The Cool New Thing in Vintage (Izzet Combo)

[bertmathis]

Xerox (P9 Charlotte July 1 & July 2)

Artifacts/Mana

1 Darksteel Colossus
2 Pithing Needle
7 SoLoMoxen
1 Mana Crypt
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Island
1 Library of Alexandria

Creatures
3 Izzet Guildmage

Instants
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
4 Accumulated Knowledge
2 Intuition
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Echoing Truth
2 Cunning Wish
1 Fire // Ice
1 Reset
1 Mystical

Sorceries
1 Tinker
1 Time Walk
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawg Will

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Fling (Cut for day two)
1 REB (+1 for day two)
1 Pyroblast
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rebuild
1 Ebony Charm
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Fire // Ice
1 Stifle

There it is, we have been working on this list for close to six months. I'll be glad to answer any questions, and happy to hear any criticism.


Edit: Sorry Hi-Val, I am at the hotel and have to pay to get internet connection, my time is going to run out shortly and I wanted to go ahead and post a list for everyone who was asking. When I get home tomorrow I will have a more thorough post ready. Feel free to delete this thread if you like, and I will just post a new tomorrow, or I can just edit again tomorrow, it's up to you.

P.S. For anyone who doesn't know, this deck took 2nd Day 1 of SCG Charlotte

[Hi-Val]

Did this thing T8? My life partner Rian informs me that it apparently did. I wouldn't have known it from the thread, because apart from a decklist, there's zero information about this! Please read the rules and add more to this post.

Hi-Val

[Webster]

What sets this drain-based combo-control deck above the others?

Yes, the question is short; the answer, however, should be thorough should you reply. Drain-TPS and tog as well as gifts and burning slaver (to an extent) follow similar paths to victory. What makes your 3-card-combo.dec superior?

Yes, I am skeptical. Make your claims and back them up.


Web

[b-tings]

You and your team are soooooo greedy.

Seriously, how regularly do you have the four+ mana per turn necessary to make this guy better than Isochron Scepter within a relevant timeframe? I like the cute Reset kills with Fire/Ice and all, and I can see how Izzet GM could crack a Drain mirror in half if you both hand 10000 mana, but it looks like you're really bending over backwards to accomodate that possibility. When was the last time Intuition/AK was fast enough for this format?

I will grant you, though, Izzet GM + Time Walk was pretty hot the last time I cube-drafted it.

[Methuselahn]

How much, in your opinion, was the success of this deck a result of surprise factor?

Again, more content please, just a list is seriously lacking, whether you placed at SCGP9 or not.

Thanks

[bdg4life]

     The reset, fire/ice kill is not the main idea of the deck, it was put in as an alternate win condition. The idea behind the deck is to abuse the izzet guildmage. The intuition/Ak engine is the ideal draw suite in this deck, as an ak can be copied. This deck wins because of card advantage but can also win via comboing out with reset, and a draw spell to find cunning wish  or fire//ice.
     
     Im suprised people think it is difficult for a control deck to get 4+ mana online within a game. The question was asked what makes this better than Sceptre, sceptre cannot imprint a timewalk,demonic tutor,merchant scroll, and any other powerful 2 casting cost broken sorcery in T1. The guildmage can. Imagine this senerio, which im sure has occured often: Your facing another control deck, and both of you empty your hand fighting a counter war, you untap topdeck ancestral, not bad huh,but what if you can turn that draw 3 into draw 6? draw 9? What if you top deck a demonic tutor then copy it 2 times? You have just turned that demonic tutor into an ancestral recall that you pick the 3 cards you get.
     
     What sets this apart from other control decks is its ability to turn 1 card into many cards.
     
     Both day 1 and day 2, once people saw some of the insane plays that were made with the guildmage, he became a must counter, must stop card, much like goblin welder, dark confidant and any other  undercosted creature that breaks a game wide open.
     
      I think one misconception is that you have to make all the copies at once. You only need to announce 1 copy at the time of the spell, after the copy resolves you can choose to copy again, as long as the original spell is still on the stack.
Scenerio: Your board position    sapphire,lotus,Island,Island,Sol ring,mana crypt, Izzet guildmage(Im sure many control decks have had a similar board in the past, its not that hard to imagine is it?) You play ancestral taping an Island, then copy it taping Island and sol ring. Your opponent casts mana drain. In response you tap sapphire and mana crypt to copy the ancestral. Your opponent has no responses. The stack looks like this: ancestral, copy of ancestral, mana drain, copy of ancestral. The copy resolves, you draw 3 cards. In those 3 cards say  you draw a Fow and a blue card. The stack looks like this: ancestral, copy of ancestral, mana drain. You force the drain. Copy resolves you draw 3 cards. Stack now looks like this: ancestral. Now you can choose to break the lotus for 3 more blue and draw another 3 cards or you can let the original ancestral resolve. Lets say you choose to draw 3 more cards... break lotus copy ancestral. Copy resolves you draw 3, original resolves you draw 3. You have just drawn 12 cards of an ancestral recall, is it worth the mana you put into it? Will those 12 cards be enough to put you in control of the game?

