[Premium Article] Grim Long Manual, Chapter 1

[Smmenen]

http://www.starcitygames.com/pages/articlefinder.php?keyword=Stephen+Menendian

I've begun the Oscar Tan style trek into the Grim Long primer.   I think its going to be worth it. 

Enjoy.

Stephen

[Moxlotus]

In my experience with Pitch Long and Grim Long, Necro is the "go to" card to tutor for.  I win way more games with Necro than with Will.  I'm confidant in saying it is by far the absolute hardest card in the deck to play correctly.  You are so right in that there is no set rule on how many to draw.  If you play it on turn 1, depending on the opponent's deck, you may have to set yourself up for a turn 3 kill.

You are so right on something I have recently discovered (it took me a while).  You cannot plan ahead if you don't have all your information.  Too often I would plan ahead (detailed) a turn or 2 during my opponent's turn, but I would have a BS in hand.  That's stupid and a waste of mental energy.

Your count on Desire lethality is the exact one we figured out.  Spot on.

This was a great article and I look forward to the next one. 

[Smmenen]

Thanks for the feedback! 

Where do you stand on the Ancestral debate I discussed?

I hope you read the Necropotence paragraph that read "the most frequent error."  That was the omitted paragraph that was added back into the piece. 

[Moxlotus]

I'll bait with Ancestral all day long.

Ancestral v. Duress.  If I mull or if I'm on the draw, I'll turn 1 Ancestral unless I'm afraid of something or I'm setting up for a turn 2 Necro or something.  If I'm on the play with a hand of 7 (unknown opponent/deck) I'll usually duress. 

I'd keep the hand JDizzle would have thrown back.  I'd stir about it in my chair, but I think I'd keep it in the end.  4 cards by the time you have another turn, you should see another land or on color mox and tutor/draw7/necro.

I find myself at odds with you on how much I value Ancestral.  I don't remember if I've ever cast a grim tutor for Ancestral.  Imp&vamp sure, but I most of the time when I grim and I need gas, I'm getting Tinker or necro.  That said, most of my experience comes from Pitch Long so it my experience is slightly different (mainly no regrowth and unwastable lands).

[BreathWeapon]

Ancestral Recall is just a Brainstorm with benefits, I never find myself in situations where I want to resolve a Grim Tutor for Ancestral Recall, if I have to burn a Ritual to power out a Tutor then it had better be for something that is going to end the game, Yawgmoth's Will or Necropotence, or something that is going to get me back in the game, Tinker->Memory Jar. Ancestral in desperate situations just coughs up mana acceleration far too often, and I can't stand Regrowth in this deck. About the only time I tutor for Ancestral Recall is when I'm setting up with a Vampiric, Imperial or Mystical.

Are you going to address how you deal with decks that board in 4 Extract and win against the lone Tendrils? Are people SBing in Darksteel Colossus? Are people SBing in another Tendrils? Are people SBing in Force of Will on the draw or leaving in Duress on the play? Or are people just flipping them the bird and going for it?

[Mr. Type 4]

Ancestral Recall is just a Brainstorm with benefits

BLASPHEMY!  lol.  Ancestral is super-extra awesome because you can Ancestral and THEN Brainstorm.  It's pretty sucky to have to brainstorm through cards you saw already.  In any case, I think you guys are underestimating the power of Ancestral in this deck.  3 cards with no symmetry is pretty insane. Jimmy,  LordHomerCat, played an Ancestral in Top 8 at Rochester that yielded Black Lotus, LED, Yawg Will!  That's pretty busted.  In anycase, Grim Long is so chock full of good cards that Ancestral throws you something savage almost 85% of the time, and at worst plows you that much closer to finding the topdeck you need.

[LordHomerCat]

That was one hell of an Ancestral, especially with a storm count of like 15 already =]  I don't usually tutor for ancestral right away (Lotus is my first target for tutors in maybe 85% of games, with another 10% I already have it in hand), but its an insane target if you're both topdecking in the midgame after your first volley gets stopped.  Its basically a one-sided refill and win the game card.  Brainstorm is good, yes, but Ancestral is just beyond compare.

Steve, write about the ESG Kill!  I still want to see it done, as I don't think its really feasible, and have never heard of it actually happening.  Is it just a myth, or have you ACTUALLY beat someone down with infinite spirit guide beats?

[ErkBek]

Great article Steve. You did a great job explaining a lot of intricacies that are normally difficult to spell out. On to this hand……

City of Brass
Duress
Ancestral Recall
Dark Ritual
Lion's Eye Diamond
And three-mana spells

One thing that you seem to frequently neglect is that your opponent may be playing something other than Mana Drain control decks.  Your analysis seemed to completely ignore the possibility of something like chalice of the void, wasteland, or 2sphere.  I’m also going to assume that your opening grip has only 2 more 1-costers in it in your opening 7, because otherwise that’s 8 cards.  I’m also guessing one of the 1-costers is a brainstorm or top-deck tutor. In tournament play vs. an unknown opponent, I would keep this hand on the play, but not on the draw.  I agree with your analysis knowing that your opponent is running Mana Drains, but against a random opponent I’d play like this.

Turn 1 – Land, LED, Ancestral

To me it seems important that I at least get to play my ancestral.  Against a deck like stax, oath, or fish you may not be given that opportunity to find more permanent mana sources.  A simple, unduressable wasteland or a 2 threat hand will shut down your ancestral. If ancestral resolves, great you should hit another on-color source or at least some bomb that will let you kill them next turn, possibly with duress too.  Against mana drains, if they FoW it, then you will be in an okay position after duressing them next turn then following that up with a BS or topdeck tutor.

