Fish or Oath deck for my metagame...

[Grapton]

( discuss about Oath below.. )
Hi there..I know that four topics below my one is topic about UW Fish, but I think this is more specific. Next month I want to go to vintage tournament in my area. There won't be any powered decks(or minimum) and a lot of players will have modified extended or legacy decks. Also it will be no-proxy tournament. I decided to build fish deck(probably UW), because it's easy to modify it for full power metagame to future. Decks I'm expecting are Oaths and Goblins. Plus how I said modified extended decks like Affinity, Ichorid, the Rock? etc..Now I'm deciding between two variants of UW Fish.
 First one is more aggro. It plays Isamaru + Stormscape Apperentice like 1cc drop, because I want to play second turn Ninja of the Deep Hours. Also it plays 4 Silver Knight. I think that this man is necessary when I'm expecting goblins just as True Beliver is necessary in full power meta. Other creatures here are classic Meddling Mage and Kami of Ancient Law, because of Oath, Food Chain or Dragon. For controling I have classic counters - 4 Force of Will and 3 Daze. 4 Swords to Plowshares are necessary in aggro meta too. For drawing I have 4 Brainstorms. Now I don't know what other spells to play. I will have Null Rods in side, because in MD in most of games it should be absolutly unusefull. Also I can play 3 Stifles, but I need a creature in first turn more. Or any bouncing?
 Second one is more control. There isn't ninja engine. As creatures there are Meddling Mages, Silver Knights, Stormscape Apperentices and Kamis of Ancient Law. Other spells are similar with the first deck, but I'm definitely playing Stifles. But now I have a lot of free space. I can add Extract/Rootwater Thief stealing engine and build deck similar with decks from t8 from last tournaments. With this deck Oath matchup will be bye, but I don't know about matchup with agrro decks. Sure that both decks plays wastelands+strip mine and mishra's factories.

Which version do you think will be better in this meta? I'm glad for every help from you. I know it's hard for you to help me, because you are used to power meta. Thanks.

[AmbivalentDuck]

In that meta, I'd run Oath with maindeck Extracts and a little extra bounce for Meddling Mages because you should only be losing to the mirror match.

Fish is not appropriate in an environment where you're likely to see 3/3 creatures.  It's only good in environments where your opponents will be playing fast, focussed decks that really don't want to stop to deal with 1/1s and 2/2s.   Fish fundamentally operates by slowing the game to a pace where the fact that its disruption deals 2-3 points each turn matters because you're better prepared to interact with your opponent's game plan than they are with yours.  Against Goblins and the random t2 decks you'll face, you *will* lose.  They are better prepared to interact with your attack-step based game plan.

I would never expect to win against t2 Orzhov or Gruul aggro.

[TradeMark]

hm. from what i've seen in my little experience, u should be able to stop oaths, but fc goblins are extremely fast. gonna be hard to stop them all at once imo

[Guli]

In that meta, I'd run Oath with maindeck Extracts and a little extra bounce for Meddling Mages because you should only be losing to the mirror match.

Fish is not appropriate in an environment where you're likely to see 3/3 creatures.  It's only good in environments where your opponents will be playing fast, focussed decks that really don't want to stop to deal with 1/1s and 2/2s.   Fish fundamentally operates by slowing the game to a pace where the fact that its disruption deals 2-3 points each turn matters because you're better prepared to interact with your opponent's game plan than they are with yours.  Against Goblins and the random t2 decks you'll face, you *will* lose.  They are better prepared to interact with your attack-step based game plan.

I would never expect to win against t2 Orzhov or Gruul aggro.

i am pretty sure i would destroy that kinda decks.

[Grapton]

Thanks for a tip. You said me exactly what I was afraid you will say. Now this topic is probably good for nothing. If I will build the Oath deck do you think that 4c version(UGBw) is good choice? Black for tutors and SB disruption against controls or mirror and white for MD Swords to Plowshares. I think that StP are necessary in this meta and black hasn't any creature disruption which is comparable with StP. Also white allowed me to play Enlightened Tutor. I saw an Oath deck, which play for a tutor 2 Gifts Ungiven + Regrowth, Yawgmoth's Will, (possible revive?). Is it good idea? Also I don't have money for Mana Drains. Are they replaceable by Counterspell?

I'll probably change the topic's title...

[Harlequin]

I would say, don't replace drain with Counterspell.  Just grab a playset of duress in that slot.  For the aggro matches remeber that your giving them fuel to pound you with, so I would highly sugest something to hold the onslaught of creatures at bay.  Something like Propaganda is really nice for weenie / goblin style decks.  If your expecting Zoo-ish Fishy decks with fewer numbers of creatures (but still dangerously fast).  Vedalken Shackles can go along way (think of them as non-creature old man of the sea).  Unless ofcourse your thinking about a 5 color manabase (city/gemstone/orchard...).