   This is just an example, and scenerios like this did occur during the tourney,the card advantage that you got is enough to put you far ahead.
   Am I saying this is unbeatable, of course not. Am I saying this can do broken things like CS and Gifts that win when they do there thing? Yes.
   
     

[LotusHead]

I see something similar to Bob-Drain builds where the card advantage comes over time, with no life-loss to worry about, or fetching those pesky wastables too soon.  Fetches can go for islands to power out Guildmages

Xerox does run Tinker for Colossus withing a traditional control suite ala Tog2k6 and many other decks.  The Izzet GM doesn't die easily to DarkBlast (which may or may not be a threat out there) and pitches to Force of Will, unlike Bob.

I see this as "Tog" without worrying about the graveyard hate (beyond AK sucks if grave is gone).

I see this as a Combo/Control deck that can combo off through Chalice of the Void set at 0, 1, 2 (if IGM is out already), and under Null Rod, given 5 or more mana.

I see this a pretty fun deck that (piloted right) made top 8 at SCGP9. 

That being said, we all want a tourney report! (after you get some sleep, etc).

Congrats.

[That0neguy]

When someone casts a gifts to set up a will doesn't it take much more mana than 5???  So why is this so unreasonable?  It seems like it could set up some pretty stupid plays like time walk copy 2x tinker on the first turn then will time walk for the win.  Guildmage could also act as an incredible tool in counter wars by just leaving mana up to copy the spell if its countered.  People are not going to want to walk a counter into a spell if that spell will just be copied in response even if you were not going to be greedy and go for multiples of that spell.  Besides this runs many more control elements for various metagame bombs while retaining tinker collosus and several tutors.  I must admit that the intuition AK draw engine seems a bit slow still not awful.  Would it be worth it to just run like thirst (your already running a ton of artifact mana + pithing needles) anyways even if it doesn't have the some synergy with the guildmage?

I was wondering why there is no reset in the board as a wish target though since if duressed early you have no way of getting it back for the combo option or did this just not ccome up very often and they would just take somehting else.

[herbig]

The deck can also kill with Ancestral Recall, was this ever utilized during the tournament?

[Machinus]

I played against this on day two, and it was the AKs that won the match for it.

[bertmathis]

What sets this drain-based combo-control deck above the others?

Yes, the question is short; the answer, however, should be thorough should you reply. Drain-TPS and tog as well as gifts and burning slaver (to an extent) follow similar paths to victory. What makes your 3-card-combo.dec superior?

Yes, I am skeptical. Make your claims and back them up.


Web

I really don't know what to say here other than insane card advantage wins us the game against most of those decks. The only deck that absolutely slaughtered us this weekend was GG Gifts, which I believe was running REB/Pyroblasts main. Copying Ancestral/AK/DT/Merchant Scroll/ Achieves extreme card advantage. I also often found myself not copying AK for 3-4 quite a few times in the tourny if I was playing against drains, which often prevented my spells from being countered when I knew my  opponent had a counter in hand. In this aspect Izzet Guildmage becomes essentially a 3-cost counterspell, because my opponent knew that I would just copy in response to countermagic.

Also, Izzet guildmage + mana drain continues to break the drain mirror open. I never lost a counter war w. Drain on the stack and IGM on the board.

I have never seen a deck with "So Many Broken Play's" as this one has, atleast not a control deck. Against my round 1 opponent playing gifts on day 2 (the only day I played the deck) I went something like Time Walk +Copy, Copy Resolves, Copy again. 3 Walk turns ahead of me. next turn, Will-> Play Tolarian, Walk + Copy, Recall, Merchant Scroll for Cunning wish, pass. Next turn. Wish for recall-> recall->copy, copy resolves, draw Colossus + brainstorm + other, copy again, resolve copy -> draw tinker plus other, resolve original, brainstorm, tinker -> Colossus w/ 3 uninterupted turns ahead of me...

Granted, any deck should win the game with like 13 mana available on the will turn, but it is insanely fun to see the look on your opponents face when you have 3-4 more turns to take without them getting to draw a single card. Izzet Guildmage plus Time Walk is soo good. As I said we have been tweeking this deck for close to 6 months, and at our most recent local tourny, I was playing against a teammate of mine in the mirror, and the match went to turns. He preceeded to talk all of the extra turns.

