Chalice/Sui

[MonoE]

And is Ankh of Mishra worth SBing, or is even the 5 damage it provides against fetches negligible in this super-fast environment, and it should rather be something with an immediate impact on the game (Null Rod, Wasteland, etc.).

As for Aether Vial, here are the rationalizations I have so far:

(1) It hurts Chalice at 1.
(2) It helps Chalice at 2.
(3) If I run it I should up the Fiends to 4.
(4) If I run it I could replace a few Swamps (up to 2, maybe) but this makes them dangerously low, and I might have to rethink Hymn and Sinkhole at that point.
(5) I have never played them in Vintage. Without real answers to Null Rod and Pithing Needle except pre-Chalicing to 2 or 1 respectively, how well could this deck utilize them? It seems to me that Vial Fish works because it has a ridiculously dense chunk of utility, which my deck has none of. Rod or Needle kill me.
(6) I wouldn't use more than 2, because I would still want to be able to side into Null Rod.
(7) It might be worth looking into Skittering Skirge.
(8) It might be worth looking into SB Nether Void (not simply becoming Void).
(9) It might be worth making my creatures actually have some semblance of a curve (trying out 4x 1cc creature, adding the fourth Hyppie)-- but what the hell could it be? Sarcomancy, the best 1cc 'creature' for black, isn't a creature! Carnophage sucks. Martyr of Bones < Wretch).
(10) This might just make my deck Fish, in which case of course this is worse than U/W. Unless I want to invent worse-than-worse-than-Fish, maybe I shouldn't run Vial.
(11) It's not like my creatures are hard to cast anyway.
(12) They're pretty even as far as threats go, and all my other cards are threats too. The most counter-heavy decks in Vintage run 12 counters. My 4 Duress, 2 Fiend account for 6. So I'm dealing with an opposing deck with 6 counters. Playing Vial (if I get it active, etc.) will just make my disruption more vulnerable to countering, which isn't good (especially for Chalice, which is important to get down for at least zero or one in the first three turns). What I'm saying is, this deck has already been built around playing all its threats as opposed to sneaking them into play. Vial helps U/W because it has a much higher density of come-into-play abilities and special abilities that are really important to resolve/sneak in-- with 4 Confidant and 4 Negator, I just beat down more.

Eric

[Illissius]

One card I've been looking at is Pox. It kills DSC, and isn't entirely crap if you draw it without a DSC in play. Unfortunately, it also kills your dudes, so you have to either suck it up, play around it, or design the deck around it.

[wethepeople]

i am glad you are maindecking four wretches, such a powerful card, especially in mono black. i suggest running some jittes (not gonna bother spelling out the whole name), they are great for doing just about anything. life gain messes up ToA kill decks, the creature removal messes up Welder as well as fish, and the pump up just provides you with a faster kill, as well as defense. i put this deck on MWS and i have played it a bit (hope you dont mind), it seems to do well in almost all situations except it gets owned by Grim Long (as do all decks that dont run Stifle and counter backup), maybe Jitte can provide you with that life gain that just may prevent them from finishing you off. but hey, you dont have to listen to me.

[MonoE]

Edict is strictly better as a reactive answer to DSC. It costs less, costs less specific mana, is an instant, doesn't harm my hand, land, or creatures As I understand it Pox works best when the deck revolves around maximizing its non-symmetry.

As far as a general-usefulness card, I think it's not good in this deck. It causes life-loss, kills land, it forces discard, and it kills creatures. (a) Life-loss is fine. (b) I run fewer Moxen than my opponent, so its LD aspect will likely hurt me more than my opponent. Add to this the fact that I'm already running 9 land destruction effects, and it's almost certain to be unfavorable. (c) I run many more creatures than my opponent, so it will hurt there, too. And (d) the discard effect may affect us about even. Decks that can outdraw me (remember, Brainstorm is just a very good cantrip, no actual CA) tend to be combo decks, and these play out their hands (Moxen, ritual mana) quickly.

It just seems like it does too many things, and not enough favorable ones for me, to be the well-calibrated slice of disruption this deck survives on. It's random. Can I also point out that for BBB I could be getting Necropotence, which this deck can't at the moment even find room for? And that the most reliable way to get BBB is first turn Ritual, but Poxing then is a terrible move both on the play and on the draw, and there is always a better way to use BBB in such a situation?