Lastly I would STRONGLY suggest maindecking 3 creatures.  Against aggro matches sometimes they can get around your angels.  Haveing 3 maindeck means you can oath that one extra time.  I personally like Ancient Hydra, but I am in a vast minority there.  If your expecting to see some welder-tricks style decks then perhapse Hydra might be the right choice.  Hydra is nice because he can potentially control several threats all at once, esp if your expecting Savanah lions, Jungle Cats, and Jackle pups.   Other than that Tidespout Tyrant doesn't look all that bad, but your spell base might be too light for him.   But as far as controling the aggro threat, nothing beats Blazing Archon.  Razia/Akroma/Archon is probably best.  I would personally run Razia/Akroma/Hydra ... but then again without drains and moxen, Hydra may not be as good as would think.  If your not that interested in archon, Thunder Dragon, or Crater Helion can get the job done.

As far as the sideboard is concerned.  Get yourself 2 (or possibly 3) Spawning Pits or Skull Clamps.  This will dramatically improve your mirror match.  Spawning pit is nice because its instant speed, and means you don't need to fight as hard, you can just keep them off oath every time they give you a token.  Skullclamp is great when you each have an orchard in play because you draw tons of cards. Its also good if your run plenty of bounce because eventually you will eat enough tokens to draw some bounce and an orchard of your own... but of course you may be dead before that. 

[AmbivalentDuck]

Remand or Mana Leak might be better in the Drain slot than Duress.  It's a creature heavy environment, after all.  The biggest question in my mind is how much money you're willing to dump into this?  For instance, do you already own dual lands?  If not, could you pick up Trop, Volcanic, and Underground Sea as one-ofs?  Also, I would *certainly* run Tinker -> something.  Depending on how many Null Rods you expect, either Triskelion or Sundering Titan.  You'll see ridiculous amounts of DSC hate, so he's not worth it.

[Grapton]

I don't know the exact number now...I never counted it. No. I don't have dual lands yet, but I think if I will play 4 Orchards + 2 City of Brass that 2 Tropical, 1 Tundra and 1 Sea + 4-6 fetch lands will be ok...? I don't see any reason to play red...What about the rest of manabase? Do you think that Crypt, Sol Ring, Vault, Lotus Petal and 4 Elvish Spirit Guide will be ok? Propaganda/Prison is nice idea against aggro. Thanks...

[Harlequin]

Remand, Leak, and Tinker really need moxen to work.  I figgure your best turn 1 dirupion an unpowered deck has is likely going to be duress even If they are gripping only creatures and land.   At best you rip a Counterspell, a REB, a STP, an Edict, or a Disenchant/Naturalize.  Remanding a low CC creatures is never really amazing anyhow.

As far as buget is concerned
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Tendo Icebridge
1 Mox Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
(+ your crop rotation, and 4 Forbidden orchard, that you would run anyhow)

Is way cheaper than crap-tons of Duels and Fetches if you dont already own them.  If you go that route, it might be worth while haveing 3 sacred ground on the board so you can have a hope against wasteland.  It also makes you Titan-proof (and you may end up against some unpowered welder decks that ues titan).

And definately do not run Elvish Spirit Guide...

[Grapton]

Sorry, but what's REB? ... With this manabase I worry that if something will be wrong and I won't kill opponent soon I won't have enough lands in late game. Now I have 4 fetch lands so I think I'll buy 2 duals. I think that this investment is good. Also what do you think about Spirit Guides? Should I play Chrome or Diamond Mox? Mana Crypt, Mana Vault, Sol Ring?

[Harlequin]

REB = Red elemental blast,  that and Pyroblast is a tool that Goblins and Zoo use against Blue decks.

I think you should re-think your logic on Elvish Spirit Guide... Yes, hes really good for playing oath fast, but remember hes going to get in the way of your oathing when your digging for "creatures"

As for Artifact mana:
Lotus petal = Definately
Chrome mox = meh, possibly, I tend not to jump up and down over this card, it depends on how fast you want the deck to be, without normal mox, I would focus on stability rather than speed.
Mox Diamond = I would say yes, esp if your going 5 color (its good for tossing Icebridges and stuff)
Sol Ring = Possibly, if your planing on running Propaganda in the main then I would say yes.  You have to look at how you plan on spending 2 colorless each turn
Crypt = Possibly, again... I would put this second to sol ring.  If your going for some big-stuff like FoF then yes, otherwise no.
Vault = Probably not, a colorless dark ritual that damages you each turn after you use it is not really optimal for oath.
ESG = No, Oathing up a 2/2 for the loss!



The problem.  If you take the deck into 5 color land (as I suggested) then you loose alot of shuffle effects in the form of fetchlands.  I would highly suggest running Lat-Nam's Legacy in 5 color base builds.  As it auto-shuffles so it tends to be better than Brainstorm when your light on shuffle effects.  However 2 duel lands and a boat load of fetches and basics may not be that good either... esp if your planing on running 4 colors.  If your going Duels I would say just drop white all together.  You loose Balance and swords, which hurts but is not nessisarily terribly painful.  One of the best uses of Balance is when your on the Play and you have tons of moxen, a land, and balance.  That way it turns into "your opponent discard 4-5 cards" and you just randomly win with it.  Without Moxen Balace is only onesided Wrath of God for 2... which don't get me wronge ... Is amazing.  But it may not be worth destroying your mana base over and/or spending $100s to work into the deck.