How much, in your opinion, was the success of this deck a result of surprise factor?

I feel sure that this deck suprised a lot of people. However, when Brandon went off with the combo in round one word spread fast about "OMG IZZET-SOLIDARTY!!!!22132" We then got alot of questions regarding the deck, and I believe everyone knew what it was by about round 3 day one. However, people still didn't know how to play against it properly, and for the most part I still don't believe people know how to play against it correctly. A friend of ours who knew the entire list came to me after our match and said "I had no idea how to board against you." Granted, day one 1/1 people playing the deck t8'ed, and day 2 0/3 t8'ed, so it is entirely possible that I am giving the deck way more credit than it deserves, but I still thoroughly believe that it is more the fact that it is a solid deck than the suprise factor. Only time will tell.

You and your team are soooooo greedy.

Seriously, how regularly do you have the four+ mana per turn necessary to make this guy better than Isochron Scepter within a relevant timeframe? I like the cute Reset kills with Fire/Ice and all, and I can see how Izzet GM could crack a Drain mirror in half if you both hand 10000 mana, but it looks like you're really bending over backwards to accomodate that possibility. When was the last time Intuition/AK was fast enough for this format?

I will grant you, though, Izzet GM + Time Walk was pretty hot the last time I cube-drafted it.

Seriously, it happens quite often. This is a control deck. I don't think any blue based control deck can win without hitting 4+ mana.

The deck can also kill with Ancestral Recall, was this ever utilized during the tournament?

I don't know that this was ever utilized during the tourny, but I do know that we were aware of this route long before going into it. however, reset + draw spell + IGM was always GG whether we went with fire, cunning wish for charm, or AR.

I must admit that the intuition AK draw engine seems a bit slow still not awful.  Would it be worth it to just run like thirst (your already running a ton of artifact mana + pithing needles) anyways even if it doesn't have the some synergy with the guildmage?

We tested every draw engine for this deck and the AK's just seemed to work the best. a main point in the AK's over anything else is that, when you have IGM + Reset, if you only have an AK in hand, you can go off and use AK to find Fire/ Cunning wish to win, this doesn't work with any other draw engine.

I really don't remember enough of the tourny to post a report, but I would be glad to continue answering questions.

[Disburden]

I had a brief question.

This deck, as mentioned, seems to need some good amounts of mana to make copies of spells off the Guildmage. With so many colorless requirements and no thirsts to make maindeck needles better, did anyone try more mana accelerants?

Mana Vault and Lotus Petal seem to be good additions to the decks mana needs. What was the reason for picking Pithing needles over more mana, when other Drain decks like Slaver don't bother to run them? I would think even petal would improve you casting an Izzet Guildmage early, so why not? I'd like to hear the reasoning behind this.

I love the list, it is very interesting.

Nick.

[Neonico]

From how i feel the deck, i dont think that lotus petal is needed, at least no for a turn one Izzet guildmage because you need to cast it and be ready to protect it. But lotus petal is allways good in drain based decks because it allows fisrt turn mana drains (one more turn 1 drain enabler is allways good) at the cost of one less land. At the opposite, the mana vault seems to be an auto include as it helps you to pay 3/4 of 2 Guildmage activations. Seems interesting.

My question regarding the deck is : is the Reset/Fire//Ice finish really needed ? As stated in your example, you won the game from guildmage without the combo finish. Time walk seems to be the real threat to copy, both to provide unrecoverable board position for your opponent and to win. Did you try cutting the Maindeck reset for something like perhaps Vampiric tutor or misdirection ? I feel that the combo finish is just a bonus but not the primary win condition.

Also considering you like to play Standart cards () and multiple copies time walk becomes  your primary win condition, doesnt dark confidant deserve testing ?

I really like the list too, first because you play standart cards (and i love standart cards in vintage) second because you play a reset finish.

[TK]

as far as the deck being any good id say its only ok. We kinda talked about it day one after the tourny back at the hotel and decided it was almost like tog but with izzets.

I played aginst it and drew with it due to time. i have the match details in my report "the ss will never win again".

There is a few resons why the deck was able to due as well as it did.

1. the metagame was mediocre
2. there were multibple people running around with this thing
3. the players running it seemed to be fairly competent players

put these three things together and factor in the fact that the field was only 50 people its almost guaranteed that the deck will make top 8 one day.

I may be wrong and the deck may be the nuts, but im just saying i played against it and my opponent was fairly lucky to walk away with game one.

