard options are actually valuable...and yes monoblue has more than just problems playing against workshop because it cannot actually destroy an artifact.
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merfolkOTPT
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« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2006, 05:16:23 pm »

I think the running 5 moxen, chalice and disrupt would be a great way to go.  I forgot about disrupt when buiding this.   I am considering Dan-dan for the board against control.  I will edit the deck list accordingly. 
Quote
#1) Are you playing in a competative, mixed, proxy meta-game?
#2) what decks are most common in your area?

This is a mixed and proxy meta game.  There are a few people with "real" decks Stax, Oath, Gifts and a bunch of extended ports, No other Fish.

Quote
Lastly, You really need some bounce.  You cannot always rely on being able to counter Tinker and Oath.
In regards to this is bouncer not enough?  I think curfew is a good idea but i wish i had a way to deal with moxen if i am on the draw.  The perils of playing mono colored i suppose.

Thanks for all the good suggestions guys keep them coming.
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« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2006, 05:22:41 pm »

First off playing Mono U fish is automatically inferior to playing with a splash.

Secondly, you may as well go back to the original Merfolk base and run Curiosity. That trumps your current threat base and really is quite effective with the amount of Islands that exist in T1. Curiosity is also going to be more mana efficent and tempo friendly than Ninja in this sort of build. Lord of Alantis plus one or two other guys can actually consitute a clock and at worst gives evasion to the rest of the army vs. DSC, Trike, etc.

Back to Basics is awful in this sort of build, Null Rod is the second best card you can run in this sort of deck and should be a 4-of. Mana Leak is terrible and should be straight Counterspell IF you were going to run more counters period.
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merfolkOTPT
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« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2006, 05:46:05 pm »

Vegeta bring up an interesting point is original fish with merfolk a better idea with this kind of build, would we want to run lord of atlantis and Co.?
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« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2006, 07:08:48 pm »

Maybe even Cloud of Faeries as Aether Vial tricks using them are pretty sweet.

what tricks are there with cloud and vial? the untap only happens if you play them from your hand
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« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2006, 10:28:56 pm »

Quote
3) blue's sideboard cannot hate anything, anything's mother, or anything's ex-girlfriend. When considering a mono-blue maindeck for fish most still use a number of dual lands and fetches so sideboard options are actually valuable...and yes monoblue has more than just problems playing against workshop because it cannot actually destroy an artifact.

I disagree...what about these staples:

Propaganda
Energy Flux
Annul
Arcane Laboratory

They provide some decent sideboard options for any deck running blue.  Bringing in Energy Flux and Annul can make a Workshop player cry.
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« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2006, 11:42:16 pm »

Your bounce choices (Curfew, Repeal, Rushing River) are not good.  Curfew is crap, run Unsummon at the very least, but if you want a 1 CC bouncer, Chain of Vapor is probably the most flexible. 

Repeal is garbage here - anything you want to bounce, you probably won't be able to pay X.

Rushing river is ok, but why not Chain or Echoing Truth?
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merfolkOTPT
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« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2006, 12:45:14 am »

I don't like echoing truth because i feel if a CotV gets played against me the number will be two and i need a way to bounce that.  Chain can have parity especially if a chalice is involved on the other side.  Curfew was kinda jokey tech but rushing river will probably be what end up happening.
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Harlequin
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« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2006, 06:02:46 am »

I'm not sure I agree with the dirrection you've taken the deck.  I think Aether Vial in this deck is major mistake.  Basically Aether Vial provides 3 advantages:

#1) Open's up your mana: your deck doesn't really have alot of mana sinks, you don't run Mishrahs factory, Voidmage Prodigy, or Rootwater Thief.  Also it can be viewed as a mana "fixer" of sorts meaning you don't nessisarily need White mana to cast meddling mage... but you run mono-blue so you cannot take advantage of that either.

#2) Gives you uncounterable creatures:  You don't really have creatures worth countering.  Its not like your dropping bombshell creatures like lacky or piledriver

#3) Gives you instant speed creatures:  You only have spiketail as a 3 of for instant speed useful creatures, and he is only mildly good at instant speed hes basically just another daze.  again, if you were running Voidmage or Meddling Mage you can really capitolize on the instant speed advantage.

