Discussion: Control vs Storm

[bdg4life]

  With the recent rise in popularity of storm based decks, and some of the formats most recognizable names introducing newer twists on versions of these decks, what sideboard options should control(slaver,gifts) think about using?  Some options I have been considering are listed:
1. Duress
2. Sphere of Resistance
3. Arcane Lab
4. Mystic Remora
5. Brain Freeze (Eric Becker's tech)
6. Leyline of the void
7. Stifle
8. Tormod's Crypt
  Each of these options seem viable to slow down combo, but which one would tilt the game into controls favor? Are there other cards that can fill the bill? Which option does the storm player fear the most?
  Please Discuss.

[diopter]

Don't forget Chalice of the Void, especially in Slaver when it can be dropped for 0 and then welded later. I believe that CotV can be more potent than 2Sphere in Slaver as an anti-combo answer - which doesn't necessarily mean that it's the most optimal answer to combo.

[Demonic Attorney]

The problem I see with some of these options is that they're too narrow.  If you leave an alternate avenue open for combo, as long as they can build up and use their resources effectively, they'll take it.  For example, Leyline and Tormod's Crypt shut off Yawgmoth's Will, which can be a big deal.  But other avenues like Mind's Desire, Bargain, Hurkyl's Recalling Moxes, or chaining draw 7's are still totally available. 

Similarly, Stifle will rarely do anything significant for you before it's too late, because once combo has amassed enough resources to kill you, it can usually also plow through any last-minute defenses you might be able to throw out.  For example, a combo deck drawing 14 cards off Bargain will probably Duress you before killing you, and one going off with Will can probably spare a tutor to make sure their kill spell won't be stopped.  This is also not even accounting for the likely presence of Xantid Swarm post-board.

Brain Freeze might not be as much help, either.  Once an opponent has enough storm for Freeze to matter, they're liklely just going to kill you that turn without the need to draw additional cards.  Mystic Remora runs into similar problems, in that when combo plays enough spells in one turn for Remora's effect to matter, they've likely built up such a huge advantage that the 1-3 castable instants you draw won't be enough.

Cards like ArcLab, Sphere of Resistance, and to a lesser extent Chalice and maybe even Duress seem like the strongest choices here.

[ashiXIII]

Arcane lab is actually a lot better than people think. Combo only has 2 ways to win around it. Bounce it, or Tinker -> DSC. Usually, Combo only has one bounce spell, so if you can counter that, and answer Tinker, you literally have the game locked up. Duress is a good card also, but with the high threat density of Long decks, and the 4X Brainstorm, it's not as strong as some of the alternatives. Extract is still a possibility, but it's pretty bad against combo decks with 2X Tendrils, or another win condition post 'board. Also, with Pitch Long as big as it is, all 7 of their pitch counters can counter Extract. I think in Gifts, some combination of Duress/Arcane Lab/T-Crypt is best, and probably the same for Slaver, although Slaver can also support sphere of Resistance. Also important to note is that if you leave a bounce spell in, Arcane Lab doesn't stop you from winning with a combo finish ala Will.

[Moxlotus]

Sphere of resistance is hands down the best card for Slaver to board against Pitchlong.  Lab will be ok for game 2, but if you win game 2 (since you lost game 1) you will be on the draw for game 3.  Lab costs too much and you will lose the match.  Sphere of resistance is the toughest card to combo through (besides trinisphere) and only costs 2 mana.  GWS almost did an audible for the Champs when we saw the amount of Spheres being used in earlier tournaments.

[zeus-online]

I like cards that do double-duty, so i'd probably go with Chalice and/or duress, and maybe a couple of crypts (Crypts dosnt "kill" combo, but it stops will, which should buy you a turn or so)

/Zeus

[warble]

Leyline of the Void has been gold for me in CS against combo.  If I'm on the play, I will prefer tormod's crypt, arcane lab, chalice of the void and duress.

[Bubbydan]

  How about Jester's Cap, especially in slaver. With combo having few acutual win conditions even one activation is enough to cripple them, and in slaver it can always be welded back in.
  I know the 6 total mana is a it high, but in welded in and you only need 2 mana.