Another option for "fast" mana is Life From the Loam and/or Regrowth along side your fetchlands.  Both these cards can be used in a pinch to recoupe some mana if your getting too heavily wastelanded.  Fastbond can be randomly good with this as well.   However most of the time fastbond makes bad hands look keepable (as in 4 lands a fastbond and 2 spells).

==========
Heres a Decklist I whipped up:
4  Forbidden Orchard
4  City of Brass
4  Gemstone Mine
3  Tendo Icebridge
4  Mishrahs Factory

1  Lotus Petal
1  Sol Ring
1  Mox Diamond

4  Oath of Druids
1  Akroma
1  Razia
1  Blazing Archon
1  Gaea's Blessing

4  Force of Will
3  Duress
3  Propaganda
3  Swords to plowshare

4  Brainstorm
3  Impulse
3  Lat Nam's Legacy
1  Balance
1  Rushing River

1  Demonic
1  Vamp
1  Crop Rotaion
1  Regrowth
1  Enlightend Tutor


I Added Mishrah's Factory because he is randomly amazing against your own Spirit Tokens.  also he reverts back to a non-creature just in time for you to activate oath.  Hes also great for keeping 2/2's at bay (remeber you can declare him as a blocker then before damage is on the stack, tap himself to pump himself to a 3/3).

[AmbivalentDuck]

I was thinking that a first turn Oath would be critically strong in his metagame.  Maybe Mana Crypt would be worth running just as a "mox." And I agree that ESG is horrible.

Do you also think Misdirection would be randomly good against the StPs, Bolts, and Naturalizes he's going to see? 

And no insult, but I think Duress and Propaganda are trash.  I really think he wants at least one Sensei's Divining Top and the ability to counter spells without Force of Will.   And he needs a way to win without Oath.  Chalice for 2 and Meddling Mage happen.  He isn't running a power/tutor suite conducive to finding bounce in a pinch and then getting the Oath into play *protected* the same turn.   Oh, and Mind Twist is randomly very good.

[Grapton]

Yeah..you are right with ESGs...very bad idea...Misdirection sounds nice, but don't you think that 6(2 misdirections) spells, which make me to remove blue card is much? If i will play sensei's diving top I have to play at least 4 fetch lands. Why only one sensei? As a target for tutor? Isn't it a little counterproductive? 3 pieces of propaganda is probably much when I can tutor it...

[Grapton]

And what about take out black and instead of tutor play 3 Intuitions + 4 Accumulated Knowledges? I think that in this meta is white more important than black....?

[Harlequin]

Intuition and AK is, again, much better if you have drain and off-color moxen to burn.  Here is why duress is a good fit in my book, and some other options are not as good.

Firstly, anything that would be misdirrected can be duressed away.  The same is not true the other way around (like seal of cleansing, duress, tinker, draw7s, etc).  Secondly, Duress gives an unpowered deck something of relavence to do on turn 1.  Mindtwist is randomly good when your running off color mana.  Again this deck is restricted in the amount of mana it has.  You have to look at the deck that has 1 mana turn 1, 2 mana turn 2 and if its lucky 3 mana turn 3.  Lastly, any deck that has nothing to duress is almost an autowin because they need creatures to win.

so here are the plays by priority:

Turn 1 - Duress, Brainstorm, Tutor
Turn 2 - Oath, Impulse/Latnams, Tutor, Duress, Brainstorm
Turn 3 - situational

As I was thinking about this, another card occured to me. 

-1 Enlightend Tutor
-1 Rushing River
-1 Regrowth

+3 Repeal

Repeal will hit those threats that slip through namely: Meddling Mage for oath, and Chalice at 2.

Also this deck lets you run Choke in the sideboard to slow down those fishies.

[AmbivalentDuck]

I still think he's needs an answer to topdecked Naturalize other than FoW.  I mean, he will be playing the control role fairly often and he needs more firepower than Fish.

[Grapton]

I will think about duress, but I won't put in more than 3 pieces. Also I will keep Enlightened Tutor and I will probably add one Pernicious Deed. I think it's good against goblins etc. as well as against Moxes. And what do you think about Research(/Developement)? I think this card could be good...against control I'll find Simic Sky Swallower and against aggro Ancient Hydra or Triskelion....

[AmbivalentDuck]

Living Wish (for things you can hardcast) is better.  Pretty Wish targets:

Maze of Ith
Strip Mine
Gilded Drake
Spike Weaver
Llawan, Cephalid Empress
(Sleeper Agent)
Shard Phoenix