On the draw, I’d prob mull this hand.  Just about every card in stax owns this hand and a chalice for 1 is definitely game over no matter what deck played it.  This hand has serious issues against all non-Mana Drain decks, including the combo mirror.  This hand is also marginal vs. drains, but knowing that I was playing vs. drains I’d prob end up keeping it.

Just my 2 cents.  I look forward to the next article.

[ashiXIII]

Great article Steve. You did a great job explaining a lot of intricacies that are normally difficult to spell out. On to this hand……

City of Brass
Duress
Ancestral Recall
Dark Ritual
Lion's Eye Diamond
And three-mana spells

One thing that you seem to frequently neglect is that your opponent may be playing something other than Mana Drain control decks.  Your analysis seemed to completely ignore the possibility of something like chalice of the void, wasteland, or 2sphere.  I’m also going to assume that your opening grip has only 2 more 1-costers in it in your opening 7, because otherwise that’s 8 cards.  I’m also guessing one of the 1-costers is a brainstorm or top-deck tutor. In tournament play vs. an unknown opponent, I would keep this hand on the play, but not on the draw.  I agree with your analysis knowing that your opponent is running Mana Drains, but against a random opponent I’d play like this.

Turn 1 – Land, LED, Ancestral

To me it seems important that I at least get to play my ancestral.  Against a deck like stax, oath, or fish you may not be given that opportunity to find more permanent mana sources.  A simple, unduressable wasteland or a 2 threat hand will shut down your ancestral. If ancestral resolves, great you should hit another on-color source or at least some bomb that will let you kill them next turn, possibly with duress too.  Against mana drains, if they FoW it, then you will be in an okay position after duressing them next turn then following that up with a BS or topdeck tutor.

On the draw, I’d prob mull this hand.  Just about every card in stax owns this hand and a chalice for 1 is definitely game over no matter what deck played it.  This hand has serious issues against all non-Mana Drain decks, including the combo mirror.  This hand is also marginal vs. drains, but knowing that I was playing vs. drains I’d prob end up keeping it.

Just my 2 cents.  I look forward to the next article.

When he said "And three mana spells" he meant that the rest of his hand was filled with spells that cost 3 mana.

[ErkBek]

When he said "And three mana spells" he meant that the rest of his hand was filled with spells that cost 3 mana.

hmmm....that changes things I guess.

[Smmenen]

When he said "And three mana spells" he meant that the rest of his hand was filled with spells that cost 3 mana.

hmmm....that changes things I guess.

How?

[Gabethebabe]

Steve, write about the ESG Kill!  I still want to see it done, as I don't think its really feasible, and have never heard of it actually happening.  Is it just a myth, or have you ACTUALLY beat someone down with infinite spirit guide beats?

I did this in testing. I had an opening of Sapphire, Brainstorm, Jet, Ritual, Ritual, Lotus, LED, Mind´s Desire, desiring for 8. I quickly scooped up and thought later: let´s try that again and go infinite. I think I tested 4-5 times with this start and I went infinite EVERY TIME.

It goes like this:
- Desire for a couple
- Find Regrowth, regrowth desire, desire for more.
- Timetwister
- Regrow TT and TT again
- Repeat
Keep on regrowing TT, cast Desire if you can to cap stuff out of your lib, until you have 52 cards removed from the game. Then you have a proven loop. You need Regrowth, Timetwister, Time Walk and to pull this off (normally you´d generate mana with Hurkyll´s Recall, but you can do it as well with LED, Lotus and Petal).

If your opponent plays FoW, you need Xantid protection or its gets hard (you need to Duress the shit out of your opponent after every TT).

it´s not that hard if you practise a little.

[Mr. Nightmare]

After hearing Steve say the loop existed, I went back and tested, assuming I'm on the draw, playing Oath, and they turn 1 Extract Tendrils, Turn 2 extract Wish.  I saw how fast I could get to infinite, and I was amazed to see it was pretty much instantly, if you play like you're going off, but careful.  Yawgmoth's Will does a great job getting unnecessary cards out of the way (remember to Time Walk BEFORE you Will, and not during), as does Desire, as stated.  You don't need to have 8 cards left in your library to go infinite, often you can have more than 12, if you have a ton of mana (you want pretty much every source you can get) you can Brainstorm and Recall into what you need.  As Gabe said, it helps to have your opponent covered in bees while doing this, because every time you Twist, they have 7 new potentially lethal cards in their grip, and having to find Duresses isn't exactly fun and easy.  I reccommend any serious Grimlong players test a few games at least with this win, as well as testing how to play through a (or multiple) Chalice on the table.

[AJFirst]

Or my favorite, Chalices at 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5, Trinsiphere, Crucible/Strip, two Tormod's Crypts, and triple counter back-up.

Oh, and you have no cards in hand nor permanants....or a graveyard.....or any clothes on.

Sorry, I haven't slept and it's almost 7. Anyway, nice article Steve. I like the numbers involved and percentages within playing the deck. Threat density, number of outs for a certain peice of hate.

I too would like to see the ESG beats in action.

Anyway, Oscar did a lot for classic control, so I hope you can do the same for Combo, hopefully ending better as well, and getting more in depth than Tan did. Looking forward to the rest of the series.
-AJ

[ErkBek]

hmmm....that changes things I guess.

How?

Well, it really depends on what the 3 mana cards are. For example, if one is a Grim Tutor, you're sitting really well because you've got a ritual and LED+Duress. Your hand also doesn't get totally owned by chalice for 1 anymore, largely since you have LED to combo with Will for mana. I've got to say, having a 2C mana base would really make me much more comfortable keeping this hand on the draw. 

I'd only keep this hand on the draw if 1 of the 3 mana spells was Grim Tutor, otherwise I'd send it back.