Dan

[never]

  How about Jester's Cap, especially in slaver. With combo having few acutual win conditions even one activation is enough to cripple them, and in slaver it can always be welded back in.
  I know the 6 total mana is a it high, but in welded in and you only need 2 mana.

Dan

In order for this to work, you basically need a turn one welder and a turn two way to discard jester's cap into your graveyard, with still 2 extra mana to be able to activate it. That requires quite a few cards to all work correctly together. I think that is a bit slow and unreliable.

[aosquirrels]

All of the choices mentioned so far have their own merits.  Stifle AND Tormod's Crypt are my two weapons of choice vs. Tendrils decks.  My Slaver build has one Crypt MD and two in the board. This gives me a shot, albeit not a great one, in game one.  Then in game 2 I board in two more Crypts and three Stifles.  In the two matches I had vs. GrimLong at GenCon this year I tied both matches never having the chance to go to game 3.  Since the frequency of turn one kills are on the rise, it is very important to have answers in your opening hand.  Would you rather play Volcanic Island - T. Crypt and maybe have a Stifle in hand or would you rather play Mox  - V. Island - Sol Ring - Arcane Lab?

Jester's Cap is best used against other decks.... like Oath.

Just my two cents worth.

[Everrid1234]

Stifle is ok but not a game breaker. In 75% of all cases Duress is played by the Storm player before they play Tendrils, Desire or Memory Jar.
Arcane Lab is very strong but costs 3 mana.
Duress is a killer vs. combo. All Graveyard hate is very good, hindering Will and Threshold. Best imo is Tormod's Crypt because it can work instantly if its not on the starting hand.

You forgot to mention Orim's Chant which is also a combo killer being played after some "stormcount up- Duress" by the Storm player.

What wrecks combo also is a Null Rod but this one is harder to protect.

[Komatteru]

What wrecks combo also is a Null Rod but this one is harder to protect.

Eh, not so much.  It doesn't have nearly that large of an effect on 2c builds, as they have lands that don't suck.  It's amazing what happens when you play with real lands instead of Gemstone Mines.  Cabal Ritual is a big fix against Rods.  It's ok, but it bashes Control Slaver in the face waaaay more than it does combo.  Do you really want to turn off your most potent game-ending weapon (Mindslaver)?

Sphere is the best.  Arcane Lab is really good, but it costs 3, and it hurts you a lot.  The fact is, you have to have some sort of win condition on the table first, otherwise you have to be REALLY careful about casting another sorcery for the rest of the game.  The only thing you can play on your turn is Tinker to get Mindslaver, so that if they attempt to bounce your Lab, you can still screw them over.  After you have the Slaver down, then you can play Welders and attack, but you can see how long this takes.

Lab is meh against 5c combo because of REB.  I put that in my 5c Grim builds because it allowed me to blow up Lab in response to a my EOT draw spell.

I'd go with Sphere of Resistance.  Crypt and Leyline and all that jazz just cut off will, and if your combo opponent can't win without Will, he's pretty terrible.

[wethepeople]

i have played versus long and they got right by Cotv-0, how? i dont really know, but it surely didnt stop them from hitting me with a game winning tendrils. but, i have always found great luck in Stifle and Meddling Mage.

on MWS i drew three mages versus G/L game two, i dropped one on first turn for tendrils, second turn for Tinker, third turn for Will. definitely the most ridiculous hand i've ever gotten. usually that hand would suck, but three mages a pearl and two fetches versus Long was something i was willing to keep.

[Everrid1234]

JDizzle,

for a Gifts or Slaver player the Null Rod is indeed no option, I thought of cards which can be in the SB of "any" control deck.

Null Rod would slow down a lot (much more then Chalice 0, Chalice 1 is better here: shutting down draw, tutors and mana boost).