Disadvantages:
#1) It doesn't do anything on its own, and It makes you wait longer to cast your creatures.

#2) It means you are relying on it to cast your creautres after you've played chalice for 2.  If they somehow stop your vail, you've locked yourself out of the game.

#3) It means you cannot run Null Rod.

---------------------------------------
Why you need Null Rod.

To sucessfully run Back to Basics you really need to think about how your opponent is going to sidestep your b2b. 

1) they are going to have or get basics
2) artifact mana

For point 1, you have the ability to stifle fetchlands that will be finding those basics.  This is also why I advocate running Ghost Quarter.  If you Ghost Quarter a tapped basic land, they go in and rip another basic out of thier deck and possibly play 1 more spell because of it.  Now you have essentially moved one basic land from thier library into thier graveyard.  If they do NOT have a basic left in the library, then congrats, you just upped your stripmine count to 5.   If you encounter a deck that only runs basics, then its not like wasteland is any better than GQ.  Its not like you can even tap your wasteland twice for mana!  actually in that situation you have a tiny advantage to GQ because you can GQ your own basics in response to something like Strip Mine, or even Sink Hole (mono-black trick)... and efectively counter the effect because you get to search up a basic.

Onto point 2, Chalice for 0 works HALF the time to effectively stop moxen.  If you play second, then chalice for 0 is rather useless.  Also it lets them sit on moxen while they find their mox monkey, bounce, or maindeck artifact hate.  Null Rod goes online the moment it hits the board, and shuts down moxen as well as sol ring, mana vault, grim monolith, AND other non-mana artifacts that you need to be concerned with, Triskellion, Jar, even Ravager. 

As for artifact hate and bounce, that argument is a wash.  Both cards get hated by the same hate, with a slight advantage going to null rod because it has a CC of 2 rather than 0. null rod is reatively save against gorilla shaman (mox monkey) because it costs {5} to smash rather than {1}.  Also more decks are running repeal as an answer to chalice for 0, so a very slight advantage to null rod there as well.

-----------------------------------
On the topic of the "Right" bounce spell.

Quote
Your bounce choices (Curfew, Repeal, Rushing River) are not good.  Curfew is crap, run Unsummon at the very least, but if you want a 1 CC bouncer, Chain of Vapor is probably the most flexible. 

Chain of Vapor is probably the worst spell you could choose, anyone suggesting it should READ the decklist befor they suggest it.  Why on earth would you give your opponent the oppertunity to sac an otherwise worthless land (because it doesn't untap) to bounce your null rod or b2b??  moveing on.

Echoing Truth, is a staple bounce spell.  No arguements outa me on this one.

Rushing River is very powerful, but can come at a steep cost.  In a deck shooting for the long game, I could see it being good.

Curfew I think is the tech of the future.  As Oath starts running more and more "Safe" creatures, cards like Diabolic Edict and Curfew start to shine as actual solutions to the right problems.  Also if your going to run that Thalako Seer, then Curfew cantrips.  The general theory being, you can always choose a "crappier" creautre than your opponent because you run an army of crappy creatures.  So no matter what they return, your going to be gaining an advantage with this card. 

--------------------
Final correction:

Quote
It seems the only way to play Back to Basics on turn 1 or 2 is if you draw your Lotus for turn one or draw Sapphire for turn 2. I would try to play a mana base of full moxen and run Chalice of the Void over Null Rod, that way you can still play Aether Vial. 

