"Grim Force" Play Situation

[Komatteru]

Suck it!

[rureddy31]

Here's my play:

Play Undergound Sea, tap for black. Cast Dark Ritual. Use 2 black to play Demonic Tutor for Black Louts. Play Lotus. If all these spells have resolved, sac lotus for BLUE. Cast Brainstorm. Depnding on the brainstorm, you can either win that turn, or cast Grim Tutor off Cabal Ritual, leaving you to refuel as necessary. Thats certainly the most explosive play. And Round 1, Game 1, thats the way I would want to play it. Nothing puts an opponent on tilt like turn 1, on the play, Win. And, this hand beats Force of Will. If they force your lotus (or Demonic or Ritual), you come back with your own force, and set up a safe turn 2 win.

[Polynomial P]

If you are on the draw, I would mulligan this hand. Too many things can go wrong. If they have a wasteland or play chalice at 1, you are not likely to win. Against a drain deck, I dont think you can do anything too relevant till your second turn, so if they have both force and drain, you lose. This hand loses to too many things to play it on the draw.

If you are on the play, I would go Land, rit, grim tutor--> Lotus, play lotus. Pass the turn. Second turn: Sac lotus, Cabal rit, DT for necro and play necro with force backup. Win turn 3.

This play is a little slow, but with this plan you lose to very little on your opponent's one turn of importantce. Wasteland is bad, but you have a lot of mana sources in your deck that will still allow you to make your play. Chalice for 1 is not a problem at this point either. You will most likely resolve your one threat of importance before your opponent can play drain. If they have double force, double blue card, yeah...you lose, but the chances of that are not good. And you have force backup for all your important decisions in the first 2 turns.

[M.Solymossy]

I didn't DARE you... I just was whitewater rafting  JD!


Anyways... There are some other things you will need to consider.  Do you even keep this hand?   On the play, I think it is keepable, but casting tutor for lotus and using it for brainstorm is risky, because if your brainstorm sucks, then you're screwed if they waste your underground sea.     Casting two tutors and not having the gas you need to win is very risky.  You also chance that your second turn win is met with a blue card that you cannot respond to, if your brainstorm doesn't hit another blue card.

On the draw, you risk Chalices more  than anything.  I'm always so annoyed when my opponent drops a chalice at zero, i counter, and they drop a chalice at zero.   Granted, with this hand, I wouldn't counter a chalice at zero.  You still risk that  your opponent, since he's playing an unknown deck, will lock you out of the game before your risky hand has gas.

My real dilema is weather this hand is keepable.  On the play I think it is, on the draw, I don't know about it.

[Liam-K]

I would probably open with Sea, Brainstorm.  Which I imagine is exactly your point, because now you probably don't have a blue card and your FoW is shit.

edit: this post assumes too much.  Content added.

Tutoring for gas with BB available and 1 reusable source is a terrible play, so you do nothing with the cards that are in your hand.  Not casting brainstorm is therefor an error because topdeck mode is worse than brainstorming.  Realistically, you are looking for another mana source + a blue card, intending to resolve necro with force backup turn 2 and win on turn 3.  Obviously if you hit gas you may change your intended path, especially if you don't find the blue card for force and need to bait.

Here's my play:

Play Undergound Sea, tap for black. Cast Dark Ritual. Use 2 black to play Demonic Tutor for Black Louts. Play Lotus. If all these spells have resolved, sac lotus for BLUE. Cast Brainstorm. Depnding on the brainstorm, you can either win that turn, or cast Grim Tutor off Cabal Ritual, leaving you to refuel as necessary. Thats certainly the most explosive play. And Round 1, Game 1, thats the way I would want to play it. Nothing puts an opponent on tilt like turn 1, on the play, Win. And, this hand beats Force of Will. If they force your lotus (or Demonic or Ritual), you come back with your own force, and set up a safe turn 2 win.

Let's look at where this play gets you if you have to pass the turn

board: underground sea
hand: (any card no lotus or DT), (Force of Will or random card), 2x random card
pool: empty
storm: 0

That's ugly.

[Moxlotus]

First, this hand is essentially a 5 card hand.  FoW is shit right there since you need brainstorm and Grim Tutor is redundancy you don't need because you don't have the mana (one reason I never want 4 Grims in a deck, I never want to see 2 of them in my opener). 

On the draw, this hand is begging to lose to cards.  Any card.  In addition it is a possible Brainstorm, lose.  Mull that shit all day.