Thanks for bringing it up, though, I love old Pox. It's such an interesting study in how sometimes doing more than one thing really restricts a card's deckbuilding possibilities. This card does so many things, so many important things, that it really needs to be the prom queen or it's just going to be random.

Eric

[MonoE]

@wethepeople

Yeah, it's getting creature-heavy enough that Jitte looks good. I don't feel comfortable cutting creatures for it, because then its actual relevance goes down (nothing sucks like drawing a hand of 1 Mesmeric Fiend, 1 Jitte, and getting the Fiend countered/dealt with); whereas cutting disruption is just not the right move, I think. In short, the question is space. Although I am could see the argument for Jitte over Masticore in the side. Any thoughts on that switch? Mine:

(1) They suffer the same antisynergy with Null Rod out of the board
(2) Essentially Jitte pings for two a turn, if needed, and doesn't tie up mana doing it.
(3) Jitte is dependent on my having a creature capable of dealing some combat damage and surviving-- against creature decks (where I'd side this in) that's really only Negator and Hyppie once my opponent has a 2/x out. Against 1/x's Wretch is also good enough. Or if I can play Jitte very early and disrupt my opponent for a turn, I can get a clear swing in with anything, and it's off we go.
(4) Costs no more than Masticore even counting equip (but can come out a full two turns earlier [unaccel.] to be equipped the next turn)
(5) Offers lifegain to screw storm combo or offset late-game Confidant draws.
(6) Doesn't force discard.

Biggest cons/offsets to the aforementioned:
(1) It doesn't regenerate.
(2) Sure, Masti makes me discard, but this deck loves getting rid of Chaliced cards. Against creature-based decks where Chalicing for one might be a great play, it's part of the reason to side in Masticores and Contagions. Use those topdecked Duresses and Rituals after all!
(3) Its two abilities may look pretty equivalent to Masti's pinging plus his 4 power, but (a) Masti swings every turn, AND pings, whereas with Jitte you sort of have to choose between the 'four power' option and the 'ping twice' option; (b) His pinging comes online right away (granted, with six-mana potential on board, but it's a slight edge); (c) His blocking comes online right away, whereas with Jitte the creature has to have already survived a combat to simulate a 4/4 blocker.
(4) It costs 2. Please God, please no more two-cc stuff. My cup runneth over.
(5) Jitte doesn't provide a colorless damage source to the head, only to creatures. If I do indeed cut Dystopia, Jitte over Masticore makes Cop:Black or Storycircle gg.
(6) Null Rod completely negates Jitte. Masticore just becomes an overcosted 4/4 beater.

____________

I'm glad you're trying it out. I encourage everyone who has the time and interest to try it out, tweak it to your liking, give feedback here on this thread!

Wethepeople, have you subbed in Jitte for something? If so, for what, and were you happy with the switch(es)?

Glad to hear it's done well, generally. Are you playing sideboarded games, too? The sideboard is pretty important here, I think. On that note, I'll present the SB with 4 Leyline instead of Purges/P. Void:

//Sideboard (15)
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Contagion
2 Masticore (Jitte?)
2 Null Rod
1 Demonic Tutor

No more Dystopia. The Oath matchup sucked anyway (and Dystopia wasn't awesome in it, anyway), and my plan against jank is now:

+2 Masticore
+3 Contagion
+3 Diabolic Edict
+1 Demonic Tutor

-4 Negator
-4 Chalice of the Void (unless it's running a plethora of 1cc or 3cc buggers)
-1 least useful 4-of-- or against monocolored jank, a Wasteland.

My GrimLong plan is:

+4 Leyline
+2 Null Rod
+3 Edict

-4 Sinkhole (they run few lands anyway, Wasteland kills them all, I can't afford BB for a somewhat irrelevant play in this matchup)
-3 Hyppie (too slow: irrelevant)
-2 Negator (4-turn clock is laughable; this matchup is all about disruption fast and often)

Chalice at zero is the most important play of the game. On the play, you've got to try to mulligan down to Chalice or Consultation. And don't keep a hand on the draw unless you've got acceleration or Chalice, although it's a lot worse on the draw.