There is NO reason to play b2b on turn 1.  thats like playing Tanglewire turn 1 on the play... It won't do anything.  b2b has it's power in the late game, so running full moxen to power down a b2b, and cutting null rod to do it, is takeing the deck backwards!  Playing b2b on turn 3 or 4 is when it gets powerful.
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merfolkOTPT
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« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2006, 11:57:53 am »

@Harlequin Great post thank you

So i think with all the discussion on the site so far we should probably start the deck again keeping all these things in mind.
3x Null rod is a must without some kind of artifact hate.
3x Back to basics is fine without moxen
2-4 slots main should be bounce of some kind
aether vial is unneccesary unless we run voidmage which is not out of the question.
Ghost quarter might be the right call we should check it out.


mana hate package(9):
3x Null Rod
3x B2B
3x Stifle

including lands(4-5):
1x Strip Mine
3-4x Wasteland Ghost/Quarter I really want to test the difference.

other disruption(10):
4x Fow
2x Echoing Truth
2x Disrupt

broken stuff:
1x ancestal recall
1x timewalk


This is 24 slots taken up we have probably 18 more lands and other mana sources so this leaves us 18 spots for creatures. Which creatures do we want to use? Possible choices include Waterfront Bouncer, Ninja, Thalakos seer, Voidmage, Spiketail, Suq' ata Firewalker, CoF, Dan-Dan, and Stormscape apprentice.

We also need to get a good side board or some talk of sideboard issues.  To get things rolling is curfew a good choice out of the board for untargetabble creatures?  Should we run extract against oath? Is energy flux worthwhile in a meta that is evolving away from stax? 








 
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« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2006, 12:27:00 pm »

Very good start, Now we're seeing eye to eye.

The creature package is very important to the speed of your deck.  You have to think in your mind what do I want to do on turn 1, turn 2, and turn 3.  My personal preferance is:

Turn 1: Creature
Turn 2: Ninja or Curiosity
Turn 3: Threats

However.  If your give yourself plenty of Stifles and Disrupts your turn might look more like:
Turn1: Stifle or disrupt
Turn2: Creature || Null Rod
Turn3: Ninja      || Creature
Turn4: b2b
Turn5: threats

If that is the case, then running 2cc creatures like the Seer is fine.  But you might want to increase your Disrupt and stifle counts, to ensure you arn't sitting on your bum for the first turn.   

Ninja + Seer is an interesting Tech, esp if your deside to put Curfew in your deck somewhere (it could easily be SB matterial)  But Ninja from Seer only goes live on turn 3. when you recieve a mega boost in card advantage.  If you keep this tech running for you, then perhaps running a lotus petal will improve your turn 1 to 2 plans.

Another option is running a combination of [card]Flying Men[/card] + Ninja + Curiosity like I out lined in my post.  The problem with flying men is that they typically do not do anything without curiosity or Ninja in hand.  Also they can be a tempting turn 1 drop when perhaps you should be holding onto that stifle mana. 

As for Firewalkers, they are not that bad, esp if you want to run with Curiosity.  But if your at the 3cc level, a Control Stealing creature is vastly superior to a "pingger"  Take a look at particularly [card]Old Man of the Sea[/card].  Not the cheapest card on the market (dollar wise) but definately worth his investment for any deck where your firewalkers are needed.  Even if your opponnent doesn't have creatures hes a 2/3 body.  You could also try Seasinger as a "budget" old man.  Seasinger is definately good against Tinker, Oath and Tog, but if you you have a heavy Mono-R and RG Zoo deck meta then Seasinger would clearly take a backseat to Old Man of the Sea. 

Waterfront bouncer is ok, he is REALLY a metagame call.  If you find that you need him, then run him.  I think in my metagame I would push him to the sideboard for more aggressive creatures.   A good combo with Waterfront bouncer is Gilded Drake.  This gives you another type of Budget "theft."  (because you can keep returning the Guilded Drake to your hand with the bouncer).  This is a major headache two card combo for any aggro-based deck.

Another creature just to take a peak at is Serendib Efreet.  Definately a powerhouse at the 3cc level.

So, there ya go... take your pick!  And I'll be sure to give it my 'inspection.'
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merfolkOTPT
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« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2006, 04:17:59 pm »

EDIT: a stupid idea was contained here and deleted

Back to the discussion... My creature base is looking like
4 ninja
4 seer
3 dan dan
3 voidmage
3 spiketail hatchling

Comments questions?

The counter base was added to and changed a little from 4 Fow 3 stifle 2 disrupt to - 2 disrupt -2 creatures +4 Force spike.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2006, 12:49:02 am by merfolkOTPT » Logged
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