But congrats to the guys that played it, and for the new concept (reset seems a little janky though)

[SonataOfTheCathedral]

To the builder of this deck:

I'm sure many of us have thought about monoblue hightide several times. It would seem much more consistent and the need to tap out for a turn two Guildmage would never occur. Also you would have an insanely stable manabase. I would assume you tested it out or at least put some serious thought into it, what did you end up concluding?

[froz3nn]

its probably because if its mono blue, you cant copy sorceries, so you cant copy timewalk, which i heard was some good.

[M.Solymossy]

This deck is terrible.  It won because of suprise, but it will not be a serious contender going into gencon, like the new SS will be.

When adults make assertions, they back them up with facts and reasoning so they don't look like blowhards. May I suggest this route?

-HiVal

[bertmathis]

I had a much better response typed up, but then my computer decided to die just as I was finishing, so this is the repost.

I had a brief question.

This deck, as mentioned, seems to need some good amounts of mana to make copies of spells off the Guildmage. With so many colorless requirements and no thirsts to make maindeck needles better, did anyone try more mana accelerants?

Mana Vault and Lotus Petal seem to be good additions to the decks mana needs. What was the reason for picking Pithing needles over more mana, when other Drain decks like Slaver don't bother to run them? I would think even petal would improve you casting an Izzet Guildmage early, so why not? I'd like to hear the reasoning behind this.

I love the list, it is very interesting.

Nick.

Actually Mana Vault was never considered, I don't really know why, perhaps one of my mates has an answer there. We did however try lotus petal in order for turn 1 drain mana, but needles tended to give more solid results. stopping wastelands, welders and bazaar's tended to have much more positive results than putting up turn one drain mana. the only matches where petal really won over needle #2 were Long and Gifts.

My question regarding the deck is : is the Reset/Fire//Ice finish really needed ? As stated in your example, you won the game from guildmage without the combo finish. Time walk seems to be the real threat to copy, both to provide unrecoverable board position for your opponent and to win. Did you try cutting the Maindeck reset for something like perhaps Vampiric tutor or misdirection ? I feel that the combo finish is just a bonus but not the primary win condition.

Also considering you like to play Standart cards () and multiple copies time walk becomes  your primary win condition, doesnt dark confidant deserve testing ?

I really like the list too, first because you play standart cards (and i love standart cards in vintage) second because you play a reset finish.

Honestly, we need a better secondary win condition than simply IGM beats, and I tend to like the reset win more than ToA if only for the fact that it is reset . As for Confidant, I just don't think he is good in a deck w. Colossus, that alone is too much of a liability, not to mention 4 FoW.

To the builder of this deck:

I'm sure many of us have thought about monoblue hightide several times. It would seem much more consistent and the need to tap out for a turn two Guildmage would never occur. Also you would have an insanely stable manabase. I would assume you tested it out or at least put some serious thought into it, what did you end up concluding?

Our idea when we set out to build said deck was to break IGM, that say, mono blue High Tide never crossed our minds. and like froz3nn said, copying sorceries is tooo good to pass up.

as far as the deck being any good id say its only ok. We kinda talked about it day one after the tourny back at the hotel and decided it was almost like tog but with izzets.

I played aginst it and drew with it due to time. i have the match details in my report "the ss will never win again".

There is a few resons why the deck was able to due as well as it did.

1. the metagame was mediocre
2. there were multibple people running around with this thing
3. the players running it seemed to be fairly competent players

put these three things together and factor in the fact that the field was only 50 people its almost guaranteed that the deck will make top 8 one day.

I may be wrong and the deck may be the nuts, but im just saying i played against it and my opponent was fairly lucky to walk away with game one.

But congrats to the guys that played it, and for the new concept (reset seems a little janky though)

1)This is true, but in some instances made things a little harder on us. Day one Brandon's only loss in Swiss was to afinity, which we had NEVER Tested against. Then again, said afinity list went on to top 8, and Brandon beat him in the quater finals.

2)Day one there was only one person playing it, the person who t8'ed, day two there were 3 of them, and 2 of those were in contention to t8 until rounds 5 and 6.

3)There is no way this is right, there are no competent magic players in the south east

As for your match with George I didn't see game one, so I really don't know how lucky George got, but I do know that getting two unanswered swords of fire and ice and erayo, during your time extension right before turns is somewhat lucky as well.

Hey, thanks for the congratulations. As much as I didn't want to see the SS there, I was happy to see it doing well because I love to see new things in Vintage. It was also good to finally meet the ICBM guys, Dan wasn't nearly as  much of an ass as I thought he would be. Dare I say he was actually pretty cool.

This deck is terrible.  It won because of suprise, but it will not be a serious contender going into gencon, like the new SS will be.