As you said, the matchup's tough for any deck not packing reactive answers to key spells/ Tendrils FTW. But I am interested in playing some more matches to find out what this deck's best strategy is, or how to tweak it to deal.

You recommend Jitte against Tendrils. I don't think it works against Grim Long, Grim comboes out too soon, there's no way you'd cast a creature, cast Jitte, equip, and swing if that was your plan (and that's at least six mana's worth of plan, so how soon is that going to happen? Turn three at best (discounting Sol Ring)). Against control decks packing Tendrils, maybe.

I'm interested to hear more about your experience with the deck, and any more suggestions you may have based on that experience. Which matchups did you test against? Any cool tricks or tips to pass on?

____________

I'm gladdened by all the responses, criticisms, suggestions. Keep them coming if you've got them. I feel the deck has made significant progress since my initial post, and look forward to whatever new ideas or tweaks (if we're at the tweaking stage) we can come up with.

Eric

PS Does the deck deserve a name? It's no Tier 1 mainstay or anything but I think it's safe to say it's better than most of the mono-b jank you see getting 69th at these tourneys.

[Illissius]

Edict is strictly better as a reactive answer to DSC. It costs less, costs less specific mana, is an instant, doesn't harm my hand, land, or creatures As I understand it Pox works best when the deck revolves around maximizing its non-symmetry.

As far as a general-usefulness card, I think it's not good in this deck.

...

Thanks for bringing it up, though, I love old Pox. It's such an interesting study in how sometimes doing more than one thing really restricts a card's deckbuilding possibilities. This card does so many things, so many important things, that it really needs to be the prom queen or it's just going to be random.

Yeah, I didn't necessarily mean it's an ideal choice for this deck, though it's not out of the question. The most common reason I see mentioned for Suicide-esque decks not being viable, though, is an inability to deal with DSC; so a card which can be pretty powerful on its own and deals with DSC has potential.

[zeus-online]

Workshop decks and some Control decks have used Razormane masticore before, have you tried this new thing over good ol' masti?

Also, how many games do you loose to random tinker? Looks like the biggest issue with the deck.

Another thing is necropotence...it belongs in just about any deck with dark rituals. There must be a way of running it?

/Zeus

[wethepeople]

i havent figured out what exactly is best to remove for Jitte, it probably will be masticore. I think this deck might need a couple more creatures, because Jitte is nothing without anything to beat down with. This may sound stupid, but i have always loved the black creatures from Stronghold with Shadow, when i used to play Fish i used a few of them with Jitte and it worked great. i cant figure out what exactly to use but i am going to test with more creatures, but my question is what should be cut?

i have done well versus most matchups because of the intense hand disruption, but the only think i dont like is the lack of counter control. i have played blue for a while now so its probably just me, but besides that i love Suicide Black, it was my first deck i ever played (with Giant Cockroaches, Dark Banishing, Terror, and as always, Dark Ritual.)

/-wtp

[MonoE]

this new thing

I had not yet considered Razormane. I think his casting cost is prohibitively high. He doesn't regenerate. And it's not that big a deal that he goes to the head, because I side in Masticores usually against creatures, so his mission is to take them out. He also doesn't chump block something huge (well, no one can chump DSC, really, but Masti can take 4 dmg. out of his punch for 2 colorless). Workshop can barf out mana like anything, I can't, it's not in gameplan; conversely, control can control the game until 5 mana and counter backup present themselves. I can't do that either.

*

Oh, restricted Necropotence, you're just so random now. No way I can count on you in my opening hand, but no way I can count on not drawing you when I have out a Bob.

*

This deck doesn't lose to random Tinker as easily as it may look. It's hard to gauge how effective proactive disruption is, whereas with counter you see it right in front of you-- wow, he FoWed my important spell. But against the matchups where Tinker mana can go up turn one, I am mulliganing for Chalice, Consultation (Chalice), Duress, or Ritual/Fiend. Barring Tinker + gas in the opening hand on the draw, the deck has a good chance to never see Tinker resolve. For those extra-long games where it's just impossible to keep my opponent off 2U, I have the possibility of Chalicing for 3. If it comes to that.