About graveyard hate: I read it so often that competent players can play around graveyard hate not being dependant on Y. Will. It is right that there are other ways to get the needed storm count. But how many games are won by Will? I think no matter at which "Tendrils of Agony"-build you look at this should be at least 60 % (20% Rebuild, 20% DSC, maybe some random Desire, Bargain etc.). Going off with Rituals and winning without using Yawgmoth's Will is very hard. So shutting down or weakening the Will is a huge help imo.
That a competent player can still win means that its much harder now. And this is what you want as the opponent.

I agree that Spheres are one of the best Storm killers.

Lab is bad because of REB? I think a 5c Grim build is uncommon. Normally the only option for Tendrils decks to get rid of Lab is chain of Vapor.




wethepeople,

Meddling is cool against Tendrils builds. But i always say "Will" for the first Mage since him playing a Will often means he has the ability to find Chain of Vapor.

[+t]

Honestly, I'd think Sphere of Resistance and REB/Pyroblast are the correct cards to side in against combo.  One of the defining factors of these new combo decks is their reliance on blue utility cards such as Force of Will and Hurkyl's Recall/Chain of Vapor.  These 5-7 cards in combo can deal with your spheres.  REB/Pyroblast is then the answer to their answer to your answer.  Further, its randomly good against alot of combo's bombs (Ancestral, Draw-7's, Tinker).

[sundering jerk]

I usually side in 2 tormods (I have one maindeck), 2REBs, 2duress and I have a single chalice. I've won many a game from a turn one duress and with the rebs and chalice a duress definitely buys you time to get a drain on line.

I tested pyrostatic Pillar(which is a lot easier to play with then lab) and it works very very well.


Plus you shouldn't worry about Longs. I saw a very good player lose to goblins piloting it. hehe
Which reminds me decks with daze do well somehow

[wethepeople]

i have countered yawgmoth's will with daze once using my old mono blue fish deck. In response the message log read "Player Lost"  :lol:

i have tried to get out arcane lab out on various occasions, but it seems like i cant even get it out in time, i bet if i actually drew one of my fives moxes or maybe even lotus it could happen, but thats just my luck.

Question- is Chalice at 1 better than at 0 in this situation?

[never]

I read it so often that competent players can play around graveyard hate not being dependant on Y. Will. It is right that there are other ways to get the needed storm count. But how many games are won by Will? I think no matter at which "Tendrils of Agony"-build you look at this should be at least 60 % (20% Rebuild, 20% DSC, maybe some random Desire, Bargain etc.). Going off with Rituals and winning without using Yawgmoth's Will is very hard. So shutting down or weakening the Will is a huge help imo.
That a competent player can still win means that its much harder now. And this is what you want as the opponent.

I think you're underestimating how easy it is to setup and win with Bargain. Most players go for yawgmouths will first, because it is a no brainer win. Play some disposable mana, play a tutor, replay mana, replay tutor, and tendrils.

But a Bargain win is just as easy when you throw it down and draw 10-15 cards. And all you need is 3 extra mana than you normally would if you were tutoring up will.

Don't forget, the old rector tendrils decks used Bargain as their primary fuel for setting up a tendrils. Will was often secondary for that deck, simply because once bargain hits, you're going to win anyway, unless you've lost too much life.

And if the entire purpose of Crypt is to just shutdown will, why not just run extract and shut it down totally?

[Everrid1234]

Since the thread is about Control vs. Storm I think each Combo player will board the Bargain out, leaving Desire in which is much better here.
Running in a Mana Drain vs. Slaver casting a Bargain is.....
Casting a Bargain means that you put all your resources in this action, in many cases having no Duress to save it, one counter can mean good game then.

And you call Will a no-brainer-win, this is also my opinion. But no-brainer means that it is the most easy way to win and shutting this way down means that you have weakened the deck a lot what is the aim.

Rector Tendrils aim was the Bargain but its a completely different deck and nearly no one plays it since its easy to hate.

Extract is a good idea. Since Welder can make Crypt reusable but Crypt can be bounced i think they are similar good choices.
Jester's Cap is nice for Slaver but maybe too expensive in some cases because you need either fast mana and hardcast it which means that you have to rely on FoW for a turn or you need Welder...Thirst which may take some turns.