Thank you for your excellent comments and wonderfully helpful criticisms, with that kinda of elite deck analysis, I can't believe ICBM kicked you out!

[TK]

in game 2 when we were getting close to time yes i did have an erayo flipped and yes i did have 2 swords in play, but this took me like 10 turns to do. the swords were just sitting there for several turns until i finally drew my creature i needed. the game would have been over like 10 turns earlier if i could have drawn a bob or cutpurse. i wouldnt really say i got lucky except for the fact that i may have got lucky that george decided to let my erayo resolve when when i had already played 3 spells and still had 2 zero drops in hand. the erayo i flipped turn 2 was what won me the game. i believe george did have a force but decided not to use it for some reason.

[bertmathis]

in game 2 when we were getting close to time yes i did have an erayo flipped and yes i did have 2 swords in play, but this took me like 10 turns to do. the swords were just sitting there for several turns until i finally drew my creature i needed. the game would have been over like 10 turns earlier if i could have drawn a bob or cutpurse. i wouldnt really say i got lucky except for the fact that i may have got lucky that george decided to let my erayo resolve when when i had already played 3 spells and still had 2 zero drops in hand. the erayo i flipped turn 2 was what won me the game. i believe george did have a force but decided not to use it for some reason.

Okay, I suppose I was wrong, I thought you drew sword, sword, erayo right during the time extension. As for George's supposed misplay I promise this comes from our lack of testing against the SS. He and Brandon thought it would be a cakewalk to beat, I knew they were wrong, but I really wasn't expecting any of us to play against Mr. SS himself. Either way, great job, both this weekend and at Rochester.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

Honestly, we need a better secondary win condition than simply IGM beats, and I tend to like the reset win more than ToA if only for the fact that it is reset . As for Confidant, I just don't think he is good in a deck w. Colossus, that alone is too much of a liability, not to mention 4 FoW.

From playing a drain deck with Colossus and Bob in the past, I can honestly say that this doesn't really pose much of a problem.  One very rarely flips Colossus with Bob, and I've done so and still gone on to win the game regardless.  Having Colossus in the deck does not preclude the presence of Confident at all, IMO.  Im fact, it seems like an interesting idea, and the presence of more card advantage creatures that beat down good more easily enble an aggro/control sort of route that can combo off, similar to bomberman.  This might end up morphing into a different deck in that case, but it is certainly a possibilty.

As for the Izzet guildmages, have you ever found them conflicting with mana drain mana because of the double colour requirement?  It seems to me that the mage would be best when played early but unlike Bob for example difficult to play on turn 1.

On mana vault/lotus petal: it seems to me like this deck is very mana hungry but wants reusable mana to tap out every turn, not 1 shot mana (with the excepction of black lotus of course because it's simply ridiculous).  Also, this deck runs few mana sources as it is (only 23 in a control deck, where I've always run a minimum of 24, usually 25).  I tested it briefly in a few games and often found myself digging for cards hoping to find mana and missing early land drops.  I think that this would be even more of a problem against a non-control non-combo deck that disrupts one's mana base early on or even against a control deck if one cannot resolve card draw.  Maybe more mana sources should be added, or perhaps I'm just unlucky.

I love the intuition/ak draw engine, simply because of the sheer power affoarded by the raw number of cards, not to mention the great synergy with the rest of the deck.  That said, were 2 intuitions enough?  I always hate drawing an ak without an intuition, and might prefer 3, or even 4 (they are great even in multiples because one can use them to set up Will, as a tutor, or to pitch to fow, as well as fetching 3 aks).  This also brings up the possibility of recoup, which could allow for more time walk tricks, and recouping will, etc.

I really like Izzet Guildmage because I think that it's a cool card, and he certainly allows for some neat tricks, but that said, is the card really necessary for this deck to function?  It IS very mana intensive, and although I know drain decks develope mana, that is usually when one is either already in a winning position (against combo, workshop, or aggro/control), or one is in a control mirror.

In what mannar to you usually find yourself winning?  Reset seems like a neat trick, and can be assembled without casting Will unlike the Tendrils alternate win condition.  As for comments about it being clunky or janky, it doesn't seem to be any more usless than other win conditions when drawn early (tendrils/colossus), and at least it pitches to fow.  Fire/ice not only pitches to fow but cycles and provides good utility as removal as well, killing Bob, swarms, welders, etc.  I'd hardly call it a wasted slot simply because it CAN be used to go off with reset (it is certainly not necessary to the reset win, because one can go off with wishes or ancestral anyways).  That would be like saying the rack and ruin or ehoing truth is useless.