As with most monoblack lists of the past, its combo game, both pre- and post-board, is pretty dependent on the die roll. Even more so nowadays, as combo has sped up considerably (however, if you do survive past turn 1, a well-aimed Duress or a lucky Hymn or two practically seal victory).

*

the black creatures from Stronghold with Shadow

I assume you're talking about the Dauthi. They're actually in Tempest, not Stronghold. The basic problem with the Dauthi creatures isn't really Shadow (although that is a problem, as it's meaningless in every matchup except aggro, where it hurts you unless you have out a Jitte). The basic problem isn't Shadow, it's that they're just not great creatures. BB for 2/2? Wretch gives you that, plus a game-changing instant-speed cheap ability. Confidant swaps one toughness for his ridiculousness. 1B for 2/1? No real ability except un-Swordsable. Confidant is again better. Fiend is better, as it swaps one power for Duress (I'll take one less damage point per attack for a Duress effect any day). It's not worth bastardizing the creature base to support Jitte. The better plan, if you want to smoosh Jitte in, is just to run more creatures. Viable, because almost all of the creatures pack some sort of disruption, so it won't be changing your disruption base if you do it right, it will just be making that disruption base more susceptible to creature control strategies, which don't exist in large numbers in Vintage anyway.

The third and fourth Fiends rather than Hyppies and perhaps some Chains out of the board would help the Grim matchup, although it's never going to be a particularly good one. But that would hurt lots of other matchups, where getting an 'active' (so to speak) Hyppie is devastating, and possible now with 6 Duress effects, 9 LD effects, and 4 Hymn that sort of skirt the line between the two.

*

My biggest bone with the deck now is just that 2cc spot. It's got eighteen cards there if you don't count Chalice-for-ones. That's a lot, and maybe it would be worth switching at least two of those cards for 1cc cards, to shore up the opening hand. That would still leave the deck in way better shape after a Chalice at one than most any deck. So, Sinkhole only works if you pack 4. If I take out 2 Hymn, I could go 2 Therapy. Less card advantage, more seeing my opponent's hand and putting irrelevant creatures to use (good for game-1 Wretches against a deck that ignores the yard). Less specific-mana intensive, too, which is great.

Or I could fit Aether Vial into the manabase, which can essentially drop my 2cc creatures out of the mana picture.

Neither of these options particularly appeal to me. Black just doesn't have that many quality one-drop disruption spells, and even fewer creatures.

The other option is to add more acceleration. Not sure how I would do this without hurting Chalice for zero or Null Rod. Mana Vault makes too much colorless; Mana Crypt is better, but works against Chalice and only helps cast 8 cards in the maindeck (Negator, Chalice), plus it deals me damage. Cabal Ritual is decent, kind of a Lotus Petal that requires 1B to function (and as a side-effect it turns one colorless into , which is good considering the problem cards in question mostly cost ), but to maximize it I would need to change the deck to put more cards in the yard. This is especially unuseful post-board if I bring in Leylines.

Of course, I've been playing without power at home. Lotus + Jet bring this closer to the level it needs to be at to have a prayer against the fastest of the fast.

Eric

[MonoE]

Some more thoughts and ideas, after playtesting and goldfishing some more.

(1) Holy croikee is Belcher a favorable matchup! They run so few land. Chalice is MVP, Wretch for their Welder, Null Rud out of the board!

(2) I played a Beacon/Doomsday combo deck, too. Owned that. Chalice at one prevents the stacked Ancestral from plowing through to Mind's Desire, Lotus, and Beacon; whereas Chalice for 0 coupled with LD can prevent Desire from resolving (they count on Lotus). This is kind of just jank combo, but it's nice to know that Chalice's all-around utility means something.