On the play, it is more interesting.  I'd still debate on keeping it.  In the end, I probably would while kicking myself.  Turn 1 Brainstorm.  Hope you don't draw shit.  Pray to hit another good source of mana (11 more lands, 4 artifacts that produce blue and/or black).  Or just be the absolute champion and hit the lotus+blue card and proceed to stand on your chair.

[BreathWeapon]

This is a much more conservative approach to this hand on the play,

Turn 1, Underground Sea, Dark Ritual, Grim Tutor -> Black Lotus, Black Lotus and Pass.
Turn 2, Sacrifice Black Lotus for B, Cabal Ritual, Demonic Tutor->Necropotence, Necropotence all with Force of Will back up and an unkown card in hand for the turn 3 win.The only card you have to worry about is Wasteland with that line of play, and who plays with lands that don't tap for blue

Edit: Hands like this are the reason I play 4 Grim Tutor.

[TheAlpha]

I would strongly consider a mulligan since right now, you're only able to cast something with the Ritual. If you don't draw some kind of mana source this hand will make you lose.

Considering the fact that you keep this hand, the only proper play seems to be the Brainstorm.
-If you're playing against a FoW and/or Drainsbased deck you can ritual out a tutor. If it resolves you're in for some business (get lotus pass, BBBB cabal for BBBBB, tutor Necro with FoW backup. If your Lotus doesn't resolve, you must brainstorm during your 2nd turn in order to get 2 mana if you don't draw a mana source. If this happens, your opponent will get UU up and the FoW because less powerful since you must draw a blue card out of the brainstorm or your topdecks. The more mana you get in this scenario, the more options you have. If the first ritual doesn't work out properly you lose a lot of tempo depending on your topdecks.

If you're playing against Stax you can't lotus>cabal out the Necro if they manage to draw one of the five strip effects or a cost increaser so digging for mana sources also seems like the only good option to me.

There a just so many scenarios in which you will lose if you don't get more mana, the brainstorm (or a mulligan) would be my play.

[BreathWeapon]

I don't think Wasteland is enough of an argument to discard this hand, the opponent is going to only have 5 possible ways to destroy your land, not counting all of those people who think its trendy to only play 3 or 2 Wasteland. You get one unkown card in your hand if you try and go off on turn three with protected Necro, so that gives you 20 cards you could have top decked in order to still go off. I'll take those odds.

[Liam-K]

Yeah breathweapon's play is looking the best right now.  I hadn't thought of playing it that way, which is silly since my end goal was necro as well.

[ErkBek]

I'd consider this a pretty straight-forward hand. I'd prob keep on the play or draw and here's what I'd do:

Turn 1
Land, Rit -> Grim for Lotus

Turn 2 Hand = Lotus, Cabal Rit, DT, FoW, BS, + ?????
Lotus -> Cabal Rit (BBBB in pool) -> DT for Will (BB in pool) -> Tap land and play will

If they FoW then you FoW back upping storm count to 6, otherwise if they don't counter will, then it is safe to assume they've got nothing.

0 Mana in Pool and Storm = 4

Lotus (BBB) -> Cabal (BBBB) -> Dark Rit (BBBBBB) -> DT for LED -> play  and break for (7B in pool) -> Grim for Tendrils

Storm = 10 and exactly enough mana in pool, GG.

@ rureddy: I think you are trying to push this deck a little too hard. I'd say a turn 2 kill with FoW backup is often time better than a turn 1 without. Your also looking to fizzle a hand that's really solid.

[BreathWeapon]

Kobe's hand looks solid for being a turn 2 win with Force of Will back up, my only complaint is that it loses to some combination of Chalice of the Void at 0 and either Force of Will, Mana Leak or Duress to back it up if you don't play Black Lotus the turn you tutor for it. One of those three lines of play is common out of Oath or Fish, and going for Necropotence allows you to play through Chalice of the Void 0. You can also replace Chalice of the Void with/in addition to Tormod's Crypt for Oath and Slaver.

On the play, with out any knowledge of my opponent's deck, I would go for Necropotence. If I knew my opponent wasn't playing Chalice of the Void or Tormod's Crypt I would go for Yawgmoth's Will.

It should also be mentioned I think this hand puts you into top deck against Gifts, given: 7 pitch spells, 4 Merchant Scroll, 4 Brainstorm, 1 Ancestral Recall, 1 Black Louts, 1 Lotus Petal, Mox Sapphire and 4 Mana Drain there is a strong likely hood of him having two counter spells in hand sending both decks into draw go with the advantage to Gifts.