Cunning wishes: are these really necessary?  They are quite mana intensive and it seems like there are a great deal of tutorable maindeck answers anways.  Why not cut one or the other (the wishes or the enchoing truth/ fire/ice/ rack and ruin).  Also you seem to have devoted alot of sb slots to the wish board.  How good/useful was this?

Oh, and were leylines of the void good?

Could you tell us a bit more about some of the decks matchups, regarding what you believe to be favorable/unfavorable?

[M.Solymossy]

Alright, since everyone wants me to explain why I think/Know this deck is terrible, let me share.

Artifacts/Mana

3 Izzet Guildmage

This is the problem with the main.  You will have to spend UU/UR/RR to play the guildmage, and it's ability costs WAY too much.  If you play it early, you most likely lose drain mana to protect yourself from a threat.  If you play it too late, you may not get the broken plays that attracts you to the mage so far.  I don't see ever casting Izzet Guildmage as being efficient, but it's the whole part of your deck.
** In testing, I never liked spending the mana to cast him.  Unless I had an otherwise useless Ruby in play, I hated casting this card.

1 Reset
This card is completely random, and although a cute trick, it isn't really necissary.  You shouldn't be tapping out on your turn anyways because of the high number of instant speed cardboard in your deck. 
*** in my testing, although this card is good when cast, it really is never good sitting in your hand/tutoring it.  I always felt this card was TERRIBLE until I was setting up the win, which required another 1-of fire/ice anyways.  ***


I absolutely HATE your sideboard as well.

You only have 4 Leyline of the Void to address ALL your problems, other than the 1of plan and Cunning wish.  Leyline IS NOT an answer-all for the format, people.
1 Fling is the most situational card in the deck.  YOU NEED dsc gfor this to be useful.   I didn't even run this card with my Tog deck.
1 REB (+1 for day two):  Two rebs don't really help you at all. It should be 1 (Cwish) or 3.  This is especially true, considering your opponents will bring in 3 or 4 to handle you massive amount of blue cards.
1 Pyroblast: this card is correct.
1 Echoing Truth should probobly be Repeal, considering you can boost your mana and because E.Truth could easily be  shut off if your opponent draws and plays a second Meddling Mage. (the first one should never name this card, unless the situation is awkward)
1 Rack and Ruin:  why not a blue bounce spell... you don't seem to need ANY destruction to force through wins. 
1 Ebony Charm:  Unless I'm missing something, this seems like a useless spell.


the 1of sideboard really doesn't do anything usefull.. that's what I think.  I threw the deck on magic workstation and honestly, I couldn't get the thing to win games.  I was always outdone.

[bdg4life]

As for the Izzet guildmages, have you ever found them conflicting with mana drain mana because of the double colour requirement? It seems to me that the mage would be best when played early but unlike Bob for example difficult to play on turn 1.

At times this happened, it really depends on the matchup on how early I would put down the mage.

On mana vault/lotus petal: it seems to me like this deck is very mana hungry but wants reusable mana to tap out every turn, not 1 shot mana (with the excepction of black lotus of course because it's simply ridiculous). Also, this deck runs few mana sources as it is (only 23 in a control deck, where I've always run a minimum of 24, usually 25). I tested it briefly in a few games and often found myself digging for cards hoping to find mana and missing early land drops. I think that this would be even more of a problem against a non-control non-combo deck that disrupts one's mana base early on or even against a control deck if one cannot resolve card draw. Maybe more mana sources should be added, or perhaps I'm just unlucky.

Ive never been a huge fan of the lotus petal, and we chose not to run the vault beacuse most of the time it was a one shot use as well.

I love the intuition/ak draw engine, simply because of the sheer power affoarded by the raw number of cards, not to mention the great synergy with the rest of the deck. That said, were 2 intuitions enough? I always hate drawing an ak without an intuition, and might prefer 3, or even 4 (they are great even in multiples because one can use them to set up Will, as a tutor, or to pitch to fow, as well as fetching 3 aks). This also brings up the possibility of recoup, which could allow for more time walk tricks, and recouping will, etc.

We originaly had 3 intuitions in the deck but chose to drop 1 for merchant scroll, which could act as intuion #3, Ak 4 etc.
We also did try out recoup, but it made the deck feel like a retarded gifts deck.


In what mannar to you usually find yourself winning? Reset seems like a neat trick, and can be assembled without casting Will unlike the Tendrils alternate win condition. As for comments about it being clunky or janky, it doesn't seem to be any more usless than other win conditions when drawn early (tendrils/colossus), and at least it pitches to fow. Fire/ice not only pitches to fow but cycles and provides good utility as removal as well, killing Bob, swarms, welders, etc. I'd hardly call it a wasted slot simply because it CAN be used to go off with reset (it is certainly not necessary to the reset win, because one can go off with wishes or ancestral anyways). That would be like saying the rack and ruin or ehoing truth is useless.