(3) I'm no longer that worried about the deck's ability to unload effectively. Lotus + Jet help, no issues with Chalice ordinarily, just good old-fashioned accelerando. While it's true that the deck packs too many cards in the 2cc slot, it makes up for this by Chalicing for 0 and then 1 (and winning out big-time on those plays), and honestly the cards in these slots are the heart of the deck, and it's not worth changing them to something less useful just to make the curve a bit better. If I were to replace 2cc cards, it would only be with 1cc cards, in which case I'm hurting myself on Chalice more. The only tenable switch in this regard is Therapy for Hymn or Therapy for Sinkhole (I also considered Pithing Needle for Sinkhole, which would take the deck in a new direction (more utility) but make it more vulnerable to artifact hate that Vintage is simply packed with, and, again, more vulnerable to my own Chalice). I also noticed that my previous worries were based on my pseudo-Legacy play with this deck vs. my friends' casual decks, where Chalicing for zero isn't strong and you have to Chalice for 1. When this deck has to Chalice for one instead of, rather than in addition to zero, it tends to get the Limp Black syndrome Tan talks about, where you go:

Swamp, Ritual, Hymn, burn for one, go.
Swamp, tap, tap, Sinkhole, go.
Swamp, tap, tap, Chalice at one, go.

And you wonder why you even drop third-turn lands at all. You had one of your '1cc cards' (Ritual) and yet it's still painfully obvious that your deck = 2cc.

Anyhow, with my first Chalice normally coming out for zero, this deck feels a lot more 'powered,' because Chalice is like this mini-Mox that is in reality a Mox-hater! (Especially on the play.) So, on the play, we get (with quite possibly the same exact hand as before):

Swamp, Chalice at zero, Ritual, Hymn, burn for one, go.
Swamp, tap, tap, Sinkhole on the only land (no Mox), go.
Swamp, tap, tap, Bob/Wretch/Fiend/Sinkhole/Hymn, go.

Now, we are still somewhat tied up at 2cc if we haven't draw into Duress or Ritual or even Waste/Strip; however, with Chalice coming down for zero we get one 2cc-card FURTHER into our hand. That makes all the difference, as next turn we'll draw two cards thanks to Confidant and swing for 2, shut down the yard and swing for 2, etc. Anyhow to others this may have been simple but it took me a while to move Chalice to the '0cc' column in my head. Chalice at one wrecks lots of decks, but zero on the play is great, and zero on the draw is still better than allowing some topdecked 0cc nonsense to accelerate my opponent into the one threat/tutor I wasn't able to nab this turn.

(4) Still mulling over Vial, Razormane/Jitte/Masticore (and I even considered Cursed Scroll here, but quickly decided that it's too situational and doesn't beat the way those other three do-- it's about as effective against creatures, but half as effective against black-hating strategies).

(5) Fiends are good, but adding any more maindeck would water down my creature base or my disruption base, making it better against some things and worse against others. The most probable cut would be -2 Hymn +2 Fiends, but Hymn is great so far in testing. Misdirection is the biggest problem, and I now have 6 discard effects to strip it before I Hymn, plus Sinkholes to bait it out with. I'm particularly fond of Fiend in conjunction with Hippie. When I can ensure that Hippie swings in once, it sort of snowballs from there for me.

(6) Twice while playing the Beacon/Doomsday deck, my opponent had Tinker in hand (he played DSC (and Tendrils) as alternate wins). I Duressed it away once while his manabase was in disarray, and a second time I think I had a Chalice on 0 or else a Null Rod and it was likewise deck. At one point when he had it in his hand, and I knew that he did, I actually had enough to Chalice for 3, plus the mana to do it if I committed. However, the game was over at that point as I think my attack that turn killed him.

(7) 13 Swamp (Lotus + Jet account for the others) is sweet. I'm having good draws as far as land goes, or moderate draws which Confidant smooths out. Twice against Belcher I drew a sideboarded-in Null Rod without the mana to play it, and both times Ritualed-out Confidant reveals a Swamp on the following turn.

(8) Belcher used Oxidize to remove Chalice and Null Rod post-board. Seeing as lots of decks also use Chain of Vapor, I feel good about the deck's chances against artifact removal post-board. Hurkyl's Recall and Echoing Truth are really best against me, as Chalice for 2 is too crippling to try except against Oath, so those are the ones to watch out for.

(9) I have been considering Mana Crypt, basically because I find that Sol Ring is fantastic with Wretch, allowing me to play my infinite 2cc stuff with 2 swamps while always leaving that invaluable 2 colorless open. It feels a lot like Vial in Vial Goblins in terms of how it frees up my mana. In fact, Vialing in a Wretch is a prime reason to use Vial. Which I'm also considering, but it hasn't been great in testing-- seems like the kind of card that's a bit far from my strategy at present, would require an overhaul to include.