[Mr. Type 4]

You guys have to stop being so worried about people playing Chalices and stuff to play a deck like this effectively.  Mulliganing away a hand as good as this one is pretty stupid if you don't know what your opponent is playing, and you got Force of Will online, so what's with all the fear?  You got to have some balls to play Storm Combo.  Mulliganing here is highly likely to yield a weaker hand, or worse, one that's completely unplayable so you end up mulliganing again.

[BreathWeapon]

How is not losing to Chalice of the Void and winning on turn three, when you are on the play, not effective? There's a difference between having balls and taking needless risks just so you can go off one turn faster, which is irrelevant because I have a fist full of cards in my hand.

Care to explain that line of thought?

[cssamerican]

I agree with kobefan's line of play and Mr. Type 4's logic. If your playing a pure combo deck against an unknown opponent, goldfish it until they prove they can stop you. For all you know they are playing Grim Long or some other combo deck, and a turn 3 win could be to slow. I guess my feeling is, if it is in your nature to always go for the safe and slower play in an unknown situation, then perhaps you would be better served by playing a Drain based deck rather than a Dark Ritual based combo deck.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

I'd consider this a pretty straight-forward hand. I'd prob keep on the play or draw and here's what I'd do:

Turn 1
Land, Rit -> Grim for Lotus

Turn 2 Hand = Lotus, Cabal Rit, DT, FoW, BS, + ?????
Lotus -> Cabal Rit (BBBB in pool) -> DT for Will (BB in pool) -> Tap land and play will

If they FoW then you FoW back upping storm count to 6, otherwise if they don't counter will, then it is safe to assume they've got nothing.

0 Mana in Pool and Storm = 4

Lotus (BBB) -> Cabal (BBBB) -> Dark Rit (BBBBBB) -> DT for LED -> play  and break for (7B in pool) -> Grim for Tendrils

Storm = 10 and exactly enough mana in pool, GG.

@ rureddy: I think you are trying to push this deck a little too hard. I'd say a turn 2 kill with FoW backup is often time better than a turn 1 without. Your also looking to fizzle a hand that's really solid.

This seems like a good plan, but it's important to realize that because of the need to crack LED to play the tendrils, you don't have the FOW on line if they stifle it or misdirect or fow one of your copies (most opponent's would probably fow the Will, but if they realize that in order to get storm to go off you will need to DT->LED, they might wait and fow one of the tendrils copies, leaving them at 1 life and you with your win condition removed from the game.  If they have misd or stifle then they can't use it until you play the tendrils anyways so they are sure to use it at that time (of course for stifle they need U open).)

The other problem is them simply wasting your land if they are playing a workshop or aggro control deck, which depending on what you top deck could leave you in trouble (although you still have a good shot, of course).

That said, it's rather unlikely that you will lose with this line of play, and I think that with a turn 2 kill with fow back up for the Will, it's reasonably safe to go for, depending on what your opponent does on their turn.  If they have UU up for instance it is possible for them to have drain+fow if they are playing a control deck)  So, I'd probably go for it.

[BreathWeapon]

I agree with kobefan's line of play and Mr. Type 4's logic. If your playing a pure combo deck against an unknown opponent, goldfish it until they prove they can stop you. For all you know they are playing Grim Long or some other combo deck, and a turn 3 win could be to slow. I guess my feeling is, if it is in your nature to always go for the safe and slower play in an unknown situation, then perhaps you would be better served by playing a Drain based deck rather than a Dark Ritual based combo deck.

How is a turn 3 win going to be too slow when you have around 15 cards in your hand after Necropotence? Grim Long is all of a sudden going to go off through a hand with one guaranteed Force of Will and quite likely another? After you resolve Necropotence the game is already won, the next turn is more or less irrelevant in my eyes. *shrug*

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

I agree with kobefan's line of play and Mr. Type 4's logic. If your playing a pure combo deck against an unknown opponent, goldfish it until they prove they can stop you. For all you know they are playing Grim Long or some other combo deck, and a turn 3 win could be to slow. I guess my feeling is, if it is in your nature to always go for the safe and slower play in an unknown situation, then perhaps you would be better served by playing a Drain based deck rather than a Dark Ritual based combo deck.

How is a turn 3 win going to be too slow when you have around 15 cards in your hand after Necropotence? Grim Long is all of a sudden going to go off through a hand with one guaranteed Force of Will and quite likely another? After you resolve Necropotence the game is already won, the next turn is more or less irrelevant in my eyes. *shrug*

I'd rather win now than win later, and depending on how many cards you take your opponent will probably need very little storm to kill you if they are playing tendrils combo.  Also, depending on what your opponent is playing it can be difficult to construct the perfect necro hand that will result in victory.  Remember that you have to take into account your opponent's plays and every additional turn you give them is bad.