We were able to win games either via colossus, reset, izzet beats.

Cunning wishes: are these really necessary? They are quite mana intensive and it seems like there are a great deal of tutorable maindeck answers anways. Why not cut one or the other (the wishes or the enchoing truth/ fire/ice/ rack and ruin). Also you seem to have devoted alot of sb slots to the wish board. How good/useful was this?

At first we ran 3 wishes but found them to be very clunky, 2 worked out right. I think another bounce spell is needed in the board, like 13nova suggested, repeal would be a hand utility card, and perhaps a reset in the board as suggested in a previous post.

Oh, and were leylines of the void good?

The leylines were ok but not spectacular for me Sunday, however in my meta I see lots of dragon and ichorid, and they always shine in those matchups. I expected to run into dragon and Ichorid in Charolette, especialy after dicemanx new dragon list and steve's articles on ichorid.

Could you tell us a bit more about some of the decks matchups, regarding what you believe to be favorable/unfavorable?

For me my most unfavorable matchup was against stax, every time I play against stax they seem to have the nuts, it was just me though, Brandon(day 1 2nd place) always seems to roll stax when he played against it. His hardest matchups were against fish, which I always seemed to do well against. Go figure 

[bdg4life]

in game 2 when we were getting close to time yes i did have an erayo flipped and yes i did have 2 swords in play, but this took me like 10 turns to do. the swords were just sitting there for several turns until i finally drew my creature i needed. the game would have been over like 10 turns earlier if i could have drawn a bob or cutpurse. i wouldnt really say i got lucky except for the fact that i may have got lucky that george decided to let my erayo resolve when when i had already played 3 spells and still had 2 zero drops in hand. the erayo i flipped turn 2 was what won me the game. i believe george did have a force but decided not to use it for some reason.

I have no idea why I didnt force, believe me I was kicking myself during that game for not trying to force it. In all honesty I should have scooped earlier before you got your creature down, and tried to win in game 3, but since you werent finding any creatures I was hoping to go to turns and draw(and just in case any one asks, no I did not slow play, in fact i had no plays,and passed as fast as tommy did). What really hurt is when i fetched and had no lands to get.

[bdg4life]

3 Izzet Guildmage

This is the problem with the main.  You will have to spend UU/UR/RR to play the guildmage, and it's ability costs WAY too much.  If you play it early, you most likely lose drain mana to protect yourself from a threat.  If you play it too late, you may not get the broken plays that attracts you to the mage so far.  I don't see ever casting Izzet Guildmage as being efficient, but it's the whole part of your deck.
** In testing, I never liked spending the mana to cast him.  Unless I had an otherwise useless Ruby in play, I hated casting this card.

To each his own, we wanted to make a deck that abuses this guy, if its not your playstyle, thats cool, no one is forcing you to.

1 Reset
This card is completely random, and although a cute trick, it isn't really necissary.  You shouldn't be tapping out on your turn anyways because of the high number of instant speed cardboard in your deck. 
*** in my testing, although this card is good when cast, it really is never good sitting in your hand/tutoring it.  I always felt this card was TERRIBLE until I was setting up the win, which required another 1-of fire/ice anyways.  ***

Reset can only be played on your opponents turn after his upkeep is over.

I absolutely HATE your sideboard as well.

You only have 4 Leyline of the Void to address ALL your problems, other than the 1of plan and Cunning wish.  Leyline IS NOT an answer-all for the format, people.
1 Fling is the most situational card in the deck.  YOU NEED dsc gfor this to be useful.   I didn't even run this card with my Tog deck.
1 REB (+1 for day two):  Two rebs don't really help you at all. It should be 1 (Cwish) or 3.  This is especially true, considering your opponents will bring in 3 or 4 to handle you massive amount of blue cards.
1 Pyroblast: this card is correct.
1 Echoing Truth should probobly be Repeal, considering you can boost your mana and because E.Truth could easily be  shut off if your opponent draws and plays a second Meddling Mage. (the first one should never name this card, unless the situation is awkward)
1 Rack and Ruin:  why not a blue bounce spell... you don't seem to need ANY destruction to force through wins. 
1 Ebony Charm:  Unless I'm missing something, this seems like a useless spell.

We cut fling from day 1 and added another REB, which in addition to pyroblast=3. The ebony charm acts as spot graveyard removal and a kill condition with the reset if we have no red available. Also if the charm is copied with the mage  we can remove 6 cards from his grave yard. Which can be crippling to some decks in this format. This is why it won out over coffin purge.
Adding the repeal is a good suggestion, and the rack and ruin could indeed be switched for another bounce spell, it was primarily there for the stax matchup. We also run hurklys and rebuild for our artifact bounce.