(10) Withered Wretch.dec?

(11) I recently played against Gifts control. In the first games, I generally lost to Tinker unless I got lucky with Duresses, Hymns, Fiends, and Hyppies, or unless my opponent was mega manascrewed. The sideboarded games, however, were fantastically close, with me mostly having the edge. The plan was:

+2 Null Rod
+3 Edict
+1 Demonic (I used this once to find an Edict-- sweetness!)

-2 Sinkhole
-1 Negator
-1 Hymn
-1 Wretch

In retrospect I should not have taken out Wretch, as resolving him practically means game here. I remember winning one game by Chalicing for 3 when it become evident that taking Yawg's Will and Tinker offline would win it, but I went back later and realized I also could have gone for Wretch, removing Will and Tinker from the yard, where they were. Either way. (I knew my opponent had no counter backup.) This is one of those matchups that make me wish I had room to maindeck Null Rod.

(12) I also played a Madness deck. Aggro decks in general are bad news, but green is the calmest flavor, meaning that if I resolve a first-turn Hyppie with a decent hand otherwise, I probably win. On the draw with no first-turn play, it's tough. My SB plan was:

-2 Negator
-4 Chalice (can get one of their three pieces of power on the play, or go for 1 to nab 'Walla, but all in all it's not worth the freight)
-3 Hymn

+3 Edict
+3 Contagion
+2 Masticore
+1 Demonic Tutor

I kept some Negators in 'cause they're just so huge. First-turn Negator is still good, esp. if I have excess lands and all my opponent drops is Rootwalla. This configuration worked pretty well. I'll call this matchup a toss. All in all my gameplan is more cohesive, but the Mongrel/Wall/Wurm/Logic synergies are pretty ridiculous.

(13) And lastly, I played Stax. I played kind of poorly as I haven't played Stax that often and am not comfortable yet. Even so, I got pretty well handled game one (turn one Trini off Workshop doesn't help . . . at least it's restricted). SB:

+2 Null Rod
+3 Contagion
+3 Edict

-4 Negator (can't be sacrificing even more things!)
-4 Sinkhole (manascrew really isn't an option here, when it comes at the price of and a turn (usually))

This worked decently post-SB. Chalices are nice to just throw out there for zero if there's no other use for them. Getting down a Chalice on the play, Wasting a Workshop, or first-turn Hyppying are all strong options. I'd call this 60/40 in favor of Stax. Winnable with a little luck of the die/topdecks, but their board removal strategy clearly has the edge. The greatest thing about my deck, though, being a tempo deck, is that I'm equipped to take advantage of any little reprieves in the Stax player's disruption. This is a deck that loves getting 'land, go' turns thrown back at it, where it can sieze the tempo and steamroll from there. Each little tempo card creates more time for each little tempo card. It's a tenuous strategy (that's why we also have cards like Negator, which just hammer), but when it gets going, it's very strong against any deck.

Eric

[zeus-online]

(11) I recently played against Gifts control. In the first games, I generally lost to Tinker unless I got lucky with Duresses, Hymns, Fiends, and Hyppies, or unless my opponent was mega manascrewed.


That's what i've been saying the whole time, you know?

You absolutely need to be able to deal with DSC, getting randomly killed by a DSC is a huge problem in a format where like half the decks play Tinker/DSC.

/Zeus

[MonoE]

I'm considering -4 Sinkhole +4 Shadow of Doubt, but I really don't want to do it for a number of reasons. Shadow is no easier to cast, is a reactive answer meaning I have to play like a control deck when I have it, and that's not this deck-- it's supposed to be proactive disruption, not control in a strict sense. It would help against Tinker game one, though. Another strike against it is that it's a lot like a counter-- it's no good to search for after the fact, you need to be holding it when Tinker happens. Edict is an all-around better card, being good against other decks, too.

Heck maybe I'll go -2 Sinkhole, +2 Edict. I think Edict is a great solution. This deck is made to rip counters before playing important stuff. If my opponent has another creature out (Welder, most likely), that's tough shakes, but I'll side in Contagions in game two.

Or maybe I don't need to take out Sinkholes. Since Edicts account for one of my opponent's creatures, I could ostensibly take out two creatures with minimal impact (except less beatdown early-game vs. decks whose only creature is DSC). I could see -1 Negator, -1 Hyppie.