The Problem about P. Pillar is that you suffer a lot from it and Tendrils sucks life, so he lets you go down to 10 and casts a mini tendrils.

I think Chalice 1 is better since some of the accelerants cost 1, you get Ritual, you get a lot of their draw, 2 tutors and CoV. Chalice 0 only gets the Moxen

[never]

The threat of drain is obviously an issue, but with xantid swarm and duress, isn't siding out bargain (your next best win condition after will), a bad idea? Especially knowing that some of the most common anti combo hate, is that which limits the effectiveness of Will.

I don't think you can make the assumption that a combo player will side out one of their win conditions for fear of drain.

[Purple Hat]

against CS I'd side out necro before I'd side out bargain.  at least with necro you can make the argument "I have to pass the turn to win and they could slave me that turn."  if you can't protect bargain against a drain deck there's always the simple solution of waiting til you can.....it's not like CS is gonna haul off and kill you on turn 2.

[Komatteru]

against CS I'd side out necro before I'd side out bargain.  at least with necro you can make the argument "I have to pass the turn to win and they could slave me that turn."  if you can't protect bargain against a drain deck there's always the simple solution of waiting til you can.....it's not like CS is gonna haul off and kill you on turn 2.

Still wrong.  If you get Slaved, you're pretty much fucked anyway.  Siding out Necro and/or Bargain is ALWAYS incorrect, regardless of the matchup.  This is one of those "absolutes" people seem to dislike.

[wethepeople]

so let's review:

Mystic Remora just gives you 10 cards, allowing you to get the card needed, so this doesnt necessarily finish the job.

Duress- you cant rely on Duress to win you the game, but it certainly does a thing or two.

Stifle (my usual choice)- Very good if it resolves.

Pyrostatic Pillar- it worked for me in TMWA

Jester's Cap- too slow

Meddling Mage (on Tendrils)- unless they bounce it, you should be good.

Tormod's Crypt- stops Yawg Will, but thats not their only win condition.

Leyline of the Void- stops Yawg Will, as well as be played turn 0.

Orim's Chant (something that used to work for me)- Stops storm, Will, and holds off DSC for a turn (with kicker)

Chalice of the Void- can be gotten around, but good at 1.

Null Rod- a tough card to get around, but it can be done.

Sphere of Resistance- worked rather well when i tested it.

Arcane Lab- great, but a little slow.

Now like all of these (besides Stifle, Duress, Chant, etc) can be bounced by Chain of Vapor, but dont let that cause you to ignore the card. the only one i found no luck in was Jester's Cap, it was far too slow.

//wtp.

[brianpk80]

The most ferocious card for Storm to play around in my experience is Root Maze.
I use it in my Oath build, but even for Slaver/Gifts having serious trouble with combo, I could see siding in a Tropical Island (to fetch for) and a pair of Root Mazes while on the play.  A first turn Root Maze will usually buy you (no joke) 6 to 7 turns against combo; it shuts down the very essence of the deck which is to chain draw spells and mana producuers and achieve a lethal storm count.  Root Maze in play means that each Mox in the opponent's hand is either 1 storm or 1 mana (next turn), but never both.  No one wants to Yawgwill to bring a tapped Lotus and Fetchland back into play.  Memory Jar comes in tapped, as does everything granted by it.  And 7 cards in hand usually isn't enough to win post-Necro with a Root Maze in play, because the bomb(s) in hand aren't going to function correctly.  Meanwhile, the effect tends to be assymetrical; if you've thrown down a Mox or two, you are starting at 2-3 mana to their 0, and while they clumsily try to play around the (un-Blastable, un-Rebuildable) Root Maze, you follow up by drawing cards, building counters, and coupling the disruption with a Sphere of Resistance or Arcane Lab. 

And on that note, I find Tormod's Crypt and Leyline of the Void to be marginal at best.  Good Long players know that they have several different paths to victory (Desire, Bargain, Necro, Chain of Vapor, Chain Draw-7's) and won't hesitate to switch gears for the win. 

-BPK

[wethepeople]

i completely forgot about root maze, i should remember that when i edit my sideboard on my birdshit deck.