[Neonico]

Your average mana cost, with colossus  and 4 FoW should be around 1.62 from my calculations. Still ok for a confidant deck if you back it up with IGM + Confidant beats.
If i really love the idea of an High Tide kill in vintage (Man i so much wanna play high tide in vintage) but i think that ToA could be a really cool victory condition and can allows to decrease average mana cost to a gonfidant gift deck (1.46 actually)

that said, this deck strategy, from my point of view, remains close of a bomberman kill and i think that you should try to abuse IGM + walk synergy and having 4-6 power attacks every turn and kill that way (secondary win condition) and a ToA kill as a primary kill condition (well, im not sure of the order but you get the point)

At least, its the direction ill bring this deck and try to tune the list.

[M.Solymossy]

Reset can only be played on your opponents turn after his upkeep is over.

Yes this I realize, but it seems that to really be effective, you either need to tap out durring your turn (and untap durring theirs), float mana, or go to their dome on their turn.

[LotusHead]

Alright, since everyone wants me to explain why I think/Know this deck is terrible, let me share.
...
3 Izzet Guildmage

1 Reset
This card is completely random, and although a cute trick, it isn't really necissary.  You shouldn't be tapping out on your turn anyways because of the high number of instant speed cardboard in your deck. 
*** in my testing, although this card is good when cast, it really is never good sitting in your hand/tutoring it.  I always felt this card was TERRIBLE until I was setting up the win, which required another 1-of fire/ice anyways.  ***

If Izzet Guildmage is on the field, and you try to combo off (as opposed to riding Tinker for Colossus for the win), then you don't need Fire/Ice in hand to combo off.  A brainstorm or AK will do.

Float 5 mana (4 need to be from lands), Reset=>Copy Reset=> go broken with 80000 blue mana. Cast Brainstorm=>Copy Brainstorm=> Go broken draw dec (a good chuck)  Wish for Fire/Ice or Ebony Charm. Pwn Opponent.

[Eddie]

This deck isn't as bad as some here try to make you believe. I do question the reset. I never used it in my 10+ games I played. The rest is pretty sharp. Intuition-AK fits right in. I did remove a needle for a petal though. I feel 23 sources is not enough, and I just love the petal.

The deck can be compared to a control deck with confidants instead of Izzets. Drop a confidant/izzet and use the card advantage it gives to keep it on the board and kill your opponent. You can do some pretty broken stuff with the izzet, but that's rather win more. Copying a counter or an AK is more than enough to get ahead.

[Mr. Sligh]

Hi all, I'm an italian (bad  :lol:) player and some days ago i have seen this post... I appreciate this deck and his particular combo (I never see it in Italy yet) so i have decided to test it. I have tuned the list basing on this one list but using also the list of one of the most famous italian player, Lorenzo Fedeli (he build a particular list of t1t called "t1t speedy", that you can find here, which abuse of a powerful card not very played in the past in Italy, Merchant Scroll, to tutoring the most powerful card of Vintage, like Ancestral and Intution or Ak)
Linking the two philosophy of these deck i have developed this list:

3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Library of Alexandria
5 Moxes
1 Black lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Lotus Petal

3 Izzet Guildmage
1 Darksteel Colossus

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
2 Intuition
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Reset
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Chain of Vapor
 
3 Merchant Scroll
1 Tinker
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will

SIDEBOARD
2 Pithing Needle
1 Brain Freeze
1 Rebuild
1 Rushing River
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Darkblast
1 Coffin Purge
1 Ebony Charm
1 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Shattering Pulse
1 Rack and Ruin

I prefer to play Mana Vault and Lotus Petal in order to abuse of Tolarian Academy (one of the most tutorated cards with demonic tutor) so i put the needles in side. This deck is based on the IGM ability but also had a secondary plan game: Yawgmoth's Will --> Brain Freeze. I play 3 cunning wish and io fact the sideboard is designed in their function: i could use it to take ebony charm or fire//ice and win with IGM or i could take Brain Freeze after 15/16 spells (that i can easily do with chain of vapor). Merchant Scroll have so the precise aim to allow me to tutoring waht i need: Cunning Wish to win with Reset and one of the istant like Ancestral Ebony Charm or Fire//Ice; Mystical Tutor to take Yawgmoth's Will and storm with Brain Freeze.
Well... I think that's all


I'm glad to answer to all your questions
Bye bye (oh and excuse for my bad english)  :lol: