Every aggro control should begin with U

[Guli]

If you want to be competitive in Vintage with aggro/control (fish) it is in my opinion necessary to begin with a Blue card list. There is no better disruption than Force of Will in fish. It simply is amazing. The reason is simple, it is free it does not counteract with your gameplan: drop utility creatures while trying to disrupt. Another card that falls in the same category is Daze. In my current list i am not using Daze though just Force.

Another blue card that is absolutely powerfull and should be added in aggro control is Meddling Mage. You drop a 2/2 bear and at the same time you disrupt your opponents gameplan? I don't get it, WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT with a fish deck??  :lol:

The fact that Ancestral Recall and Time Walk are blue give me all the more reason to begin with a Blue core.

4 Force of Will
4 Meddling Mage
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

Then i always follow my logics. We got the gold colored Mage. There is white involved. This is not bad on the contrary i think white is almost as important as Blue. There are some really nice (utility) creatures that are white. (Kataki,True Believer,Samurai,Jötun Grunt,lions,hounds,...)

The third color is the splash. I always go for black because you have access to Dark Confidant, Negator and some cute tutoring if you wish.

But what about white? Which creatures should be added? Not a very easy question in my opinion, however, i can say this: you should know your meta very well cause SideBoard is very important in Fish. You really want to have the correct creature distribution in main deck and SB.

It is widely accepted that fish should opt for mana denial with wasteland,strip mine,kataki,null rod (stifle can also be a great mana denial card, it even gains you a tempo). But i have problems when i have to accept by blocking my mind to every other option. Is everything explored and is mana denial the best possible option available?

White also has Swords to Plowshares 'aka' the best creature removal spell for 1cc you gonna get!

Before i decided i was going to write a little about fish i had something on my mind i wanted to share. it is related to the new white soldier.

Jötun Grunt


Creature - Giant Soldier

Cumulative upkeep - Put two cards in a single graveyard on the bottom of their owner's library. (At the beginning of your upkeep, put an age counter on this permanent, then sacrifice it unless you pay its upkeep cost for each age counter on it.)

4/4

I did some goldfishing and this guy completely destroys every graveyard in play and it does it faster than you think.
You need to fill your graveyard and at the same time your opponents grave. But while doing this we must also not exagerate. Just a good amount is enough to keep this guy alive for 2-3 turns (wich is enough). So you should not build your entire deck around this guy. I think wastelands and fetchlands are great to do this. Another card that would be nice for this is Duress. Another cool trick is to use this guy and tutors to find your Recall a couple of times. But to be honost i don't think this guy gives you that much time. It comes on the board, it beats2-3 times and then dies while emptying the graves. If you want to abuse Recall you should look into a  Dredge based decklist. I expect someone coming with a decklist soon. I am not going to go that way. I simply want to temporarily use this guy and make sure it did enough damage and pressure to give me a winning position (in other words game winning).

Maybe this card should be used in a discard deck wuth Duress,Cabal,Hymns in theory it sounds a perfect fit.

This thread however is about UWB Aggro/Control which also needs graveyard hate. Normally Wretch is used to take care of that but this guy does not seem worse cause it doesn't need mana and provides a faster clock.

4 Force of Will
4 Meddling Mage
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Jötun Grunt
4 Duress
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
6 Fetchland

I don't know if Null Rod/Kataki should be used. Or more black Dark Confidant/Negator/Demonic...

What about darkblast? It has dredge (Jötun)
Full set of moxes? What about lotus petal, it can be used to feed Jötun?

I think Confidant should be added but the negator should stay be at best Sided. Seal of cleansing also sounds nice. However a big problem for this deck is Chalice @ 2. I think Chain of Vapor is better and it is more versitale. What is he going to bounce back anyway? If a chalice 2 hits the board im finished and it doesnt matter if he bounces something back almost everything is 2cc!

Brainstorm should be added aswell to get your search going while filling graveyard. What about stifle? I think 3 would be good. But all of this sounds so classic. I like originality.

Post away

[frolll]

Jötun Grunt is not a card that I would use on my graveyard, but is a nice card against Ichorid or decks that simply abuse their graveyard.
Dropping this guy against Ichorid is really, really huge, and decent when facing Gifts or Slaver or a deck in the like, as IT. Shutting down Yawgmoth's Will is a good way to favorize your victory.

For your build, Dark Confidant seems like a natural 4 off, since he is a good draw engine AND a beater, which is not "amazing" but he is simply undercosted for its effects, and provides a clock (don't laugh) when filling your hands with cards.

[Guli]

Ofcourse you will first empty his graveyard and start eating from your own when it is means keeping him 1 more turn on the board. Note that you do can chose from a different graveyard per counter.

When i think more about it, i think this guy can give discard decks another chance in the meta.

4 Duress
4 Hymn to tourach
2 Cabal Therapy

4 Dark Confidant
4 Jötun Grunt
3 Phyrexian Negator

3 Swords to plowshares
2 Darkblast
3 Infernal Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
3 Null Rod

4 Dark Ritual
1 mox jet
1 mox pearl
1 black lotus
8 swamp
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted delta
3 scrubland
4 wasteland
1 strip mine

It's raw, its posted quickly but what you guys think about it.

[chrissss]

Jötun Grunt is a great piece of work. 4/4 for 2, and your opponent wont be happy to use his yawgwill with this in play.
I havent tested it, but I will do so soon.

you deck looks good guli, but for me I have never used negators succesfully. red is big in my metagame, and the negator is suicide when I use it in a deck
but against other decks its great, first turn ritual and negator can win games.
you do have a lot of discard. dont get me wrong, discard is great,but sometimes when further in the game, and your both waiting to topdeck that wincard, you dont want to draw another hymn or cabal.

[Guli]

I realize the Jötun completely wrecks Ichorid when he is alive. But i don't think the Jötun is only good for that. Don't forget that he is a 4/4 wich is good against other fish while he is on the board. This guy is a solid 4/4 already and can be used to shut down opponents graveyard plans. But it doesn't end there. I think he can be used for more things.

I am trying to understand the card more. Its not TOG but it kinda eats graveyard like tog. Why wouldn't you use your own graveyard when you can keep him on board? You are basicly converting your used cards into 4 damage...

[klu]

Ninja of the deep ours looks like a good card with jotun

[Kieranwolf]

Hmm. Force is free disruption, it's true, but so is Unmask.

Cabal Therapy is probably my favorite black discard spell right now. It's especially useful after a Duress, but its flashback ability means you can replay it if you guess wrong anyway. Plus, it gets rid of creatures (unlike Duress).

To me, Hymn's greatest advantage over the above is the fact that it can hit lands. It costs BB, and when I cast it I sometimes feel like I should be dropping threats or lock pieces instead.

I'd actually think about (3) Chalice in that slot. It creates dead cards in your opponent's hand  and comes out with zero counters much faster than Null Rod. It's really good with Dark Ritual as well, and is definitely more versatile (and less devastating) than Rod. It isn't useless with Rod on the field since it can be dropped for 1 or 2 (depending on your mana and your hand/opponent's hand), but it still provides redundancy.

The only things Chalice can't hit is lands, but you can still kill those with strip effects.

I still maintain that Black has much of the best disruption. In fact, it has fast beats, card-drawing, tutors and mana acceleration too.

Blue only truly beats it on a couple of those levels, aside from Drain and the ability to abuse colorless mana more effectively.