I actually tend to favor the Sinkhole solution. I can simply SB the Sinkholes and bring them back in in any match where Edicts are really dead, or where they'd be more helpful. Can't really think of a better way out right now. I don't want to start down the long path of infinite 3-ofs and 2-ofs.


Eric

PS I played a game against CS last night where my opponent Ensnaring Bridged me early. Ouch. But with Chalice and Null Rod I had the game locked down, a few times his hand filled up and I swung in for six or eight damage, but eventually he ran out of cards-- draw spells hurt him!

[zeus-online]

Don't run shadow of doubt its crap....you're not likely to have BB open tur 1/2, so its a bad solution against tinker.

With edict you can just tap out every turn and still be ready when the fat man arrives

/Zeus

[MonoE]

Opted to down the Hyppie count (a slow card I only ever want to see one of, and which will either win me the game singlehandedly or be worthless) in favor of upping the Sinkhole back to three. New list:

//Creatures (16)
4 Wretch
4 Bob
4 Negator
2 Hyppie
2 Fiend

//Disruption (17)
4 Chalice
4 Hymn
4 Duress
3 Sinkhole
2 Edict

//Consistency/Mana (1)
Consult

//Mana (26)
1 Sol Ring
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Dark Ritual
13 Swamp

//Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Contagion
2 Masticore
2 Dystopia
2 Null Rod
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Demonic Tutor

I noticed that having multiple Sinkholes can be bad, too, in this fast environment they are just too hard to unload in multiples, and often not worth it when you take a close look at the losses/gains of spending a turn on sorcery-speed LD. Three has been working out for me-- I still get one sometimes, and sometimes it's important, but now I have three topdeck/hold-back answers to DSC (incl. Consultation) with two more (incl. Tutor) coming in from the board.

I put the Dystopias back in because (a) I have room now, and they're next on the list of necessary; (b) I played an Oath match and realized it's unwinnable without them. With them, it's still not the greatest, but they're a good topdeck. I mean, the games I played were long and came down to topdecks a lot of the time. Leyline was really good here, as I got my opponent down to six cards in library, but I had only drawn one of my Edicts by then, and he had two Oaths out. Two Oaths hurts, that's where Dystopia could come in.

Eric

[SonataOfTheCathedral]

I still think you should replace your Sinkholes with Null Rods, because with Null Rod your more likely to shut off even more mana sources. Give you better game as well if you are on the draw, because Chalice is less of a bomb in those situations.

[MonoE]

Null Rods are very good, this may be a good way to include them. Poor Sinkhole. Well, Wasteland + Strip may just be enough-- it's not like LD is a long-term strategy, especially with Brainstorm + fetch ruling the roost. It is at most a slight gain in tempo. With Null Rod I shut off lots of mana sources, as you said. Plus it's colorless instead of black, which really pushes my deck into the no-mana-screw zone, with only 8 cards left! It's pretty hard to draw seven that don't have what you need, mana-wise, except when it's Wasteland, Wasteland, Dark Ritual.

It is also good, as you say, to have a plan on the draw. Chalice is admittedly a lot weaker then, at least for the first two turns until you set up and can afford to Chalice for 1, at which point it's back online as legitimate disruption, which doubles (in the face of Oxidize and Chain of V., at least) as its own protection.

The addition of Null Rod makes Echoing Truth even better against this deck's disruption. However, I can cherry-pick that card with any of six targeted or six random discard effects. Also, its impact against Chalice is less relevant because no matter what, Chalice at zero on the play robs the player of those all-important first Moxen/other Moxen-like producers/Lotus drops. After I get another whack at their hand/land, or play a creature, they then play their second land and bounce Chalice. Best case scenario. As for Echoing Truth v. Null Rod, also not great, it opens up mana for one turn (but you spent two to do it), and there will not be more than one Null Rod in play (or if for some reason there are, it's not a two-for-one, they don't stack).

Eric

[3eowulf]

As a player of monoblack myself, i felt necessary to splash red in the deck to deal with workshop.dec, which was one of my worst mu (probably even more than oath).

I'd like to know how do you play against any prison deck with your stricly black list.